Chisoxfn

QUOTE(tempe85 @ May 23, 2005 -> 10:45 PM) Wow I actually read this was the first time all year the Sox were shut out.... that's impressive (for both the Sox and Santana). My Angels have been shut out.... let's see.... hmm... frig I lost count at 20. LOL Haha, heck, its only the 2nd time all year that the Sox haven't had the lead at one point in the game. But ya Angels offense has been atrocious. I shuddered when they signed Cabrerra and Finley instead of opting for Beltran. I just didn't think it made sense. They gave both of them too much money and if your gonna divy up that type of money I'd rather of had Beltran and Eckstein (who I wasn't the ultimate fan of, but he's gonna cost half the price per season without giving up a long term deal and put up better offensive numbers while playing good d, albeit not great d). I don't know how many games you get to tempe, but the other thing I notice about the Angels...they have the slowest working pitching staff in the bigs (no doubt about it). I'm always at the games wondering who I got to bribe to get some guys that flat throw strikes (I'm so excited I can see Buehrle pitch, he's as good as it gets to watch, imo...well him and Mulder). Angels are going to make it but the team isn't as good as last years. They have better pitching simply because Colon is pitching like the Colon of old, but Washburn and Lackey aren't near as good as they are pitching (I can't stand Washburn, he's a 1 pitch pitcher) while Lackey hasn't been anything since that playoff run (he usually has one hot streak a season). Byrd is solid and Escobar has dynomite stuff (and only Clemens gets worse run support, lol).

This is a battle of the fastest pitcher in the majors against what I would deem the slowest pitcher in the majors (Contreras is right there with Colon though). If its any consolation one of my friends thats going to tomorrows game has a hex on Colon. He's seen him pitch 9 times and he's pitched awfully in every game but one. Whenever he goes to the Angles games, they lose...so I told him he was definately going when the Sox were in town

QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ May 23, 2005 -> 10:41 PM) You say that like it's a bad thing.... That's actually an improvement. Lol, I was about to say that. He hit something like .190 in April Cheat I think a whole lot of us are going to be really happy in a week when Gload and Thomas are back...it means no Walker and no Timo. And if its somehow Willie that gets demoted, I may just cry

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ May 23, 2005 -> 10:36 PM) Yup and those 0-2, 1-2 counts are coming from us letting a first pitch fastball right over go by for strike 1. Now forgive me, I didn't see the 1st 4 innings so I don't know what Santana was throwing than but from the time I turned the game on Santana was also throwing 1st pitch changeups for strikes and when he was throwing that fastball he wasn't throwing it down the tube. He was painting the corner on the 1st pitch fastball and when a guy locates his fastball, its not a pitch you want to swing at (especially on the 1st pitch, imo). Now I'm with cheat and tempe in terms of advance scouting. Since everyone seems to say he was pitching all day on the outside portion, which means you gotta start noticing that and adjusting to it. If this is what he does down in the minors as well as in the majors you should at least have that idea. The Sox definately didn't have that idea. Thats not to take anything away from Santana though, its not easy pinpointing your stuff like he was tonight and he was throwing his fastball, change, and sliders for strikes.

QUOTE(1919 @ May 23, 2005 -> 10:09 PM) Hey Tannerfan, Give Vizcaino a break. How about sending Crede to parts unknown? Did he deserve the error tonight or what? Welcome Aboard

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ May 23, 2005 -> 09:17 PM) Its amazing how observant fans can identify things like this but certain hitting coaches, who have the luxury of film and scouting reports, and a good many of the players cannot. Easier said than done. I pitched for a reason when I played. It was because I coudln't hit worth a lick. I understood what you should do with different pitches and could recognize them, but for the life of me I coudln't do anything aside from pull the ball (its why I was such an awful hitter). Hitting a baseball is the hardest thing of any sport, imo. You have to adjust between a 94 MPH fastball or an 80 MPH offspeed pitch (changeup) plus a curve or slider. Good luck. Walker has preached and does preach going opposite way. Now Crede and a few others may not be great hitters, but that isn't because Crede isn't doing the work (its because his swing just isn't a fit for the majors, imo) nor is it because Walker is telling him to pull the ball (no hitting coach would preach that).

QUOTE(tempe85 @ May 23, 2005 -> 09:18 PM) I am an Angels fan but don't worry I don't plan to cause a rukus Anyways I think it was just a combination of him being really good and that no one knows anything about him in the majors (no scouting reports) which allowed him to have a really good game. Hey no worries from me. My dad and I have season tickets to the Angels (they are my 2nd favorite team...next to my beloved Sox). Plus its always good hearing good insite from fans of other teams. Tomorrow I got a feeling the Sox will put up a bit of a fight but the Angels don't give up. They are a lot like the Twins in the sense that they do all the little things to help them win. For example they came up with clutch hits whenever they were needed and it was the difference. I guess this was Santana's last start as I know Hudler/Pyschioc mentioned that Escobar was going to come off the DL. On an Angel related sidenote, can you even stand listening to Hudler? A few years back when Hudler was recovering from his aneurism (I think thats what he had) Mark Langston was in the booth and man was that just a total joy to listen to as opposed to Hud.

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ May 23, 2005 -> 10:06 PM) As opposed to how many breaking pitches away that guys like Crede waved at and missed? Watching the highlights (if you can call them that ) again on MLBTV I counted 7 strikeouts on off speed stuff between 80-85. 6 of those Ks were junk low and away. Thats what happens when a guy is locating and your always finding yourself down in the count 1-2, 0-2. Your in a defensive mode and the breaking pitch looks like it may be close and bam you swing and it ends up being outside.

Hey Tempe...welcome aboard I'm guessing your an Angel fan? Just going off the tempe (considering thats where the Angels play there spring ball). Anyway your right and I know a lot of people just looked at his ERA and thought chump. Santana isn't just the best minor league pitchers in the Angels system but he's one of the best in the bigs. I still think he's up a little early but he's in the same class as the Sox Brandon McCarthy in the sense that he has the ability to come up and make an immediate impact.

QUOTE(DonkeyKongerko @ May 23, 2005 -> 09:07 PM) I swear some of you guys must cream yourselves every time we get a hit to the opposite field. That and the genius scouting report on Santana of him being a "crappy pitcher" has me believing you guys were just waiting for a chance like this to spew all this built up hatred for pull hitters. From TV, I couldn't tell how "hittable" Santana's fastball was but maybe you can tell me since you seem to have faced him before. I won't argue that some of these guys' approaches suck (see Crede, Uribe) but jeez. Yeah I guess corpseball is back because we finally got shutout by a pitcher with wicked stuff on the West Coast. Well personally I creamed myself when Konerko jammed himself to go opposite field. When Konerko is doing that you know he's very close to breaking out. I absolutely love it when a guy is going opposite field because when he's doing that he's going to start getting pitched inside and get pitches to drive. That being said it wouldn't of mattered today. Santana's fastball had juice on it and wasn't straight. Plus when your hitting your spots its gonna be tough regardless of what kind of stuff you have. Nothing the Sox could of done with this one, except have JG throw a shutout too However, I do think its quite obvious (even for me and I love Crede) to notice that Crede flat out won't cut it in the majors. He may turn into a .240 hitter with 20 HR's but thats about as good as it will get unless he makes some drastic changes to his swing. Slow, slow, slow. And than there is Everett who has looked terrible this entire month. I don't have the splits, but all I have is what I've watched and I've seen him chase way too many pitches down and out of the zone because he's guessing fastball on everything cause its the only way he can actually catch up to the fastball. Now I think Everetts a good guy, in fact I think he's hillarious, but right now he looks totally lost and its going to be nice to have Frank back (and I dont' even like this Frank Thomas...I liked the Frank of old that would hit for AVG). This one is a slow plodding DH. Luckily he has an amazing eye and some power but those just aren't the type of players I personally like (what else can I say, lol).

QUOTE(Jabroni @ May 23, 2005 -> 09:05 PM) Cuz Everett was a hot mofo early in the season and Iguchi was getting on base twice a game. Now he looks horrible at the plate. Timo can go swim with the sharks. He is awful. Timo at 1 million and Ben Davis at 1 mill makes me want to flat out puke. The Sox aren't going to be able to get anything for the two of them. I guess they give the club some depth but for pete sakes Spidale could come up and be as productive as Timo for 1/3 of the price.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ May 23, 2005 -> 09:01 PM) If they approached this like they approach tough pitchers and tried to make contact and not over complicate things by trying to hit long shots. If on 3-1 Everett wasnt trying to park one, instead of making contact and moving the runner over. I give the angels pitcher credit. He hit his spots on the outside corner. We will see a steady diet of this until our hitters learn that there is other parts of the park besides left and right field bleachers. Everett is lousy and has been for 90% of this season. The past month I could count on one hand the type of quality ab's he's had, one of which actually came late in todays game when he worked a full count and fouled off a good number of pitches. It was what I'd deem a productive out. Of course to me he's lost some mustard on his swing and can't catch the fastball like he once could. Everett, Crede, Timo...3 guys who in my mind shouldn't be starting. Now Everett is better than some options, but no one is going to tell me that Brian Anderson isn't capable of hitting .245 with a little power. The only thing he doesn't have is the experience and veteran know how of a guy like Carl at this point. Plus Anderson is one hell of a defender. Luckily he's tearing the cover off the ball in AAA and could be a definate option later in the year (if he 's not dealt for a 3rd baseman). All that being said, this team can win with those holes, and if Frank comes back into close to decent form it will be one more step forward.

QUOTE(Jabroni @ May 23, 2005 -> 08:57 PM) Even better news is we won't have to see Everett playing everyday once Frank is back. How Everett has as many RBI's as he does I'll never know. Its not like Konerko who has actually hit the ball hard. Everett has looked awful in pretty much every at bat I've seen him in the past month and somehow has gotten a few clutch hits. Oh and Timo...good riddance, that turd should be gone once Gload/Thomas are back. With those two back and Everett into a PH/Role playing spot than the Sox will have a drastically better lineup with Crede the lone hole (and I call him a hole...have you seen the HOLE in his swing). I should add, this isn't something I'm saying because the club loss. This is just something I've seen for too long and its to the point where its no longer a slump, but more a trend.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ May 23, 2005 -> 08:56 PM) Methinks you over estimate this guy. Prior challenged us over the middle of the plate. If he read the scouting report and just painted the outside corner he might of had a no hitter against us. Our guys are pull baseball only hitters. Throw it over the center or middle of the plate and they will mash it out for a long home run. You paint the outside corner and they cannot adjust at all and attempt to pull the outside corner. Joe Credes approach tonight was embarrassing. Stepping in the bucket, head up trying to pull the outside pitch. I watched the game, the fastballs were pretty straight. They had some velocity on them. Everett on 3-1 not catching up to a fastball down the middle of the plate twice and then grounding out after he pulls the slow slider was silly also. Our hitters have to do a better job of adjusting. There is a particular way that most pitchers will attack the sox. Now the top shelf pitchers like Colon, Pior, Zambrano, Johan will pitch in. The rest especially the plus six era guys just hit the outside corner. Last year we watched as crap pitcher after crap pitcher would look like Cy Young because all they did was spot the fastball on the outside corner. How many times did our offense get 4 hit, 3 hit 2 hit by some plus six era guy. This game is about adjustments, after seeing a patter. Like first pitch fastball on the outside corner, take the bat off your shoulders and take a chance. His stuff was dynomite and he was painting the black. Now I won't disagree with you on Crede, I've officially given up on him as of tonight. The other issue was Everett (or should I say lame ass) and Timo were in the lineup. The two of them are worthless. Everett has been looking awful at the plate for some time and I'm sick of it. Rowand should officially be the new 3 hole hitter and Everett should be done once Frank is back (minus the ocassional ab's). Dye is back in gear and there is no reason for Everett to ever play more than one straight game in the field (unless he can get into a groove). If the Sox need an everyday outfielder they should look to AAA in Anderson. However, while I am pencilling out those three schlubs on this team It still makes no difference, they ran into a guy that flat out dominated...case closed.

QUOTE(Sox Hustler @ May 23, 2005 -> 08:54 PM) The thing I don't understand is that half this f***in team is new and still the same old problems. Matchup against a rookie = shutout, west coast trips = f***ed. This is different. Rookie or not the guy pitched amazing. You couldn't throw the ball much better than he did today and hell the SOx lost. They didn't stand a chance in this one (it could of been closer) but they weren't going to get a run off Santana today.

Santana pitched brilliantly. Jon had some tough luck and the game could of been closer, but there wasn't much the Sox could do against Santana. Santana has flat out nasty stuff and was throwing strikes all day long. Nothing you can do but tip your cap and move on. Its quite obvious this was by far the best pitching performance the Sox have faced all season and there is no harm in losing this way (Santana was dynomite). Hell I didn't see hardly any, if any opportunities where the Sox missed a cookie. On one random sidenote, I am no longer a supporter of Joe Crede. It has nothing to do with dropping that ball today (he's a good defensive player) but I'm sick and tired of his long ass swing. Problem is as of now the Sox have no other options, but you can bet your ass Crede is going to be dealt at the deadline and that the Sox will have a new 3rd baseman (which will definately help out this offense). I supported Crede for years, but today that support ends. He hasn't adjusted s*** to his swing and its long and ugly and good lord does he have slow hands.

QUOTE(JimH @ May 23, 2005 -> 05:47 PM) No team will want to pick up the rest of the $6M salary so it may take a while before he lands somewhere. All he has to do is clear waivers. Than the Reds owe him the 6 million and if he signs with another team the Reds owe him the 6 mill - the league minimum. All the Sox would have to pay him is league minimum once he clears waivers (and he will).

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ May 23, 2005 -> 08:30 PM) Because they understood that he throws very straight fastballs on the outside corner. Our guys are falling over trying to pull the ball. Just watch the game...he didn't throw anything straight tonight. Not one pitch of his wasn't moving (mainly with sinking action) and he was painting the black. Santana pitched like he was capable and there is no harm in this loss. Its a tough loss for JG but Santana flat out earned it and pitched what I'll call the best pitching performance the Sox have faced all season (he was 10 times more nasty than Prior and Prior was nasty on Sunday).

The Sox have won just 13 games since 1995 in Anaheim. Remember I told you guys, this place has to be as bad as Oakland if not worse. They are now 25 games under .500 against the Angels in Anaheim since 1995. Thats downright pathetic. Now you see why I shudder at the thought of these next 3 games. I'll be freaking exstatic if the Sox can just split this series. And there really was no harm in this loss. Garland pitched good (had some tough luck hits) and well Santana was downright filthy. He was throwing strikes and like I said in the game log has tremendous stuff. He isn't one of the best pitching prospects in all of baseball for nothing.

QUOTE(beck72 @ May 23, 2005 -> 05:04 PM) You're thinking Cliff Pennington, the SS from texas A+ M. He's a switch hitter as well; high OBP, more walks than K's Thats it. I'm awful with names so I typically remember the state they are in and try to come up with some whacko ass idea of the name in my head, LOL.

No idea on his timetable, but he's supposed to play at one point or another this year. I'll try and ask once finals are over to see when he's supposed to be back. Worse case I'll ask Wilder in the interview

Ya Levine was acting as if the Cubs were on the brink of making a pretty good size trade. There is a post over in ATH in regards to the Cubs move. Interesting on the Ozzie front. The way I see it there was no reason to do it this soon, but I don't have a problem with it I guess. Ozzie has done a good job this year. I 've questioned some of his decisions but he keeps the team lose and you can't argue with the record.

QUOTE(Jabroni @ May 23, 2005 -> 02:42 PM) Maybe this is why they cut Edinger... http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sp...ack=1&cset=true Ya, but Edinger hit all of them on Sunday before he was cut. I think it had more to do with the Bears being respectful of Edingers wishes. HE felt he was the odd man out and wanted an opportunity to catch on with another team as a starter (and he will). That may not of been the case had the Bears waited and waited.

QUOTE(FlaSoxxJim @ May 23, 2005 -> 03:10 PM) Join us! You don't understand the POWER of the DORK SIDE! Is that you Jim?

QUOTE(elrockinMT @ May 23, 2005 -> 02:46 PM) It is an intriguing thought for sure. I am just afaid we would have another Koch on our hands is all. He was still young too, but just didn't have it anymore. Only one difference in my mind. The Sox were paying Koch a whole lot of money and would be paying Graves league minimum. If they can't fix it, he's gone. Its not like Viz is doing all that much better and Graves has a better track record than him. Plus a decrease in velocity hurts a power pitcher a lot more than a finesse pitcher.