steveno89 Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 09:13 AM) Exactly what was/is around that Roosevelt location that would bring people in early and have them stay late? The Target? That is just another White Sox fan excuse. The ChiSox bar and grill has half priced apps after every game. After every game it is empty. Beyond the ChiSox bar there is really not much in the way of hotels, bars, restaurants, etc. around the stadium to attract fans. The stadium itself is not bad per se, but your only choices are really 1) Tailgating 2) ChiSox pub 3) Turtle's bar/cork and kerry South of the stadium is not doing it any favors either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewokpelts Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (steveno89 @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 09:21 AM) Beyond the ChiSox bar there is really not much in the way of hotels, bars, restaurants, etc. around the stadium to attract fans. The stadium itself is not bad per se, but your only choices are really 1) Tailgating 2) ChiSox pub 3) Turtle's bar/cork and kerry South of the stadium is not doing it any favors either. Kansas City plays in a parking lot. Look at thier numbers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Mite Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (ewokpelts @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 08:42 AM) Kansas City plays in a parking lot. Look at thier numbers So do the Dodgers, Angels, Brewers and Rangers. Not much around Citi Field either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (steveno89 @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 09:21 AM) Beyond the ChiSox bar there is really not much in the way of hotels, bars, restaurants, etc. around the stadium to attract fans. The stadium itself is not bad per se, but your only choices are really 1) Tailgating 2) ChiSox pub 3) Turtle's bar/cork and kerry South of the stadium is not doing it any favors either. Yet all the proposals aren't exactly bar dominated areas. White Sox fans have used it as an excuse. Cork and Kerry and Turtle's are too far. 2 blocks away, even though most of the bars at Wrigley are even farther. Then a bar is built right at the park, and they don't use it. Color me not surprised. If a park has to be surrounded by hundreds and hundreds of restaurants and bars, the White Sox really will just have to fold as there really is no place any state or city will build them a stadium in an area that meets that criteria. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (ewokpelts @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 09:10 AM) I repeat: the American league champions draw over 1000 per game more than the last place sox. And that is after play By MORE home dates. Sox are doing just fine. The South Side of Chicago: "Hey, at least it's not Cleveland!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iwritecode Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 09:21 AM) And outside of that 8 year stretch they are the historical absolute worst fan base of all of the old time franchises. Outside of that 8 year stretch, what have they really had to root for? A couple of Championships that happened long before most of their fans were born, and an appearance in the WS in the 50s followed by many, many years of nothing. One of the things that really made it jump was the new stadium in the 90's. It's scary how much they mirror the White Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (Iwritecode @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 10:44 AM) Outside of that 8 year stretch, what have they really had to root for? A couple of Championships that happened long before most of their fans were born, and an appearance in the WS in the 50s followed by many, many years of nothing. One of the things that really made it jump was the new stadium in the 90's. It's scary how much they mirror the White Sox. A measure of the quality of a fan base isn't that they pack them in when winning. It is if they show up when they aren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iwritecode Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 10:47 AM) A measure of the quality of a fan base isn't that they pack them in when winning. It is if they show up when they aren't. That's kinda how attendance works. When you go years and years without making the playoffs with no end in sight, fans tend to get frustrated and stop going. The teams with "good" fanbases tend to be the ones that are in the playoffs or at least in contention year after year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (Iwritecode @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 10:59 AM) That's kinda how attendance works. When you go years and years without making the playoffs with no end in sight, fans tend to get frustrated and stop going. The teams with "good" fanbases tend to be the ones that are in the playoffs or at least in contention year after year. The fanbases that show up even when things are bad versus the ones that completely dessert a franchise makes a huge difference in the resources a franchise has. It is the reason that places like Cleveland stay bad so much longer than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (Tony @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 11:00 AM) If we are simply talking "quality" of a fan base, I think that's a pretty awful measurement tool. Everyone loves (or loved) to make fun of Cubs fans for packing Wrigley every day when the team was terrible. Did they have the best fans in the world or did they enjoy Wrigley Field? As been proven many times before, the White Sox have been one of the worst franchises in sports the last 20 years, certainly the last 10. I have a hard time denigrating the Sox fan base because they aren't shelling out their money to support a franchise that has given them very little the last decade. You can look at it this way. If the Sox had a more loyal fan base, they probably attempt a real rebuild years ago instead of being afraid of another white flag style revolt. That is 100% the reason that JR wouldn't authorize this before now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofaRoache Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (Tony @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 11:00 AM) If we are simply talking "quality" of a fan base, I think that's a pretty awful measurement tool. Everyone loves (or loved) to make fun of Cubs fans for packing Wrigley every day when the team was terrible. Did they have the best fans in the world or did they enjoy Wrigley Field? As been proven many times before, the White Sox have been one of the worst franchises in sports the last 20 years, certainly the last 10. I have a hard time denigrating the Sox fan base because they aren't shelling out their money to support a franchise that has given them very little the last decade. True. Also I'll add that Cubs attendance started tanking and forced them to make the moves they did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofaRoache Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 11:03 AM) You can look at it this way. If the Sox had a more loyal fan base, they probably attempt a real rebuild years ago instead of being afraid of another white flag style revolt. That is 100% the reason that JR wouldn't authorize this before now. I can see this point. But in all honesty, why would a fan pay 200-400 bucks to take their family to a game if they team sucks? Players used to call out JR and the Sox for not being loyal and being cheap, so why would fans show some passionate loyalty? If the Sox want fans to show up, they need to give them a reason to be at the Park. If it's not the winning, then there better be activities to do outside the Park. Edited July 31, 2017 by SonofaRoache Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 31, 2017 Author Share Posted July 31, 2017 The Indians tore down two perfectly legitimate contending teams....2000-2002, that was more logical. The second one, around 20007/08, really killed that franchise, along with the strike as well. Owner more hated by many many multiples than JR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 11:01 AM) The fanbases that show up even when things are bad versus the ones that completely dessert a franchise makes a huge difference in the resources a franchise has. It is the reason that places like Cleveland stay bad so much longer than others. We all love to laugh at Cleveland, but I don't think they are the best example to use here. They supported their team better than anyone else with the league's longest sellout streak. Then management refused to shell out enough resources to keep the best players, and the product on the field diminished. The fanbase basically said, "f*** it, if you aren't gonna spend they money, then why should we?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofaRoache Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 09:13 AM) Exactly what was/is around that Roosevelt location that would bring people in early and have them stay late? The Target? That is just another White Sox fan excuse. The ChiSox bar and grill has half priced apps after every game. After every game it is empty. That area is coming along nicely and is on the up. It's also close by downtown, at the Chicago River, a short walk to Grant Park, hotels are nearby, lou malnatis, 4 cta trains will take you there, theaters close by, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloydBannister1983 Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 11:01 AM) The fanbases that show up even when things are bad versus the ones that completely dessert a franchise makes a huge difference in the resources a franchise has. It is the reason that places like Cleveland stay bad so much longer than others. Awaiting Lipman's reply that attendance doesn't matter ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (FloydBannister1983 @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 10:14 AM) Awaiting Lipman's reply that attendance doesn't matter ... It does matter. Just not to the extent that it used to say back in 1957 or 1965 or 1977 or 1984. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (SonofaRoache @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 11:13 AM) That area is coming along nicely and is on the up. It's also close by downtown, at the Chicago River, a short walk to Grant Park, hotels are nearby, lou malnatis, 4 cta trains will take you there, theaters close by, etc. The Roosevelt/Clark/River site has been sold and is going to be developed into offices and residences. The Sox aren't moving there. In retrospect, it would have been pretty nice, as other things would have been developed around there, but it had to be a football/baseball stadium. If it was built, the complaints would be even louder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenksycat Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (Tony @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 11:15 AM) Every team needs some kind of sustained winning to build on. The Indians were brought up earlier, in the 90's they had that crazy sell out streak. Now, after 15 years of suck (and other elements that have hurt that city) things are not in a good place. My point is you at least need to give a fan base that window of "good" before you judge them when the team is bad. The Sox don't have that. If they had a 3-4 year stretch of competitive, playoff baseball, then got bad...I think things would be a different. One playoff apperence in 10 years? Haven't had a playoff win since 2005? This franchise quite frankly deserves NOTHING from us. Hey cmon the Sox won a playoff game in 2008. You mean that 1 win didn't buy the franchise 10 years of support while they sucked? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarComing25 Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (Tony @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 11:15 AM) Every team needs some kind of sustained winning to build on. The Indians were brought up earlier, in the 90's they had that crazy sell out streak. Now, after 15 years of suck (and other elements that have hurt that city) things are not in a good place. My point is you at least need to give a fan base that window of "good" before you judge them when the team is bad. The Sox don't have that. If they had a 3-4 year stretch of competitive, playoff baseball, then got bad...I think things would be a different. One playoff apperence in 10 years? Haven't had a playoff win since 2005? This franchise quite frankly deserves NOTHING from us. Hey now, how could you forget that thrilling 5-3 victory in the 2008 ALDS to avoid the sweep? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (Tony @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 11:00 AM) If we are simply talking "quality" of a fan base, I think that's a pretty awful measurement tool. Everyone loves (or loved) to make fun of Cubs fans for packing Wrigley every day when the team was terrible. Did they have the best fans in the world or did they enjoy Wrigley Field? As been proven many times before, the White Sox have been one of the worst franchises in sports the last 20 years, certainly the last 10. I have a hard time denigrating the Sox fan base because they aren't shelling out their money to support a franchise that has given them very little the last decade. All of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (Tony @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 11:00 AM) If we are simply talking "quality" of a fan base, I think that's a pretty awful measurement tool. Everyone loves (or loved) to make fun of Cubs fans for packing Wrigley every day when the team was terrible. Did they have the best fans in the world or did they enjoy Wrigley Field? As been proven many times before, the White Sox have been one of the worst franchises in sports the last 20 years, certainly the last 10. I have a hard time denigrating the Sox fan base because they aren't shelling out their money to support a franchise that has given them very little the last decade. And I would argue that a good portion of that is because the ownership group has limited their options because of a fear of their own fan base. They literally had to wait years before the Cubs made rebuilding plausible with their fan base before they could do it. I mean basically we got the rebuild because of our little brother syndrome for the Cubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenksycat Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 11:45 AM) And I would argue that a good portion of that is because the ownership group has limited their options because of a fear of their own fan base. They literally had to wait years before the Cubs made rebuilding plausible with their fan base before they could do it. I mean basically we got the rebuild because of our little brother syndrome for the Cubs. Eh you sound like KW, that's an excuse. Even the s***ty small market teams print money so I don't buy the "poor owner" line. All these owners should be relatively smart businessmen, if you provide a s***ty product/service you can't expect it to also make money. Fix your product. And if you as a billionaire owner lose a couple million in the process then so be it. If that's going to cripple you, then you shouldn't own a professional sports team. It doesn't require 100 million to have a competent scouting/instructional staff so you can draft and develop your own players which is the only way to have a competitive team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Jul 31, 2017 -> 12:02 PM) Eh you sound like KW, that's an excuse. Even the s***ty small market teams print money so I don't buy the "poor owner" line. All these owners should be relatively smart businessmen, if you provide a s***ty product/service you can't expect it to also make money. Fix your product. And if you as a billionaire owner lose a couple million in the process then so be it. If that's going to cripple you, then you shouldn't own a professional sports team. It doesn't require 100 million to have a competent scouting/instructional staff so you can draft and develop your own players which is the only way to have a competitive team. lol, everyone has no problem spending someone else's money, but if they want to act like a business man, look out.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 31, 2017 Author Share Posted July 31, 2017 The attendance fear, at least this year, was severely overrated. The real key will be weathering the next two seasons...presumably with the Cubs in postseason play each of those years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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