Chicago White Sox Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 39 minutes ago, fathom said: No, but the inability of Cooper to get anything out of these guys is infuriating. That’s why he’s finally gone though. Just got to hope Katz can still save Cease. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: That’s why he’s finally gone though. Just got to hope Katz can still save Cease. If Cooper stayed there was no doubt in my mind that Cease would have been Lopez part deux. Now there's hope. Edited December 2, 2020 by Jack Parkman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 17 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said: You really assign that much value to a pitching coach? Rodon was constantly hurt. Fulmer was flaming out in the minors. Cease is still a kid and Lopez always had red flags and a live arm. Cooper's obviously a mixed bag, but I wouldn't look at any of those 4 pitchers and place the blame on a single person as their issues were all unique. Hell, Cooper spent so little time with Fulmer that he probably doesn't remember his name. You don't?? Pitching coach is more important than the manager IMO. You can't definitively conclude that a specifc player succeeded or failed due to the coach, but I think its pretty evident that pitchers generally require intensive coaching to reach their maximum level of performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxfest Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 Both needed launched Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 5 minutes ago, Vulture said: You don't?? Pitching coach is more important than the manager IMO. You can't definitively conclude that a specifc player succeeded or failed due to the coach, but I think its pretty evident that pitchers generally require intensive coaching to reach their maximum level of performance. Fulmer was due to shit luck more than anything else. Sometimes, a college or HS pitcher's stuff backs up significantly going from starting once a week to every 5 days. Nobody knows who those guys are, and unfortunately for the Sox, Fulmer was one of those guys. It happens in every draft, to a few teams, even in the 1st round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 13 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: That’s why he’s finally gone though. Just got to hope Katz can still save Cease. 11 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: If Cooper stayed there was no doubt in my mind that Cease would have been Lopez part deux. I still think Lopez's problems might be solved primarily by simply giving him his curveball back. I hope we find out. Still haven't heard a reasonable explanation for taking it away, and I suspect it may have been a contributing factor in Cooper's firing. Cooper decided to get experimental and failed, but was too stubborn to adjust. Makes no sense when Lopez had a hammer of a curveball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Vulture said: I still think Lopez's problems might be solved primarily by simply giving him his curveball back. I hope we find out. Still haven't heard a reasonable explanation for taking it away, and I suspect it may have been a contributing factor in Cooper's firing. Cooper decided to get experimental and failed, but was too stubborn to adjust. Makes no sense when Lopez had a hammer of a curveball Remember, Giolito had a 70 grade curve when he came up in 2017 and then in 2018 that disappeared along with Cooper teaching him a slider. It worked for him, but a curveball, if he could tunnel it with his high heater, would work even better as a breaking pitch. If Katz could get Giolito back to the curve he had in HS, then Gio could take the step forward from strong #2 to bonafide ace. I know exactly why Giolito's curve gets rocked right now and it's because it comes from a different release point than the other 3 pitches. It's fairly obvious when he throws it. Edited December 2, 2020 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold's Leg Lift Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, Vulture said: I still think Lopez's problems might be solved primarily by simply giving him his curveball back. I hope we find out. Still haven't heard a reasonable explanation for taking it away, and I suspect it may have been a contributing factor in Cooper's firing. Cooper decided to get experimental and failed, but was too stubborn to adjust. Makes no sense when Lopez had a hammer of a curveball Lopez needs a lot more than just a curveball. His fastball is flat and he can't command it. Can't pitch in the big leagues if you don't command the fastball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said: Lopez needs a lot more than just a curveball. His fastball is flat and he can't command it. Can't pitch in the big leagues if you don't command the fastball. He can’t throw a fastball without it tailing a foot away from the target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smellysox Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 1 hour ago, fathom said: Rodon, Fulmer, Cease and Lopez should pose with Cooper in a pic like the 2005 guys did. Lol. I would add Covey and Samardzija instead of Cease and ReLo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 (edited) His fastball would probably be more effective if he had a better pitch to set it up. I don't see how it follows that a guy's best pitch is eliminated due to trouble locating a fastball. Was throwing an inferior slider instead supposed to be the fix? Edited December 2, 2020 by Vulture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold's Leg Lift Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, fathom said: He can’t throw a fastball without it tailing a foot away from the target. That's an issue. He lacks concentration. He has short stints where he gets locked in but loses it quickly and gets knocked around. I get they tendered him today because he's cheap but I'm hoping they use him in a trade as a throw. I'm tired of his act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 4 minutes ago, smellysox said: Lol. I would add Covey and Samardzija instead of Cease and ReLo. What about Hector Noesi? Coop had big plans for him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold's Leg Lift Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 5 minutes ago, Vulture said: His fastball would probably be more effective if he had a better pitch to set it up If he needs a pitch to set up a 95+ fastball that should tell you all you need to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 Just now, Harold's Leg Lift said: If he needs a pitch to set up a 95+ fastball that should tell you all you need to know. Problem was is it even a 95+ fastball anymore? It’s so depressing watching his big game for the Nats or even the first inning ever for the Sox. You would never know it’s the same guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said: If he needs a pitch to set up a 95+ fastball that should tell you all you need to know. Pretty sure any starting pitcher would get killed if they threw nothing but fastballs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold's Leg Lift Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, fathom said: Problem was is it even a 95+ fastball anymore? It’s so depressing watching his big game for the Nats or even the first inning ever for the Sox. You would never know it’s the same guy. Avg was 94.2 so yeah it's down 1.3 from 2019. No bueno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, fathom said: Problem was is it even a 95+ fastball anymore? It’s so depressing watching his big game for the Nats or even the first inning ever for the Sox. You would never know it’s the same guy. Nope, he's sitting around 94 now and topping at 96 which is very different from topping at 99 and sitting around 96-97 which is what he was when he came up. Lopez is nowhere close to the same guy that was a top 40 prospect. It's crazy how Giolito and Lopez went in complete opposite directions in every way after 2018. Edited December 2, 2020 by Jack Parkman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold's Leg Lift Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, Vulture said: Pretty sure any starting pitcher would get killed if they threw nothing but fastballs Fastballs are supposed to set up the secondaries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said: Fastballs are supposed to set up the secondaries. In 2018 Lopez was experimenting with both an 87-89 mph cutter that didn't break as much and an 82-85 mph slider with bigger break. He had much more success and fooled more batters with the cutter than the slider. For some reason, in 2019 they scrapped the cutter. Edited December 2, 2020 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 Just now, Jack Parkman said: In 2018 Lopez was experimenting with both an 87-89 mph cutter that didn't break as much and an 82-85 mph slider with bigger break. He had much more success and fooled more batters with the cutter than the slider. For some reason, in 2019 they scrapped the cutter. I don’t think he was healthy all year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, fathom said: I don’t think he was healthy all year Given how much his stuff has tailed off, I don't think he's been healthy since 2018. The loss of command and diminishing stuff scream shoulder issues, which finally popped up this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 1 hour ago, fathom said: Rodon will go to the Astros and only throw fastballs and sliders while improving his spin rate by 20% I would worry about this but Sox did let him throw a ton of sliders and it didn’t matter (even though it was still effective!). He just has awful command and feel. “Bulldog” pitchers seems like a euphemism now for a guy that will be too stubborn to change when it ain’t working. Pass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 Just now, bmags said: I would worry about this but Sox did let him throw a ton of sliders and it didn’t matter (even though it was still effective!). He just has awful command and feel. “Bulldog” pitchers seems like a euphemism now for a guy that will be too stubborn to change when it ain’t working. Pass He never met a fastball high and away to righties that he didn’t love to throw 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 15 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said: Fastballs are supposed to set up the secondaries. Not sure that's true. Fastball is by far the most common pitch on a strikeout which suggests secondary pitches set up the fast ball more often than not. Of course it varies from pitcher to pitcher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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