Sox send Frazier/DRob/Kahnle to NY ~ Rutherford/Clarkin/Clippard/Polo

[oldsox]

I have a bunch of pals who are Red Sox fans. Yes, they are obnoxious, but they know their baseball, usually. Anyway, to a man, they think the Yanks really got the best of this trade. They all think DRob and Kahnle are really good and that Yanks no longer had high hopes for Rutherford.

I laughed.

We'll see.

Edited July 21, 2017 by oldsox

[Rowand44]

You can say what you want on the deal(and I've said my piece) but saying the Yanks no longer had high hopes for Rutherford after drafting him just last year is absurd.

[fathom]

You can say what you want on the deal(and I've said my piece) but saying the Yanks no longer had high hopes for Rutherford after drafting him just last year is absurd.

 

Yeah even I have slim hope for Collins

[iamshack]

You can say what you want on the deal(and I've said my piece) but saying the Yanks no longer had high hopes for Rutherford after drafting him just last year is absurd.

Cashman made it pretty clear that is not how he felt about Rutherford, although I concede it isn't customary for a FO to trash a prospect when they move him.

 

That said, the reaction I have heard among the industry "talent evaluators" has been that the Yankees got the best of us in this trade.

 

There has, however, been people that tend to gravitate more towards the value of prospects that think the White Sox were the clear winners.

 

Ultimately, it doesn't matter, and we'll find out what Kahnle becomes in NY and if Rutherford ever becomes anything in Chicago.

[iamshack]

This is an interesting take by Jeff Ellis on some of Blake Rutherford's struggles:http://www.scout.com/mlb/scouting/story/1792445-white-sox-yankees-trade

 

 

Blake Rutherford is the gem of this deal. I had him as the number one player in the 2016 draft, because I believed strongly in his hit tool. There has been talk about issues with his power production this year and how he has been merely average in low A. First off, Charleston is one of, if not the worst, places to hit home runs in the minors. Rutherford’s home runs might be down, but he has 20 doubles on the year, which shows he is still hitting the ball hard. It is a horrible place for hitters in general, so I have little concern about a kid in his second year in the minors being a league average batter in a park that suppresses everything.

Rutherford has mostly played center, but his future is in left field, where I think the bat will play. His approach is still strong, and I would expect to see his numbers trend upward now that he is out of Charleston.

This deal was mostly about Rutherford, but I still think he is one of the top 30 prospects in baseball. The White Sox turned a rental, a reclamation project, and an overpriced reliever into another high ceiling potential middle of the lineup type of bat; that is a win, for me.

It's nice to hear that stuff about the park factors. I did see his away splits were much better.

 

Is Kannapolis a hitting-friendly environment, a pitching-friendly environment, or fairly neutral?

[OmarComing25]

It's nice to hear that stuff about the park factors. I did see his away splits were much better.

 

Is Kannapolis a hitting-friendly environment, a pitching-friendly environment, or fairly neutral?

https://www.milb.com/milb/news/toolshed-sta...116/t-185364810

 

Last 3 years runs are 0.95, Homeruns are 0.76 and hits are 1.00 so it looks to be about neutral, though it also suppresses homeruns.

[iamshack]

https://www.milb.com/milb/news/toolshed-sta...116/t-185364810

 

Last 3 years runs are 0.95, Homeruns are 0.76 and hits are 1.00 so it looks to be about neutral, though it also suppresses homeruns.

Awesome, thanks!

 

So Charleston is a .493 for home runs...theoretically he should hit a few more bombs in Kannapolis than he would have in Charleston.

[witesoxfan]

Cashman made it pretty clear that is not how he felt about Rutherford, although I concede it isn't customary for a FO to trash a prospect when they move him.

 

That said, the reaction I have heard among the industry "talent evaluators" has been that the Yankees got the best of us in this trade.

 

There has, however, been people that tend to gravitate more towards the value of prospects that think the White Sox were the clear winners.

 

Ultimately, it doesn't matter, and we'll find out what Kahnle becomes in NY and if Rutherford ever becomes anything in Chicago.

 

See, I think you can make arguments for either side. The White Sox were looking at a guy in Frazier who was probably going to be worth a C- prospect, and Robertson maybe a C+/B- prospect if the Sox pick up half of his salary, and combining those two might get you both of the other prospects that you'd get. I don't think you're getting Rutherford for those two combined. Meanwhile, the Sox traded Tommy Kahnle who has literally been good for half a season. Given, he has been very, very good, like among the best relievers in the game, but it's half a season regardless, and they hardly gave up anything to get him, so if his inclusion gets you an A prospect plus a B- prospect and a C prospect, then I think it's worth it.

 

On the other hand, Robertson and Kahnle are both still very good relievers and Frazier was still putting up positive value despite barely cracking the Mendoza line. The Sox got a very talented prospect in Rutherford but he's still in low-A plus a couple of other flyer sort of prospects, so yeah, you can say the Yankees won that deal.

 

Frankly, the Sox got a guy they coveted so it's hard for me to say they lost that deal in the short-term, but I get how you can say they didn't win the deal or they perhaps didn't maximize value.

[fathom]

See, I think you can make arguments for either side. The White Sox were looking at a guy in Frazier who was probably going to be worth a C- prospect, and Robertson maybe a C+/B- prospect if the Sox pick up half of his salary, and combining those two might get you both of the other prospects that you'd get. I don't think you're getting Rutherford for those two combined. Meanwhile, the Sox traded Tommy Kahnle who has literally been good for half a season. Given, he has been very, very good, like among the best relievers in the game, but it's half a season regardless, and they hardly gave up anything to get him, so if his inclusion gets you an A prospect plus a B- prospect and a C prospect, then I think it's worth it.

 

On the other hand, Robertson and Kahnle are both still very good relievers and Frazier was still putting up positive value despite barely cracking the Mendoza line. The Sox got a very talented prospect in Rutherford but he's still in low-A plus a couple of other flyer sort of prospects, so yeah, you can say the Yankees won that deal.

 

Frankly, the Sox got a guy they coveted so it's hard for me to say they lost that deal in the short-term, but I get how you can say they didn't win the deal or they perhaps didn't maximize value.

 

Well said, this was clearly a guy they coveted

[steveno89]

See, I think you can make arguments for either side. The White Sox were looking at a guy in Frazier who was probably going to be worth a C- prospect, and Robertson maybe a C+/B- prospect if the Sox pick up half of his salary, and combining those two might get you both of the other prospects that you'd get. I don't think you're getting Rutherford for those two combined. Meanwhile, the Sox traded Tommy Kahnle who has literally been good for half a season. Given, he has been very, very good, like among the best relievers in the game, but it's half a season regardless, and they hardly gave up anything to get him, so if his inclusion gets you an A prospect plus a B- prospect and a C prospect, then I think it's worth it.

 

On the other hand, Robertson and Kahnle are both still very good relievers and Frazier was still putting up positive value despite barely cracking the Mendoza line. The Sox got a very talented prospect in Rutherford but he's still in low-A plus a couple of other flyer sort of prospects, so yeah, you can say the Yankees won that deal.

 

Frankly, the Sox got a guy they coveted so it's hard for me to say they lost that deal in the short-term, but I get how you can say they didn't win the deal or they perhaps didn't maximize value.

 

Jason Martinez of MLB trade rumors had this to say about the trade...

 

"Rutherford is a top 25-40 prospect in baseball. They got him for a reliever with a few very good months, a rental in Frazier and shed Robertson's entire salary. I love this deal for the Sox"

 

 

[fathom]

One other thing, WSox weren't only team that wanted Blake in a trade. Earlier in the week, one of the main reporters had a tweet that said teams were asking for him

[iamshack]

See, I think you can make arguments for either side. The White Sox were looking at a guy in Frazier who was probably going to be worth a C- prospect, and Robertson maybe a C+/B- prospect if the Sox pick up half of his salary, and combining those two might get you both of the other prospects that you'd get. I don't think you're getting Rutherford for those two combined. Meanwhile, the Sox traded Tommy Kahnle who has literally been good for half a season. Given, he has been very, very good, like among the best relievers in the game, but it's half a season regardless, and they hardly gave up anything to get him, so if his inclusion gets you an A prospect plus a B- prospect and a C prospect, then I think it's worth it.

 

On the other hand, Robertson and Kahnle are both still very good relievers and Frazier was still putting up positive value despite barely cracking the Mendoza line. The Sox got a very talented prospect in Rutherford but he's still in low-A plus a couple of other flyer sort of prospects, so yeah, you can say the Yankees won that deal.

 

Frankly, the Sox got a guy they coveted so it's hard for me to say they lost that deal in the short-term, but I get how you can say they didn't win the deal or they perhaps didn't maximize value.

Ultimately, that is what I conceded yesterday. If they really believe in him, fabulous. They obviously do this for a living, while I sit on the couch.

 

One minor gripe:

 

It is IRRELEVANT that the White Sox paid very little for Tommy Kahnle. That has absolutely nothing to do with his market value. The White Sox paid an immense price for Gordon Beckham, and yet his market value was very little (despite them getting a decent little prospect back for him from the Angels).

 

It works both ways.

[Rowand44]

Jason Martinez of MLB trade rumors had this to say about the trade...

 

"Rutherford is a top 25-40 prospect in baseball. They got him for a reliever with a few very good months, a rental in Frazier and shed Robertson's entire salary. I love this deal for the Sox"

Tommy Kahnle is a top 10 reliever in baseball this year, Robertson is a proven closer and Frazier hit 40 homeruns last year, they got all 3 of these guys because the Sox wanted a guy with a .733 ops in low A ball this year.

 

Oversimplifying stuff is fun(this isn't a shot at you steven, it's just an easy thing to do). Like wite said, this can go either way, just depends how you feel about it.

 

I said it earlier but it is funny to me that the guy the Sox coveted so much is one they've seemingly passed on twice in the last year. Not a shot at him at all, it's just crazy how things work out.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Rowand44

[Rowand44]

Ultimately, that is what I conceded yesterday. If they really believe in him, fabulous. They obviously do this for a living, while I sit on the couch.

 

One minor gripe:

 

It is IRRELEVANT that the White Sox paid very little for Tommy Kahnle. That has absolutely nothing to do with his market value. The White Sox paid an immense price for Gordon Beckham, and yet his market value was very little (despite them getting a decent little prospect back for him from the Angels).

 

It works both ways.

Completely agree here. It's a fun exercise to do stuff like that but it has absolutely nothing to do with the current deal.

[witesoxfan]

Jason Martinez of MLB trade rumors had this to say about the trade...

 

"Rutherford is a top 25-40 prospect in baseball. They got him for a reliever with a few very good months, a rental in Frazier and shed Robertson's entire salary. I love this deal for the Sox"

 

That's one of the two ways to look at it.

 

I'm perfectly happy with the deal and have no issues with it whatsoever. Frankly, the Sox are looking at 4 elite talents offensively now. It's a huge if, because prospects bust, but if those 4 guys do all pan out and hit their 90% projections, you are talking about an offense that's probably top 5 in the AL already. If a few of the other guys become OK regulars - guys on the team now, guys in the minors, guys they haven't acquired - you have a top 2 offense in the AL.

[iamshack]

Tommy Kahnle is a top 10 reliever in baseball this year, Robertson is a proven closer and Frazier hit 40 homeruns last year, they got all 3 of these guys because the Sox wanted a guy with a .733 ops in low A ball this year.

 

Oversimplifying stuff is fun(this isn't a shot at you steven, it's just an easy thing to do). Like wite said, this can go either way, just depends how you feel about it.

 

I said it earlier but it is funny to me that the guy the Sox coveted so much is one they've seemingly passed on twice in the last year. Not a shot at him at all, it's just crazy how things work out.

I've seen you mention the passing on him twice thing a few times now...I know we passed on him once in the draft, but what is the second time you are referring to?

[Rowand44]

I've seen you mention the passing on him twice thing a few times now...I know we passed on him once in the draft, but what is the second time you are referring to?

Sounds like he was the main piece that they were offering in a proposed Q deal as well but the Sox wanted the Eloy package instead. Obviously there's a ton more that goes into all that, just funny how things work out.

[steveno89]

That's one of the two ways to look at it.

 

I'm perfectly happy with the deal and have no issues with it whatsoever. Frankly, the Sox are looking at 4 elite talents offensively now. It's a huge if, because prospects bust, but if those 4 guys do all pan out and hit their 90% projections, you are talking about an offense that's probably top 5 in the AL already. If a few of the other guys become OK regulars - guys on the team now, guys in the minors, guys they haven't acquired - you have a top 2 offense in the AL.

 

My only concern is that Cashman is a smart GM, and really never trades the "wrong guy" so to speak. Not saying Rutherford won't pan out, but it does give me some pause.

[GreenSox]

My only concern is that Cashman is a smart GM, and really never trades the "wrong guy" so to speak. Not saying Rutherford won't pan out, but it does give me some pause.

Rizzo had that rep too.

I'm hoping this is a case of lot of OF depth + slow start. Clarkin is easy to see - Rule 5 (of course, that's why I think the Sox should have gotten more - he was zilch to the Yanks).

[iamshack]

Sounds like he was the main piece that they were offering in a proposed Q deal as well but the Sox wanted the Eloy package instead. Obviously there's a ton more that goes into all that, just funny how things work out.

Oh, gotcha.

[bmags]

My only concern is that Cashman is a smart GM, and really never trades the "wrong guy" so to speak. Not saying Rutherford won't pan out, but it does give me some pause.

 

He may not give up the wrong guy in trades, but he certainly has in rule 5. They've prioritized a lot worse players.

 

Here's to Tito Polo, then.

[Dick Allen]

Who knows with the prospects? The Sox traded what some thought were their besr 3 prospects, or at least 3 of their best for Frazier. Now Montas is getting lit up in Oakland, Trayce makes Frazier"s average seem league leading, and Micah is patrolling CF somewhere in the minors.

 

 

It seems the few times teams have been burned giving up their top prospects for rentals has ruined it for a lot of guys. Theo and DD are still 2 guys who aren't scared of being burned.

[KnightsOnMintSt]

I think that Rutherford is just so far away. and the Yankees think that they can win now, so they were willing to trade a good prospect since he is so far away still.

[witesoxfan]

My only concern is that Cashman is a smart GM, and really never trades the "wrong guy" so to speak. Not saying Rutherford won't pan out, but it does give me some pause.

 

Haven't gone back a long ways but they definitely missed on Solarte in the Headley trade.

[southsider2k5]

Who knows with the prospects? The Sox traded what some thought were their besr 3 prospects, or at least 3 of their best for Frazier. Now Montas is getting lit up in Oakland, Trayce makes Frazier"s average seem league leading, and Micah is patrolling CF somewhere in the minors.

 

 

It seems the few times teams have been burned giving up their top prospects for rentals has ruined it for a lot of guys. Theo and DD are still 2 guys who aren't scared of being burned.

 

None of those three guys equates anywhere near what Rutherford does. The term "prospect" should not imply that all prospects were created equal.