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soxfan49

2021 NHL Thread

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Shitty stuff all around.  I think what some people need to also think about is, sadly, this type of shit and other shenanigans have most likely happened in almost every single locker room to varying degrees over the years.  Doesn't matter the sport, the city, or the team, the locker room.  I would be willing to bet there are numerous things that have occurred that were covered up, or not reported because of fear of getting cut, fired, released, traded, etc.  Would not surprise me one bit if reports start coming out about other incidents happening in other organizations now that this has been made public and the victim coming forward. 

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Q is out in Florida. 

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42 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

Preach. Well said.

I’m being selfish right now but I’m so pissed at how the Hawks decided to handle this. It’s hard to fathom how they continue to get this wrong step after step after step. It makes it incredibly difficult to even try and be a fan. 

I’ve been on the fence for a few days now, but they are making it incredibly hard to root for any part of the organization. 

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13 minutes ago, Tony said:

I’m being selfish right now but I’m so pissed at how the Hawks decided to handle this. It’s hard to fathom how they continue to get this wrong step after step after step. It makes it incredibly difficult to even try and be a fan. 

I’ve been on the fence for a few days now, but they are making it incredibly hard to root for any part of the organization. 

Toews and Kane deserve to get lambasted for making excuses for their buddies Stan and Al, but in the end this was above their level. 

What are they supposed to do, go to the same people that have already decided to cover up date rape? 

99% of the blame goes to Hawks Sr. management. Direct your vitriol there. 

John McDonough

Stan Bowman

Joel Quenneville 

James Gary

Al MacIsaac

Kevin Cheveldayoff

Direct your ire toward those people. They are the people who had the power to act, and did nothing. The players could have only reasonably gone to them, and they had already decided to squash the whole story. Even if the players would have acted, it would have accomplished nothing. 

Edited by Jack Parkman
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Disagree. Franchise players hold an outsized amount of influence. If Toews took the claims seriously, you had better believe more action would have been taken.

Look, blame him or don't, but the illusion that Toews is a "good leader" is dead. His Captaincy is forever tainted.

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18 minutes ago, Tony said:

I’m being selfish right now but I’m so pissed at how the Hawks decided to handle this. It’s hard to fathom how they continue to get this wrong step after step after step. It makes it incredibly difficult to even try and be a fan. 

I’ve been on the fence for a few days now, but they are making it incredibly hard to root for any part of the organization. 

I get what you mean, but we're all in agreement what happened to Beach was horrible and looms over all of this but the only thing you and I can do is put our fandom (and money) elsewhere. Don't feel guilty discussing your fandom.

Meanwhile, I'm surveying the league on ESPN Plus. I'll be honest, I'm tempted to hop on the Kraken bandwagon since they're a new team and everything.

Edited by Vacheron

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18 minutes ago, Vacheron said:

Disagree. Franchise players hold an outsized amount of influence. If Toews took the claims seriously, you had better believe more action would have been taken.

Look, blame him or don't, but the illusion that Toews is a "good leader" is dead. His Captaincy is forever tainted.

Don't disagree, but I believe him that he only heard rumors. 

I think the failure to act by the players was because they had thought it had already been addressed when Aldrich was gone. Brent Sopel alluded to as much. 

My belief is that the 6 assholes who covered it up were the only ones that knew the entire story and the severity. None of the players knew that the Hawks senior management were monsters. 

I mean, Toews and Kane were still in disbelief last night.  They cannot believe that their buddies Stan and Al are such monsters, it's the only rational thing that explains what they said. 

Bowman looks especially slimy, after making excuses even after the reports 

Edited by Jack Parkman

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11 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Don't disagree, but I believe him that he only heard rumors. 

I think the failure to act by the players was because they had thought it had already been addressed when Aldrich was gone. Brent Sopel alluded to as much. 

My belief is that the 6 assholes who covered it up were the only ones that knew the entire story and the severity. None of the players knew that the Hawks senior management were monsters. 

I mean, Toews and Kane were still in disbelief last night. 

You’re very naive Jack.

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6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

You’re very naive Jack.

Not as naive as anyone who believes Rocky Wirtz first learned about the rapist in his organization when his franchise was sued.

Edited by South Side Hit Men

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1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

You’re very naive Jack.

I have read the report and have been following the reporting on the subject. 

This is what the evidence points to. 

Shawn Lalonde was Beach's roomate in 2010 and he said he didn't even know that anything had happened until the next training camp. 

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4 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Not as naive as anyone who believes Rocky Wirtz first learned about the rapist in his organization until his franchise was sued.

McCub seems like the kind of old school guy that would go down with the ship and protect his boss. 

I'm on the fence here. There is definitely plausible deniability, but also deserved skepticism. 

Edited by Jack Parkman

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27 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Toews and Kane deserve to get lambasted for making excuses for their buddies Stan and Al, but in the end this was above their level. 

What are they supposed to do, go to the same people that have already decided to cover up date rape? 

99% of the blame goes to Hawks Sr. management. Direct your vitriol there. 

John McDonough

Stan Bowman

Joel Quenneville 

James Gary

Al MacIsaac

Kevin Cheveldayoff

Direct your ire toward those people. They are the people who had the power to act, and did nothing. The players could have only reasonably gone to them, and they had already decided to squash the whole story. Even if the players would have acted, it would have accomplished nothing. 

I'm stealing this from Reddit:

Quote

 

Boynton named names via interview months ago.

They asked me who knew and I gave them names, basically everybody on the team,” Boynton told TSN in an interview on Wednesday. “I said everybody f---ing knew about it. I said you can talk to the coaches. …I said talk to Torch [former assistant coach John Torchetti]. I called out Brian Campbell, and said talk to Patrick Sharp and talk to Kaner [Patrick Kane]. …The training staff knew. I’m sick of this wall of silence.”

https://www.tsn.ca/boynton-investigators-probing-alleged-abuse-of-former-blackhawks-players-ask-who-knew-1.1674971

Sopel said everyone knew as early as the WCF in 2010.

In an interview with TSN on Tuesday, Sopel, who played 22 games for the Blackhawks during the 2010 playoffs run, said that the Blackhawks locker room was abuzz for days with discussion about Aldrich during the 2010 Western Conference finals, after then-skills coach Paul Vincent asked Blackhawks management during a meeting in San Jose to report Aldrich’s alleged sexual assault of two players that season to police.

“…I’d say pretty much every player said, ‘Holy s--t’ and was shocked by it,” Sopel said. “We were all in the same dressing room. It was something that was discussed for at least two or three days. [Then head coach Joel] Quenneville was in the same office as [Aldrich]. We heard about it.”

https://www.tsn.ca/sopel-former-blackhawks-teammates-should-be-telling-the-truth-publicly-about-assault-allegations-1.1667495

A marketing official was quoted that this assault was an open secret in the organization

“Brad would routinely befriend young interns and invite them to his apartment in Chicago to watch March Madness basketball and other sports,” a Hawks marketing official, who requested anonymity, told TSN. “I was told to steer clear of him because he had tried something at his apartment on a few players. This was not something that only a few people knew about. The entire training staff, a lot of people knew. ... This was an open secret.”

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/blackhawks/ct-chicago-blackhawks-sexual-assault-lawsuits-20210627-polnbrjlbnhxra7ecellmhnvim-story.html

An anonymous player (not Sopel or Boynton as they haven't been anonymous at all) quoted in the Athletic that the entire team knew.

The Athletic quoted an anonymous player from the 2010 team as saying: “Every guy on the team knew about it. Every single guy on the team knew.”

Dan Carcillo said he knew about it.

“I was on the @NHLFlyers playing the @NHLBlackhawks in the @StanleyCup finals in 2010,” Carcillo wrote. “We heard the whispers of what Aldrich did. Hard to believe that most ppl working in the organization didn’t know.”

Then there's confirmation from a Rockford coach in 2011 they had information about Aldrich's incident on page 38 of the released report

In 2010, rumors of an incident between Black Ace 1 and Aldrich started and followed Black Ace 1 for years. Black Ace 1 recalled being asked by a couple of players about whether Aldrich gave Black Ace 1 a “blow job.” Black Ace 1 recalled laughing off the question and saying “no.” A former coach for the Rockford IceHogs wrote in a 2011 evaluation of Black Ace 1, “I think what happened last spring with Brad Aldrich weighed on [Black Ace 1] this year big time.” When interviewed, the former coach stated that he never spoke to Black Ace 1 about Aldrich and based the note in the evaluation on rumors he heard at the time. Black Ace 1 also recalled an incident in approximately 2014 when he was chased around the ice by a former Blackhawks player who called Black Ace 1 a “f****t” and asked if Black Ace 1 “liked that blow job or what?"

https://jenner.com/Chicago_Blackhawks_Investigation_Report

There is simply no plausible deniability for anyone on the 2010 team.

If you're going to argue that the report confirms everyone didn't know, sorry but you're wrong. All the report confirms if that they couldn't get enough evidence to prove legally "everyone knew". That's a big big difference from confirming everyone didn't know.

Kyle Beach himself comes out and says he believes everyone knew about it, that's at least 4 players (Beach, Boynton, Sopel, Anonymous player) from the 2010 team that says everyone knew, an opposing team player said he and others knew AND a team marketing official that says it was an open secret yet people still want to give players like Keith, Kane and Toews plausible deniability?

How many more people need to step forward?

 

So stop it, Jack. Don't tell me who I should and shouldn't be mad at. 

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23 minutes ago, Vacheron said:

I get what you mean, but we're all in agreement what happened to Beach was horrible and looms over all of this but the only thing you and I can do is put our fandom (and money) elsewhere. Don't feel guilty discussing your fandom.

Meanwhile, I'm surveying the league on ESPN Plus. I'll be honest, I'm tempted to hop on the Kraken bandwagon since they're a new team and everything.

My dad had season tickets for 23 years, gave them up when I was born. 

I've probably been to 200 Hawks games in my life. I was at the WCF in Anaheim for the Shaw header goal and the longest playoff game in franchise history. I've got pictures of me wearing Hawks gear when I was 3 years old. I used to sit in class and come up with line combos (that included the likes of Igor Korolev, Pavel Vorobiev, Travis Moen and others). I have other connections to the franchise as well that I won't share here. 

It's really hard to "quit cold turkey" on a franchise that has been a big part of my life....but as I look at the franchise as it currently stands, there is nothing for me to root for. Fuck the players, fuck the coaching staff, fuck the ownership. It's rotten to the core. 

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13 minutes ago, Tony said:

I'm stealing this from Reddit:

So stop it, Jack. Don't tell me who I should and shouldn't be mad at. 

What can they realistically do? Go to the same people that decided to cover up rape? 
Are you suggesting they attempt to force a sexual assault victim to go to the police before he was ready?

We're all disappointed in TKK last night, but there is no moral equivalence between the players and upper management. 

It's fine to be disappointed in them, but I think putting the players in the same moral bag as upper management is overly harsh and unjustifiable. 

They're no angels, but they're not villains either. 

Edited by Jack Parkman

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4 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

What can they realistically do? Go to the same people that decided to cover up rape? 
Are you suggesting they attempt to force a sexual assault victim to go to the police before he was ready?

We're all disappointed in TKK last night, but there is no moral equivalence between the players and upper management.  

1. Not lie to the media and fans by saying they had no idea when numerous reports contradict that

2. Not make quotes like this and defend the upper management you want me to go after (which I’m not taking any blame off of management by the way):

“To me, Stan and Al, make any argument you want, they’re not directly complicit in the activities that happened,” Toews said. “Regardless of mistakes that may have been made, for someone like Stan, who has done so much for the Blackhawks — and Al, as well — to lose everything they care about and their livelihoods as well ... I don’t understand how that makes it go away, to just delete them from existence and [say], ‘That’s it, we’ll never hear from them again.’”

This is one of the many reasons I kept you on ignore for so long. I’m sorry, but you simply can’t grasp nuance and understand even remotely complex arguments. 

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7 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

What can they realistically do? Go to the same people that decided to cover up rape? 
Are you suggesting they attempt to force a sexual assault victim to go to the police before he was ready?

We're all disappointed in TKK last night, but there is no moral equivalence between the players and upper management.  

Maybe not let one of their teammates call Beach a slur and mock his sexual assault?  This happened on the ice and I find it hard to believe your beloved Captain wasn’t present.

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11 minutes ago, Tony said:

1. Not lie to the media and fans by saying they had no idea when numerous reports contradict that

2. Not make quotes like this and defend the upper management you want me to go after (which I’m not taking any blame off of management by the way):

“To me, Stan and Al, make any argument you want, they’re not directly complicit in the activities that happened,” Toews said. “Regardless of mistakes that may have been made, for someone like Stan, who has done so much for the Blackhawks — and Al, as well — to lose everything they care about and their livelihoods as well ... I don’t understand how that makes it go away, to just delete them from existence and [say], ‘That’s it, we’ll never hear from them again.’”

This is one of the many reasons I kept you on ignore for so long. I’m sorry, but you simply can’t grasp nuance and understand even remotely complex arguments. 

Yes, I can grasp nuance and understand complex arguments. 

They deserve all of the flak they get for defending Bowman. In the best light, it's tone deaf and insensitive. 

There's no excuse for saying that, but he's in denial. He cannot believe how much of a monster his buddy Stan is. (this is nuance and a complex argument btw)

At the end of the day, if the Hawks Sr. Management did the right thing, nobody is talking about this today. 

Edited by Jack Parkman

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4 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Maybe not let one of their teammates call Beach a slur and mock his sexual assault?  This happened on the ice and I find it hard to believe your beloved Captain wasn’t present.

Beach never made the NHL and there are four practice groups in training camp. It is quite plausible he wasn't on the ice for said slur. 

We don't know. 

Edited by Jack Parkman

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2 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Beach never made the NHL and there are four practice groups in training camp. It is quite plausible he wasn't on the ice for said slur. 

You’re right, I’m sure Toews is just hearing about it now for the first time.  Not like these guys talk to one another in camp and clearly mocking someone by saying “did you enjoy that blowiob” in front of a bunch of people wouldn’t get around.

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3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

You’re right, I’m sure Toews is just hearing about it now for the first time.  Not like these guys talk to one another in camp and clearly mocking someone by saying “did you enjoy that blowiob” in front of a bunch of people wouldn’t get around.

Not to mention that Brent Sopel posted on twitter last night that they took it to Sr. Managment and they told him it would be taken care of. 

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11 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Yes, I can grasp nuance and understand complex arguments. 

They deserve all of the flak they get for defending Bowman. In the best light, it's tone deaf and insensitive. 

There's no excuse for saying that, but he's in denial. He cannot believe how much of a monster his buddy Stan is. (this is nuance and a complex argument btw)

At the end of the day, if the Hawks Sr. Management did the right thing, nobody is talking about this today. 

In the same paragraph you say “there is no excuse” and in the next sentence you’re literally making an excuse for Toews.

Think about the road you’re going down. 

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1 hour ago, Tony said:

In the same sentence you say “there is no excuse” and in the next sentence you’re literally making an excuse for Toews.

Think about the road you’re going down. 

It doesn't excuse him saying that. It's still abhorrent. 

There's no logical reason for him to defend the scumbag Bowman if he isn't in denial. It's still slimy and insensitive. 

I understand why he did it. It doesn't make it correct or acceptable.

Toews is no angel, but he's not a villain either.  

To say he has done himself no favors is an understatement. 

I'm not willing to throw the players under the bus quite yet. We shall see how this plays out. 

When Boynton and Sopel, and Beach say the players knew, what did they know? Rumors and hearsay or that a sexual assault took place? 

I still haven't found the answer to that question 

 

The players should not have to answer for the crimes of upper management. If upper management did not abdicate their moral responsibility, this is a non-issue. 

It is very clear to me where the overwhelming majority of the blame lies. 

Anyone has the right to be angry with the players for making excuses for their buddies. 

I'm not telling people not to be angry with the players for making shitty comments

I was as appalled as anyone and was screaming at the TV when they said it. 

At the end of the day, it was their buddies that put them in that position. Maybe they should reflect on that a little. 

 

 

Edited by Jack Parkman

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