White Sox Futility Under Williams/Hahn/Ventura

[Panerista]

Turned on B&B today, and while they can be jerks, Matt Abbatacola's numbers on air today were staggering and disappointing.

 

 

Under Williams/Hahn/Ventura (3+ seasons)

• White Sox 281-331 (50 games under)^
• Twins 267-346 (79 games under)*
• Astros (120 below .500)*
• Cubs (66 under)*
• Padres (31 games under)^
• Mets (17 games under)*

*Team getting notably better, have announced they will be bad, and do a complete rebuild. All showing significant signs of improvement.

^Teams that reload every season ("Reload" every year)

 

AL Central

• Tigers (49 Games over .500)
• Royals (37 Games over 500)
• Indians (2 games under .500)

 

White Sox Record

• Total: 43 games Under in Division
• 30-39 against the Indians
• 27-41 against the Tigers
• 24-45 against the Royals
• 35-34 against the Twins

 

I continually call for a rebuild on this board because it is critical we get one. We require a change in philosophy, new staff, move players like Jose Abreu for pieces/picks, and we need to draft better.

 

If that's not bad enough, here is our position drafted players since 2001 by WAR

 

Edited August 28, 2015 by AustinIllini

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Yuck

[Panerista]

Yuck

We should send a draft pick to the Mariners with Kenny Williams. He's the worst.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

We should send a draft pick to the Mariners with Kenny Williams. He's the worst.

 

I'm ready for a cleanse that this organization desperately needs.

[Quin]

k

[kitekrazy]

I continually call for a rebuild on this board because it is critical we get one. We require a change in philosophy, new staff, move players like Jose Abreu for pieces/picks, and we need to draft better.

 

It's the philosophy that needs to be changed. That won't happen. A rebuild wont work.

 

[Soxfest]

Still have people that defend KW no matter what! He can't evaluate talent with any longterm success.

[Flash Tizzle]

It's the philosophy that needs to be changed. That won't happen. A rebuild wont work.

Why wouldn't it work? Have we tried it?

 

This is exactly the type of mentality that places us in our current position. We recognize that our "rebuild on the fly" philosophy doesn't work, but know it won't be changed so we just sit here and shrug our shoulders. "It won't work Hahn, so lets continue looking for our next NL FA bust to maybe finish in 4th place next season."

 

Meanwhile another five years pass and a team such as Minnesota implode, allows themselves to completely rebuild, and are in a much better position moving forward.

 

I'd take a complete demolition of this team now and accept five years of futility. Atleast we'd know if this current group is capable of a rebuild. Hell, even if there's no guarantee for a sucsessfull rebuild like Houston, Minnesota, or the Cubs, I'd atleast appreciate the effort. We would have something to compare to, unlike now.

 

And about the inevitable issue of attendance......who cares? We're near the bottom now, move four slots down and bump out Tampa Bay for all I care. I'd atleast appreciate the courage of our team to do what's necessary and recognize that what has been tried since 2008 ISN'T WORKING.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Flash Tizzle

[Flash Tizzle]

Still have people that defend KW no matter what! He can't evaluate talent with any longterm success.

Just put it in this prospective -- remove yourself from being a White Sox fan. Look at the teams from 2009 through today, and decide how you would guage the results?

 

I'd say most, if not all, would conclude that management did a horrendous job. They were unable to sustain success.....or failure. So what was left was a perpetual cycle of mediocrity.

[Whitewashed in '05]

The problem with doing a complete rebuild even if those three are fire are the replacements that Reinsdorf will hire. You think he'll bring in a completely new staff with no ties to the organization who have had success? No, he'll just promote people who have never been GMs or VPs and groom them on the job like the coaching staff. It's going to take a complete overhaul of the organizations philosophies to revamp it. Not new faces with the same philosophy that they learned from Kenny. Hell, he'd probably just promote Buddy Bell.

[LittleHurt05]

Is there a story behind Hawk's broken bat - Matt Abbatacola?

[chitownsportsfan]

Just put it in this prospective -- remove yourself from being a White Sox fan. Look at the teams from 2009 through today, and decide how you would guage the results?

 

I'd say most, if not all, would conclude that management did a horrendous job. They were unable to sustain success.....or failure. So what was left was a perpetual cycle of mediocrity.

 

 

They haven't been mediocre in awhile. They've been bad. Most stretches of bad this long get a GM fired. Or, you know, at least a manager.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

They haven't been mediocre in awhile. They've been bad. Most stretches of bad this long get a GM fired. Or, you know, at least a manager.

 

Yup. Teams are canning GMs. Detroit and Mariners for example.

[Panerista]

It's the philosophy that needs to be changed. That won't happen. A rebuild wont work.

This is thought process is completely and entirely wrong and part of the problem. Doing what we are doing now won't work.

Edited August 29, 2015 by AustinIllini

[Jose Abreu]

k

Post of the year.

 

I think the most surprising thing about this thread is that Ryan Sweeney has a 6.5 career WAR.

[Panerista]

Post of the year.

 

I think the most surprising thing about this thread is that Ryan Sweeney has a 6.5 career WAR.

What's really surprising is that people stand up for this pile of lard.

[Chicago White Sox]

I have no idea why you'd do a rebuild when you have a potentially elite rotation locked up cheaply for the next four years. It honestly makes no sense to me.

 

I do find it humerous that many on here cite the Cubs' rebuild as proof that it's the correct strategy. However, people fail to acknowledge that only two of their important major league players are a direct result of sucking for multiple years (Bryant & Schwarber). Rizzo was stolen in a prospect for prospect trade. Russell was given up in one of the most mind-boggling trades in recent memory (for a guy the Cubs wanted to sign to a long-term extension). Soler was an amateur international free agent signing. Arrieta was the result of an incredible trade deadline deal. Lester & Hammel were free agent signings. Hell, Fowler, Coghlin, & Montero, three of their top 5 position players based on fWAR, were savvy pickups.

 

Point I'm trying to make is the lengthy rebuild route isn't the primary reason for their success. Shrewd trades and signings have provided them much more value this season. Given the talent we already have in place, there is absolutely no reason to blow things up and start from scratch. More often than not, rebuilding doesn't work out.

[Panerista]

I have no idea why you'd do a rebuild when you have a potentially elite rotation locked up cheaply for the next four years. It honestly makes no sense to me.

 

I do find it humerous that many on here cite the Cubs' rebuild as proof that it's the correct strategy. However, people fail to acknowledge that only two of their important major league players are a direct result of sucking for multiple years (Bryant & Schwarber). Rizzo was stolen in a prospect for prospect trade. Russell was given up in one of the most mind-boggling trades in recent memory (for a guy the Cubs wanted to sign to a long-term extension). Soler was an amateur international free agent signing. Arrieta was the result of an incredible trade deadline deal. Lester & Hammel were free agent signings. Hell, Fowler, Coghlin, & Montero, three of their top 5 position players based on fWAR, were savvy pickups.

 

Point I'm trying to make is the lengthy rebuild route isn't the primary reason for their success. Shrewd trades and signings have provided them much more value this season. Given the talent we already have in place, there is absolutely no reason to blow things up and start from scratch. More often than not, rebuilding doesn't work out.

We've sucked for a number of years. Where are our Bryant and Schwarber?

 

I'll wait.

 

Also, what examples do you have of the bold? The teams that are doing full organizational rebuilds are in significantly better shape than the White Sox or the Padres.

 

Welcome to the new MLB.

Edited August 29, 2015 by AustinIllini

[Jose Abreu]

We've sucked for a number of years. Where are our Bryant and Schwarber?

They're named Chris Sale, Carlos Rodon, and Carson Fulmer. I would say Quintana, but he was a FA.

[Jose Abreu]

I have no idea why you'd do a rebuild when you have a potentially elite rotation locked up cheaply for the next four years. It honestly makes no sense to me.

 

I do find it humerous that many on here cite the Cubs' rebuild as proof that it's the correct strategy. However, people fail to acknowledge that only two of their important major league players are a direct result of sucking for multiple years (Bryant & Schwarber). Rizzo was stolen in a prospect for prospect trade. Russell was given up in one of the most mind-boggling trades in recent memory (for a guy the Cubs wanted to sign to a long-term extension). Soler was an amateur international free agent signing. Arrieta was the result of an incredible trade deadline deal. Lester & Hammel were free agent signings. Hell, Fowler, Coghlin, & Montero, three of their top 5 position players based on fWAR, were savvy pickups.

 

Point I'm trying to make is the lengthy rebuild route isn't the primary reason for their success. Shrewd trades and signings have provided them much more value this season. Given the talent we already have in place, there is absolutely no reason to blow things up and start from scratch. More often than not, rebuilding doesn't work out.

Good post. With a better FO, this team could be so much better. We have the pieces. We just need those savvy signings you mentioned.

[Panerista]

Good post. With a better FO, this team could be so much better. We have the pieces. We just need those savvy signings you mentioned.

Where?

 

So many holes. We're baseball swiss cheese.

[Panerista]

They're named Chris Sale, Carlos Rodon, and Carson Fulmer. I would say Quintana, but he was a FA.

When do they bat? Or field? Kris Bryant is a higher WAR than the active guys you mentioned, including Q, combined.

 

Drafted starters aren't pieces. Go look over those drafted position players again.

Edited August 29, 2015 by AustinIllini

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Where?

 

So many holes. We're baseball swiss cheese.

I get it. But we do have a core of players. Sale, Rodon, Q, Abreu. Decent pen with a closer who can get it done.

 

We have some prospects down in the minors also. Fact is, some of these position players need to pan out. If Avi was advertised we'd have protection for Abreu. This team has holes. So dd a lot of teams.

[Panerista]

I get it. But we do have a core of players. Sale, Rodon, Q, Abreu. Decent pen with a closer who can get it done.

 

We have some prospects down in the minors also. Fact is, some of these position players need to pan out. If Avi was advertised we'd have protection for Abreu. This team has holes. So dd a lot of teams.

I understand what you mean.

 

And I don't mean to antagonize you. I like the guys here, but I just am so frustrated with the direction we have gone. And when you take a step back, it just looks so much worse. They go for it every year and are still consistently bad.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

I understand what you mean.

 

And I don't mean to antagonize you. I like the guys here, but I just am so frustrated with the direction we have gone. And when you take a step back, it just looks so much worse. They go for it every year and are still consistently bad.

Oh I'm as frustrated. I'm f***ing sick of s***ty to mediocre teams. This is bulls***. I'm ready to clean house in the front office.