steveno89 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 08:59 AM) There is nothing "depreciating" about Kahnle. Kahnle is a bad two months away from being back to worthless. If he's the next Andrew Miller we made a mistake, but now that we have no bullpen we should be on track for the #1 overall draft pick. Can't see this team winning many more games down the stretch given our rotation, bullpen and offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenericUserName Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 QUOTE (steveno89 @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 09:00 AM) Of course we always want more, but the Yankees absorbing Robertson's entire contract I'm sure played into the negotiations. I'm sure we offered to take on salary for a better prospect return, but the Yankees were probably not willing to give up more. Each side has to view the deal as fair to them, and we ended up getting a solid overall package. Sox fans should be thrilled. We did take on salary. Its name is Tyler Clippard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panerista Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 QUOTE (steveno89 @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 09:02 AM) Kahnle is a bad two months away from being back to worthless. If he's the next Andrew Miller we made a mistake, but now that we have no bullpen we should be on track for the #1 overall draft pick. Can't see this team winning many more games down the stretch given our rotation, bullpen and offense. I guess. I'm not sure what a team on pace to win like 60 games has to benefit from having the next Andrew Miller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 07:06 AM) But I agree with you and some others here - we likely overpaid to get "our guy," and I truly do think Kahnle has a chance to be a pretty dominant reliever for the Yankees as they make their run over the next several years. And the Sox record on "their guy" and "kenny williams loves him" is less than exemplary. This does look like one of those trades. Edited July 19, 2017 by GreenSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 08:52 AM) Yes, nothing amps me up like a 28 year old reliever prospect. What makes you think odds of Kahnle keeping it up is slim to none? The fact that he's upped his FB velocity to 98 MPH, his increased his swing strike % and is amongst league leaders, his extremely low FIP, xFIP, or his relatively high BABIP? Oh, and he's going to be cheap for the next 3 and a half years, while it may take the same time for Rutherford reach the big leagues, if he does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panerista Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 09:03 AM) And the Sox record on "their guy" and "kenny williams loves him" is less than exemplary. This does look like one of those trades; and I'm not convinced this FO is anywhere near 100% Hahn's show. Nothing about this says "Kenny Williams move". Come off it. The Kenny ship has sailed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwolf68 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) People down on this trade are looking at it in comparing to Q, Eaton and Sale. NO CHANCE to land anything comparable to elite starting pitchers. You move 2 costly players, one who who hits about .200. Yes, we did add in a player who may be figuring it out, but at 28 years old in middle relief, not sure how much real value he had. This was NOT a fleecing by the Sox, they landed none of the Yankees prized pieces, but Rutherford is still the type of player Hahn is going for....high upside!! The other two players in the deal look to either be headed for washout city OR maybe Hahn strikes on them. Clarkin has been marred by injuries, but has been pretty healthy this year and is having his strongest show to date. If he gets his injuries sorted out who knows. Polo is a "nothing" prospect who now finds himself in AA, hitting just under .300 with 25 steals with the ability to play all over the OF. No I don't think this was as a home run for Hahn, but he also wasn't trading elite cost controlled players like Q. Not earth-shattering move, but I think a solid one overall and fits the rebuild plan perfectly. Edited July 19, 2017 by kwolf68 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarComing25 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Hopefully we at least floated the idea and maybe the Yankees weren't willing, but I wish we had ate some money on Robertson's deal to get a better 4th piece than Polo. But oh well, hard to be that upset about getting a guy like Rutherford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCsoxfan Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Complete hard stop for those who thought we could get Robles for these 3. That is complete fantasy land. That isn't reality and you certainly can't use that to say we got a lesser prospect in Rutherford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 08:59 AM) There is nothing "depreciating" about Kahnle. So you are thinking his value increases as this season ends into next season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shipps Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Damn this has been entertaining. Whether you like the trade or not it was still a lot of fun last night. The back and forth about if it was a bad trade or not is all good stuff as far as I am concerned. This is why I follow my favorite teams and this is why I love soxtalk. Not everyone is going to agree and the conversations from that are really interesting to follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 QUOTE (steveno89 @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 09:02 AM) Kahnle is a bad two months away from being back to worthless. If he's the next Andrew Miller we made a mistake, but now that we have no bullpen we should be on track for the #1 overall draft pick. Can't see this team winning many more games down the stretch given our rotation, bullpen and offense. That is a basis-less prediction. That's like saying Aaron Judge has had a great first half, but is 2 months away from being an average big league outfielder again. Not comparing the two, but simply saying it's silly to discard the real improvements both players have made this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 07:06 AM) So you are thinking his value increases as this season ends into next season? Yes. I think at this time next season, Tommy Kahnle will likely be valued more than he is today. Had he stayed here, and gotten the opportunity to close, I definitely would have believed that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 QUOTE (Sox-35th @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 09:03 AM) I guess. I'm not sure what a team on pace to win like 60 games has to benefit from having the next Andrew Miller. The theory being, like many here who think a Kahnle implosion is inevitable, if you held him and he continued to perform, he would be like a cheaper Andrew Miller, and he would eventually net you a prospect even greater than Blake Rutherford. Why did the team need Q the first half of the season? The fact is, if you are going to trade them you want the best deal, and patience can work for you or against you. Maybe ultimately this was the best deal. But none of us know right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenericUserName Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 QUOTE (NCsoxfan @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 09:06 AM) Complete hard stop for those who thought we could get Robles for these 3. That is complete fantasy land. That isn't reality and you certainly can't use that to say we got a lesser prospect in Rutherford. If you read and comprehended my response you will understand that I was not using it to say we got a lesser prospect. I was using that example to say that trading 3 ML players for 1 minor leaguer is an overpay and that most people agreed upon this point. But then a few days later people were okay with a 3 for 1 plus a couple lotto tickets. And the 1 wasn't even as good of a 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 09:08 AM) Yes. I think at this time next season, Tommy Kahnle will likely be valued more than he is today. Had he stayed here, and gotten the opportunity to close, I definitely would have believed that. Thats fair enough. I think the volatility of relievers, especially ones that figure it out in their late 20's warrants flipping them when you can. He could become a dominant closer and make me eat those words. I just checked out his baseball reference page, his #1 comparison by age gave me the willies. f***ing Linebrink. Edited July 19, 2017 by RockRaines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 09:05 AM) Hopefully we at least floated the idea and maybe the Yankees weren't willing, but I wish we had ate some money on Robertson's deal to get a better 4th piece than Polo. But oh well, hard to be that upset about getting a guy like Rutherford. Yeah this is how I feel. Frazier I expected nothing. And quite honestly the robo/kahnle for Rutherford doesn't seem insane, it's just I worry about putting our hat on Rutherford as that guy. Had we been the ones responsible for getting them below luxury tax, I think we could have gotten a more interesting player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 There are some horrendous takes in here. I think the value proposition is simple. If you took out the relievers, you're looking at Frazier for Clarkin straight up. I would guess Yanks weren't eager to give up Clarkin for Frazier but might have been convinced if they were really high on getting Todd. Then it's Kahnle for Rutherford. But Kahnle for Rutherford is highway robbery for the Sox. Kahnle was worth something good, but Rutherford is a really good prospect. Would you trade Reynaldo Lopez for Kahnle? Giolito? Hansen? I know I wouldn't unless I was desperate for a reliever right away. So to sweeten the deal, we add Robertson. But we rightly said Robertson tipped the scales too far in the other direction, though the money piece lessens Robo's value even if it's not a bad deal. So we get them to throw in Tito Polo, who has a little upside and is almost certain to reach the majors and could be a nice roleplayer with upside as a starting CFer. I also have the sense that Yankees wouldn't have done any of these deals in isolation. The Frazier for Clarkin piece, in particular, I bet they only did because it allowed them to get Kahnle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 QUOTE (2005thxfrthmmrs @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 09:04 AM) What makes you think odds of Kahnle keeping it up is slim to none? The fact that he's upped his FB velocity to 98 MPH, his increased his swing strike % and is amongst league leaders, his extremely low FIP, xFIP, or his relatively high BABIP? Oh, and he's going to be cheap for the next 3 and a half years, while it may take the same time for Rutherford reach the big leagues, if he does. Did Kahnle increase his FB velocity? I thought he always threw hard, i thought it was just swarzak with the increased velocity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 09:14 AM) Did Kahnle increase his FB velocity? I thought he always threw hard, i thought it was just swarzak with the increased velocity. Kahnle's success is completely tied to his change up. Its devastating. He also started throwing strikes. Edited July 19, 2017 by RockRaines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxforlife05 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 08:36 AM) There is debate as to whether the guy is a top 50 guy, a top 80 guy....he didn't exactly light it up to start off the year. Seems you just don't like the deal. Might as well not even comment on it anymore. After what happened to Nate Jones I have no idea how you can be an advocate of waiting. That could end up being two pieces that should be traded we lost all value for. And after the A's deal all the Robles talk went out the window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 QUOTE (soxfan49 @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 07:50 PM) Honestly I'd take just Rutherford back for all 3 (Somewhat kidding) Ha, did soxfan ever follow up on this? I was at game and had a lot of fun, but missed out on this fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 07:14 AM) Did Kahnle increase his FB velocity? I thought he always threw hard, i thought it was just swarzak with the increased velocity. It's up this year, and he has learned to control it. Look at the fangraphs article from yesterday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenericUserName Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 09:13 AM) Yeah this is how I feel. Frazier I expected nothing. And quite honestly the robo/kahnle for Rutherford doesn't seem insane, it's just I worry about putting our hat on Rutherford as that guy. Had we been the ones responsible for getting them below luxury tax, I think we could have gotten a more interesting player. Not to mention they are also up against a 40 man roster crunch in the offseason so they need to unload some guys or risk losing them. Maybe Cashman can't manage to do that and we steal a guy. That might make me like this trade a little more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 09:14 AM) Did Kahnle increase his FB velocity? I thought he always threw hard, i thought it was just swarzak with the increased velocity. No, he's always flirted with 100. He started throwing strikes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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