The problem is simple: it's home runs and .OPS

[GreenSox]

Or get a RF with power and move Eaton back to CF.

And then the Sox would have a mediocre CF.

Yes Eaton doesn't have ideal RF power but it's his best position ( probably would be good in left too).

The gaping HR hole is the easiest to plug- DH. Get a real DH and OBP and defense from CF and the Sox are much better. No reason to downgrade the defense again.

Edited September 23, 2016 by GreenSox

[Bob Sacamano]

And then the Sox would have a mediocre CF.

Yes Eaton doesn't have ideal RF power but it's his best position ( probably would be good in left too).

The gaping HR hole is the easiest to plug- DH. Get a real DH and OBP and defense from CF and the Sox are much better. No reason to downgrade the defense again.

 

You make it sound so easy. Who is available in free agency that is a high power and high obp threat that the Sox can realistically sign? Before answering just remember that 6/$68 million is the biggest contraft they've given out.

Edited September 23, 2016 by soxfan2014

[Hawkfan]

He's already on soxtalk. Posts under the handle greg775

 

I knew I liked that guy.

[OmarComing25]

I think the problem with the offense is, as has been stated, striking out too much. This team does not seem to value not giving up outs. Not striking out means forcing the opposing defense to make a play to get an out. Considering that a given player's defensive value is typically increased by not screwing up, there is value to putting the ball in play. By striking out, an offense is limiting the amount of times that the opposing defense must make a play to record an out, thereby limiting the number of times they will screw up. Not striking out puts pressure on the other team and gives your offense more opportunities to score runs. This is a skill the White Sox should value more than they currently do, including teaching it throughout the system.

The Sox are 18th in the MLB in K% this year and were 18th last year. They actually strike out less often than average, but that clearly hasn't helped. The bottom 5 walk rate they've had (haven't had a walk rate in the top 20 since 2009) is far more concerning.

[Greg Hibbard]

You are telling me they play in harder ball parks to hit homeruns... not sure what your point is.

 

Those teams won because of their pithing and defense and other factors.

 

 

If you are saying the Sox need to get home run hitters because they play in a home run hitting park - again I say that's what they have been trying to do and its failing.

 

So really what you are advocating is for them to do the same thing they been failing at.

 

What southside posted showed pretty clearly that HR's isn't the reason the Sox aren't scoring as much.

 

No, what southside posted was the OBP has a bigger correlation to winning than home runs do, but he posted that without really taking into account something like park factor.

 

I would argue that in the Cell, home runs play a bigger factor than they do in other parks, and when you look at the success of the Giants and the Royals, the reason they win was because they designed their team for their stadium. Other teams can't win when they go in and try to hit home runs, so if they get a bunch of doubles and triples hitters and use speed and pitching to their advantage, they're going to come up aces a lot of the time.

 

I'm really not sure I'd look at the failing careers of Adam Dunn and Adam LaRoche and categorically write off the idea of going out and acquiring guys who hit for power, but if that's your take on it, good work, I suppose.

 

So... if we accept the OBP argument, I'll ask the question I asked upthread and didn't get an answer to:

 

If we are moving forward offensively with Abreu/Anderson/Cabrera/Frazier/Eaton and their OBP is an average of .327 (which would be 8th in MLB in OBP) and if a top OBP team is required to compete and a top five OBP percentage is north of .328 - what combination of 2B/OF/DH/C in 2017 that fits into our payroll and takes into account available players is going to get you an AVERAGE OBP of .328+ from those four positions?

 

If the answer is "the White Sox are just f***ed" then why aren't we dumping EVERYONE and starting over?

 

 

[Dick Allen]

The average amount of HR for an AL team this year is 188. There is one team that has hit more than the average amount of HRs and scored fewer than the runs scored average. Tampa Bay. The only team who has hit less than 188 HRs and scored more than the AL average is Cleveland and they have hit 180 HR.

 

More HR=more runs. Especially where the Sox play half their games. Except for HR rates, it's actually been pitcher friendly the last several seasons.

 

The White Sox are in the process of developing higher OBP guys. Right now, those types aren't easy to acquire. You can make up for an OBP challenged offense by hitting balls over the wall.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Dick Allen

[harkness99]

I'm not saying hitting more homeruns isn't helpful...

 

I'm saying it's the wrong thing to focus on.

 

 

Bull pen bull pen bull pen and on base percentage.

 

 

Edited September 23, 2016 by harkness

[Greg Hibbard]

I'm not saying hitting more homeruns isn't helpful...

 

I'm saying it's the wrong thing to focus on.

 

 

Bull pen bull pen bull pen and on base percentage.

 

So would you answer my OBP question, then?

 

 

[Dam8610]

The Sox are 18th in the MLB in K% this year and were 18th last year. They actually strike out less often than average, but that clearly hasn't helped. The bottom 5 walk rate they've had (haven't had a walk rate in the top 20 since 2009) is far more concerning.

 

Of the top 5 offenses in the AL in terms of runs scored, 4 strike out less than the White Sox, and the 5th leads the AL in walk rate by nearly a full percentage point. Walking is definitely important, and is something that can be helped by not striking out.

[greg775]

The White Sox the last 10 years or so do seem to win only on the occasions we blast 3 or more homers and get the requisite strong pitching. You are right in that we need home run hitters.

 

HOWEVER ... there is no power in baseball anymore, so we're gonna have to get used to this. We still have one guy and one only who can hit A LOT of home runs. That's Frazier.

[Dam8610]

No, what southside posted was the OBP has a bigger correlation to winning than home runs do, but he posted that without really taking into account something like park factor.

 

I would argue that in the Cell, home runs play a bigger factor than they do in other parks, and when you look at the success of the Giants and the Royals, the reason they win was because they designed their team for their stadium. Other teams can't win when they go in and try to hit home runs, so if they get a bunch of doubles and triples hitters and use speed and pitching to their advantage, they're going to come up aces a lot of the time.

 

I'm really not sure I'd look at the failing careers of Adam Dunn and Adam LaRoche and categorically write off the idea of going out and acquiring guys who hit for power, but if that's your take on it, good work, I suppose.

 

So... if we accept the OBP argument, I'll ask the question I asked upthread and didn't get an answer to:

 

If we are moving forward offensively with Abreu/Anderson/Cabrera/Frazier/Eaton and their OBP is an average of .327 (which would be 8th in MLB in OBP) and if a top OBP team is required to compete and a top five OBP percentage is north of .328 - what combination of 2B/OF/DH/C in 2017 that fits into our payroll and takes into account available players is going to get you an AVERAGE OBP of .328+ from those four positions?

 

If the answer is "the White Sox are just f***ed" then why aren't we dumping EVERYONE and starting over?

 

To the bolded portion, I have the following points:

 

1) Why would a top 8 OBP team not be good enough to win, especially with a dominant pitching staff? Why is the arbitrary Top 5 OBP team that you picked necessary?

 

2) Please explain how you calculate the average you list above.

 

3) I find your presentation method a bit dishonest. Yes, a .327 OBP would be 8th in MLB, however, you neglect to mention that a .330 OBP, just 3 tenths of a percentage point higher, would give the vaunted top 5 OBP offense which you seek. Which, again, leads me back to point 1.

[Dick Allen]

The White Sox the last 10 years or so do seem to win only on the occasions we blast 3 or more homers and get the requisite strong pitching. You are right in that we need home run hitters.

 

HOWEVER ... there is no power in baseball anymore, so we're gonna have to get used to this. We still have one guy and one only who can hit A LOT of home runs. That's Frazier.

Power came back in a pretty big way this season.

[Greg Hibbard]

To the bolded portion, I have the following points:

 

1) Why would a top 8 OBP team not be good enough to win, especially with a dominant pitching staff? Why is the arbitrary Top 5 OBP team that you picked necessary?

 

2) Please explain how you calculate the average you list above.

 

3) I find your presentation method a bit dishonest. Yes, a .327 OBP would be 8th in MLB, however, you neglect to mention that a .330 OBP, just 3 tenths of a percentage point higher, would give the vaunted top 5 OBP offense which you seek. Which, again, leads me back to point 1.

 

1) I don't really know, I'm just trying to respond to others' arguments which seem to imply that at least a top 10 OBP is necessary. what tier of OBP do you think is necessary to have a better chance of getting it the playoffs? Don't some top tier OBP teams also have excellent pitching (I.E. Cubs)?

 

2) I added their hits, walks and HBP up and divided by at bats, walks, hbp and sf.

 

3) fine. What OBP would the team have to have to have significantly improved chance at the playoffs, and given the OBP of the five players listed, what 2B/OF/C/DH combo gets you the OBP you need to improve to that mark?

[GreenSox]

You make it sound so easy. Who is available in free agency that is a high power and high obp threat that the Sox can realistically sign? Before answering just remember that 6/$68 million is the biggest contraft they've given out.

 

No it's not easy, but you have to build a team. It takes some time. Hahn and Williams are either incapable or unwilling. Every year it's the same thing out of Rick Hahn....do a bunch of half measures, semi-plug some holes, but really fill nothing. Hahn will do the obvious, but nothing imaginative. The team looks pretty good on paper IF everything goes right. Then we get the Rolodex of Hahn's excuses.

 

How about making a trade...like the one that got Eaton here in the first place. Oh, that's right, Rick Hahn stopped making those trades, preferring the Melkys, Samardzijas and Fraziers.

But putting Eaton in CF when he transformed himself in RF is just inane.

 

The excuse is injuries, as if Putnam and Petricka and Jackson are difference-makers.

The injuries that really hurt the org. were Davidson and Tilson.

Edited September 24, 2016 by GreenSox

[southsider2k5]

No it's not easy, but you have to build a team. It takes some time. Hahn and Williams are either incapable or unwilling. Every year it's the same thing out of Rick Hahn....do a bunch of half measures, semi-plug some holes, but really fill nothing. Hahn will do the obvious, but nothing imaginative. The team looks pretty good on paper IF everything goes right. Then we get the Rolodex of Hahn's excuses.

 

How about making a trade...like the one that got Eaton here in the first place. Oh, that's right, Rick Hahn stopped making those trades, preferring the Melkys, Samardzijas and Fraziers.

But putting Eaton in CF when he transformed himself in RF is just inane.

 

The excuse is injuries, as if Putnam and Petricka and Jackson are difference-makers.

The injuries that really hurt the org. were Davidson and Tilson.

 

Davidson? Come on man.

[Two-Gun Pete]

Yeah, I'm disinclined to believe that a lack of HR is the reason why this team is garbage.

 

On the contrary, when your organizational philosophy is laser-focused on HR, you:

 

1. Sign useless, worthless pieces of crap named "Adam" in FA,

 

2. Stupidly draft low OBP losers like Keon Barnum [and others] high in the draft,

 

3. Stupidly trade for a strikeout machine like Matt Davidson who will never amount to anything in MLB,

 

4. Stupidly pursue strikeout losers like Micker Adolfo in international FA among the younger players signed. [Doesn't everybody just LOVE that "Raw Power"/200 strikeout a year potential?]

 

 

You know what "corpseball" is in actuality? It ain't a lack of HR. It's a lack of getting people on base. Remember, the "OBP" portion of "OPS" is the FAR more important part, and it isn't even close.

[caulfield12]

Uh-oh...

[Dam8610]

1) I don't really know, I'm just trying to respond to others' arguments which seem to imply that at least a top 10 OBP is necessary. what tier of OBP do you think is necessary to have a better chance of getting it the playoffs? Don't some top tier OBP teams also have excellent pitching (I.E. Cubs)?

 

2) I added their hits, walks and HBP up and divided by at bats, walks, hbp and sf.

 

3) fine. What OBP would the team have to have to have significantly improved chance at the playoffs, and given the OBP of the five players listed, what 2B/OF/C/DH combo gets you the OBP you need to improve to that mark?

 

I've been saying "buy Cespedes and Ramos or sell" since about June, so...something along those lines.

[Jerksticks]

Yeah, I'm disinclined to believe that a lack of HR is the reason why this team is garbage.

 

On the contrary, when your organizational philosophy is laser-focused on HR, you:

 

1. Sign useless, worthless pieces of crap named "Adam" in FA,

 

2. Stupidly draft low OBP losers like Keon Barnum [and others] high in the draft,

 

3. Stupidly trade for a strikeout machine like Matt Davidson who will never amount to anything in MLB,

 

4. Stupidly pursue strikeout losers like Micker Adolfo in international FA among the younger players signed. [Doesn't everybody just LOVE that "Raw Power"/200 strikeout a year potential?]

 

 

You know what "corpseball" is in actuality? It ain't a lack of HR. It's a lack of getting people on base. Remember, the "OBP" portion of "OPS" is the FAR more important part, and it isn't even close.

 

See I always looked at Corpseball as fat Jim Thome walking and it taking 3 hits to get his fat ass home. And everybody praised his OBP but it was actually almost useless. And then old JD would get on base and the same problem. And if Paulie singled...3 hits to get em in. That was corpseball to me- useless jim thome. Love the man, just not the player after '06.

[Two-Gun Pete]

See I always looked at Corpseball as fat Jim Thome walking and it taking 3 hits to get his fat ass home. And everybody praised his OBP but it was actually almost useless. And then old JD would get on base and the same problem. And if Paulie singled...3 hits to get em in. That was corpseball to me- useless jim thome. Love the man, just not the player after '06.

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you:

 

1. Hate OBP, and

2. Want a designated HITTER who has at least average footspeed.

 

Based on this, Avi Garcia is the ideal DH in your view, yes? After all, he sucks out loud at basic On Base skills, and is a blazing fast runner compared to say, Papi or Frank Thomas or fat Jim Thome.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Two-Gun Pete

[Greg Hibbard]

This discussion has led me to examine the numbers again and I must agree that OBP is probably a bigger issue.

 

I did not realize the decline this organization has had in terms of taking walks, in general.

[Black_Jack29]

And then the Sox would have a mediocre CF.

Yes Eaton doesn't have ideal RF power but it's his best position ( probably would be good in left too).

The gaping HR hole is the easiest to plug- DH. Get a real DH and OBP and defense from CF and the Sox are much better. No reason to downgrade the defense again.

 

While I would also not be super-happy about the defensive downgrade of moving Eaton back to CF, the Sox need another high-OBP player more than they need Eaton if RF. Finding a CF who can hit and get on base with a .330+ OBP AND be a defensive upgrade to Eaton is going to be difficult. Especially considering that the Sox are probably not going to give out a $120M+ contract and currently aren't a popular destination for free agents. Also consider that most free agents don't want to DH... unless they're old, slow, and injury-prone like Morneau. If Hahn were able to convince somebody like Cespedes or Reddick to sign with the Sox, I doubt there's any way that either would agree to DH.

 

A best-case scenario to address OF/DH for the Sox this offseason would probably be signing Reddick, moving Eaton back to CF, and convincing Morneau to sign a two-year deal to be our primary DH. I think that Reddick is pretty much a pipe dream, and my guess is that Morneau will end up paying for a team that's closer to winning a ring (e.g., Boston).

 

[Thad Bosley]

While I would also not be super-happy about the defensive downgrade of moving Eaton back to CF, the Sox need another high-OBP player more than they need Eaton if RF. Finding a CF who can hit and get on base with a .330+ OBP AND be a defensive upgrade to Eaton is going to be difficult. Especially considering that the Sox are probably not going to give out a $120M+ contract and currently aren't a popular destination for free agents. Also consider that most free agents don't want to DH... unless they're old, slow, and injury-prone like Morneau. If Hahn were able to convince somebody like Cespedes or Reddick to sign with the Sox, I doubt there's any way that either would agree to DH.

 

A best-case scenario to address OF/DH for the Sox this offseason would probably be signing Reddick, moving Eaton back to CF, and convincing Morneau to sign a two-year deal to be our primary DH. I think that Reddick is pretty much a pipe dream, and my guess is that Morneau will end up paying for a team that's closer to winning a ring (e.g., Boston).

Have things gotten that bad that acquiring Josh Reddick is considered a "pipe dream"?

[Black_Jack29]

Have things gotten that bad that acquiring Josh Reddick is considered a "pipe dream"?

 

No, the market is going to be tight enough this winter that he'll command a lot more money than he's worth. JR isn't going to give him the $80M+ that he's going to get on the FA market.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Black_Jack29

[Thad Bosley]

No, the market is going to be tight enough this winter that he'll command a lot more money than he's worth. JR isn't going to give him the $80M+ that he's going to get on the FA market.

We need to shoot higher than him. We've been adding Josh Reddick types for a few years now and well, you've seen how that's worked out for us.