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I know his versatility is a good thing but I'd like to see him stick to 3rd base. I think that should improve his fielding back to where it used to be. At least I hope so. Big difference between playing 3rd and 2nd.

QUOTE (SoCalSox @ Dec 10, 2015 -> 05:33 PM) That's an extremely unfair comparison for Thompson. He had 122 at bats, had a slash line of .295/.366/.533/.896 w/ 5 HRs and great defense. Let's give him a real chance & see what he has. I agree. Give him a legit shot to be the opening day CF'er . He looked like a major leaguer when he batted , not necessarily because of the success, but because he looked very comfortable in the box and seemed to have a good eye. Jose Iglesias of the Tigers had pretty "meh" minor league stats and he's hit pretty well in the majors.

If you use salary and age to decide who you'd rather have it's the Sox by a landslide if you consider talent is equal.

Very happy no Trayce , Engel or Trey or pitcher of significance was involved. Hahn must have said cut us some slack , last year we gave you 3 guys who played in the bigs for you.

Seems as if most of us either under valued our prospects or over valued Lawrie regarding who would be traded to get him. Whatever the case I really like how it worked out.

My guess is Daniel Webb and Adam Engel.

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 04:39 AM) Indians and Tigers are rumored to have interest in Lawrie as well. Trading Lawrie is looking more like a classic Billy move where the A's get more than expected. I'm starting to wonder about this... Eh, we knew other teams would be interested in him since the 3B market sucks . Doesn't make a big difference who else wants him . How bad is Lonnie Chisenhall at 3rd base ? He must be pretty bad since he plays a lot of RF . I've always liked his bat . Indians need OF's so maybe Chisenhall becomes available but his glove may not be suitable.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 05:36 AM) I have been one of the biggest detractors to giving up draft picks of any kind. I feel like if they were going to do this they should have just traded Shark. I am draft fan and some of it is me selfishly wanting to be entertained on draft night. If the White Sox gave up a pick in the 20's for Ian Desmond or Daniel Murphy I'd be furious. I don't think anyone should be upset for doing it for Upton though. Upton was a 3.6 WAR player last year playing in the Cavernous PetCo Park. He would immediately upgrade the White Sox biggest area of need (RF) with a 28 power bat. If they are willing to spend, he's probably the guy. The benefits to having the draft pick are more related to flexibility in my opinion than the actual player taken. The player taken with the 25th pick in the draft will probably never be as good as Upton. It's not that simple though. If the Sox have 3 picks on the first night of June's draft, I'll be happy about it. If Justin Upton is the White Sox starting RF on Opening Day though, I'd be happy about that too. I've sort of been waiting for something like what you said about wanting to be entertained on draft night. I've always thought some of us on here love draft choices but once those picks go through the system they get picked apart and ultimately are deemed worthless in trades. I know it seems strange to love the draft picks but hate our prospects but that's how it seems to be set up. I know the years it takes to go through the system determine how good of a prospect the draft pick turns out to be but it really seems like we value other teams prospects more than our own . I know the Sox have trouble developing position players so that's the most likely culprit but it just seems so odd wanting the picks when odds are those picks don't turn into useful players ,not only for the Sox ,but for other organizations as well.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 10:25 PM) I posted proof on Twitter (@chisoxraBBit) that shows I said it before Nightengale. Nightengale is very connected with the Sox FO and specifically Kenny Williams so they utilize him in ways unknown to me. This obviously doesn't mean it's going to happen but the Sox are entertaining a few QO-attached FAs and all I know is Upton is the guy they deem best fit. Yea I went back in both threads (this one and the Lawrie one to try and connect the dots. When I couldn't do that I looked up your twitter and you said it first. I'm just saying you are setting yourself up for all the Soxtalkers to PM you constantly regarding inside info. But none of my business if you can handle it or just refer everyone to your Twitter.

QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 09:59 PM) That his info came from Nightengale. To be honest I wasn't sure of the exact timeline on who said what first. I said what I said just so everyone doesn't inundate Rabbit with PM's like Rock Raines used to get. But hey if Rabbit said it first and he gets hit with a bunch of PM's don't blame me .

QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 09:53 PM) That is false. What is false ?

QUOTE (BigHurt3515 @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 08:17 PM) Is RaBBit (poster on here) now a reliable rumor source? Come on Brian, spill the beans! Yes ! Everyone PM him . Nightengale said it on MLB Tonight . That's where the info came from.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 06:21 PM) The 2012, 2013, and 2014 IL pitchers of the year are not in the major leagues. Yes ,I know ,I looked it up ahead of time. So are you making a point or just giving me facts ? Take a stand buddy. I value your opinion . What's your outlook on his worth in a trade. Will he be a successful ML starting pitcher ?

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 06:22 PM) When it comes to the Sox, he's basically always right. Sox are signing Justin Upton, guys. I'll believe it when I see it. In fact I'd be shocked if it happened.

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 06:06 PM) Based on what Cooper said, I don't think Micah Johnson will be with the organization in a week or two What did he say ?

QUOTE (LDF @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 01:03 PM) i too agree .... ej failed and then succeeded in the minors again, he was a late call up, but does that really count??? new season, hopefully a well rested arm, and a great mind set will go a long way for him. but i would say this, his value in any trade is nothing, unless as a throw in. The International League pitcher of the year has no value ? Only as a throw in ? Surely you jest. Is this a case of you under valuing him because he plays for the Sox and not the Red Sox, Cubs or Dodgers ? With the price of pitching sky high and teams still reluctant to trade high profile minor league talent I don't understand the value you have assigned to him. As of this moment he likely has more value than Spencer Adams and probably equal to Montas. Are they just throw ins also ?

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 08:01 AM) What would you call EJ? He's already failed once in the majors as well. Not saying I'd make the trade, but I could see the logic. He's been called up 3 times at the end of 2013,14, and 15 . 2 times I would call it a success one time a failure. Why would you focus on the failure since after that failure he corrected what was wrong and once again appears to be a pitcher who could be a fixture in the rotation for a while. He's also our only righty in the rotation at the moment. Number 4 starters on today's market are worth a lot. I"ll go out on a limb and say he puts up similar numbers as Jordan Zimmerman this year.

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 05:39 PM) Well put. Hindsight is always 20/20. I was one of those fans that wasn't sure the Sox should extend the QO but that was based on Samardzija's ERA being above 5 and pitching like s*** at the time. Thankfully I was wrong in my thinking. I'm almost always right so that's why I say revisit the threads. . I remember Rock Raines thought the Sox had a good chance to extend him and everyone jumped on board that idea since Rock used to have a contact that has since dried up. I don't think I ever thought he'd get extended. I mean ,seriously, common sense says when you got a shot for a mega contract odds are you go for it. Even his suck ass season didn't prevent him getting a pretty lucrative deal.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 02:31 PM) Remember when posters on this site didn't want to give him a QO? Talk about dumb ideas. Remember when posters on this site were sure the Sox would be able to extend his contract and he wouldn't go to free agency ? Just for s***s and giggles we need to revisit those threads just to humble some of us.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Dec 4, 2015 -> 05:34 AM) 1 - trade Micah Johnson instead. 2- awful; 3- very solid 4- ugh Wait ! Weren't you against trading Micah for Brett Lawrie in the Lawrie thread when I posted it ?

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Dec 4, 2015 -> 01:52 PM) Long time Sox 3B target for many Soxtalkers. His prospect star has faded, but is still only 24. Played mainly LF last year, so must not be much of a 3B. Wouldn't be surprised to see the Sox take a gamble. I really need to make a folder for all my posts. Don't think I ever wanted him but I'll just say I don't know for sure. Might have called him one of those over rated Red Sox prospects since every east coast writer espouses them ad infinitum.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Dec 4, 2015 -> 09:11 AM) Shy / Cali...just wanted to point out that you two have some awesome discussion going on and the way you all are handling the back and forth is also awesome! Thanks Jason. It's basically new school versus old school and I take a lot of pride in knowing baseball and how its played and I trust my eyes and years of keenly observing the game and players to form my opinions. I can be testy at times but I'm aware that certain words are unproductive to a discussion where both parties feel strongly about their opinions.

QUOTE (shysocks @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 01:50 PM) All right, I'll lay it out step by step. Keep in mind there is at least one other system, Baseball Prospecus'. Its data is behind a paywall. 1. We have pitch F/X data for pitches that were not swung at. I think you are misunderstanding this part: Pitch F/X is what determines the location of each pitch, not the author studying the path of the ball. It's just data he already has. It is not that much to ask that you trust the pitch F/X system. MLB trusts it enough to use it in the Gameday app. It has shown it can be slightly flawed in judging pitch type and velocity, but for pitch location – which is all we care about here – it is basically unimpeachable. Each of these data points was called either a strike or a ball by the umpire; that's something we also can't dispute. 2. We have an interpretation of the strike zone. Studying the rulebook strike zone wouldn't do us much good because the data shows umps do not follow it. So we want a "recognized" strike zone. To me the methodology makes plenty of sense. What is up for grabs is how much credit or blame to assign to the catcher, which the piece goes out of its way to acknowledge. I don't know the answer, and I've already gone out of my way to acknowledge that. But if you accept the premise that how a catcher receives the ball affects how the umpire sees it, then you have to accept that the catcher deserves some share of the credit or blame. And I don't see how you could deny that premise – that evidence is out there. How many times have we seen a catcher drop a pitch right down the middle and have the ump call it a ball, for example. I appreciate you making the effort and I'll also point out that I make an effort to get used to new stats. I don't say negative things too much any more about sabermetric offensive stats but the defensive ones are still a bit much to handle. I think pitchframing is cited way too often and people do trust the new data and guys like you who spout it for fear of falling behind the times or appearing stupid (ones who trust it without hesitation ,not you) Now too many people think Flowers was good defensively which is absurd because he might (and I say might with great hesitation) get some strikes called that aren't strikes . The data may say its 169 or 38 or somewhere in between but as you acknowledge just because the data has assigned it to the catcher doesn't mean its the catcher who caused the difference As for my issues . I've seen the Gameday app online many times And pitch f/x does follow the flight of the ball unless the graphics used on Gameday are for show.I know it also shows its ultimate destination. Even if the final location of the pitch is basically unimpeachable my issue stills lies with how its determined to be a ball or strike. In order to get a true view of the strike zone one first must see the stance of the hitter . Then to be truly accurate you need a directly overhead view of the plate This will determine if any part of the ball went over the plate. . Then you need a side view . After its determined that the pitch was over the plate , next you see if it was in the batters strike zone . While it was crossing the plate was it between his lower knees and whatever the upper part of the zone is now (varies from ump to ump). If pitch f/x uses all that then I apologize for wasting your time but I'm pretty sure it doesn't. So if I have it right it still takes a person prone to his own biases and judgments about the strike zone to call a ball or strike from what he sees as location from pitch f/x. I do accept that how the catcher catches the ball affects how the ump sees it but also how he sets up and catches the ball as close as possible to where he set up. The example you cited about dropping a pitch right down the middle and it being called a ball , frankly I don't see a lot. What I do see a lot more often is when a catcher sets up outside and the pitch goes inside and the catcher has to move a lot to catch the pitch, that pitch is called a ball when it appears to be a strike much more often. That means the ump is giving the catcher and the pitcher some credit for doing what they tried to do which in my eyes means the pitcher has to be accurate as to where the catcher sets up. I give the catcher almost no credit for crouching still and presenting a target and catching the pitch as quietly as possible ( meaning glove doesn't move very much after he catches the pitch). In other words, an umpire is more consistent and accurate when the pitcher displays those same qualities. Good discussing it with you though. I just don't think even if you do trust it ( which I don't) the significance of how important it is is pretty low. I mean if Flowers was 2nd in HR's or RBI's or in batting average or walks or OBP or slugging or OPS ,OPS+ or wRC it's highly doubtful he would be non tendered. There's a few guys out there whose defensive skills make the a much more valuable guy and Tyler Flowers isn't one of those guys by a longshot and that's the truer crux of the matter.

QUOTE (beautox @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 02:11 PM) Thank you! even Dave Cameron has said on several occasions that pitching framing and the added value to it is flawed because you can't accurately assign value to the catcher or the pitcher for making said pitch. Personally its refreshing to me to have a new catching core and i think it affords them the ability to go with a pretty hard platoon, health and herm willing the catching core should be able to provide above average offense and average defense. Navarro vs LHP .270/.336/.439 - wRC+ 110 Avila vs RHP .251/.358/.423 - wRC+ 116 thats for their respective careers. And also the problem with pitch framing is now people point to it and say Flowers is a good defensive catcher. His strongest point of value is his rapport with the pitchers and maybe how he calls a game ( debatable). That's it .He's terrible at blocking pitches in the dirt . It's not his fault he's a huge guy and just not nimble or quick enough. Why don't people trust their own eyes ?

QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 08:12 PM) Trades for Lawrie White Sox get: Brett Lawrie As get: Erik Johnson and Thaddius Lowry Trades for CarGo and DJ LeMahieu White Sox get: CarGo and LeMahieu Rockies get: Frankie Montas, Adam LaRoche, Carlos Sanchez and Avi Garcia Bold trade prediction White Sox trade Jose Quintana to the Dodgers White Sox get: Joc Pederson, Jose DeLeon and Austin Barnes Dodgers get: Jose Quintana Then after Hahn makes a flurry of trades, signs two pitchers: Doug Fister 3 years $36 million Trevor Cahill 1 year $4.5 million plus incentives (Coop'll fix him) Ok let's see how bad I get crucified If it takes EJ to get Lawrie that's too steep and the Sox only RH pitcher in the rotation though I see Fister and Cahill are both righty's.