CaliSoxFanViaSWside

I think the Sox deal for AL only players .

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 12:54 PM) Third base? I don't know. I see what you did there Abbott.

QUOTE (shysocks @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 09:55 AM) You edited so I'll add: I'm not that interested in teaching you anything, turns out. Than why are you bothering to defend pitch framing ? I'm not the only onnly one who thinks its useles . You wouldn't just be teaching me but un named others . I read the explanation given for the pitch f/x leaderboard but even he says "There's still plenty of work left to do on examining the strike zone and how it is actually called by umpires in baseball. Clearly, there is no one single strike zone. Its size and placement vary based on circumstances, just which are not yet fully determined." And he is still a guy interpreting data weather its pitch f/x or a camera makes no difference. He is following the path of the ball and making a judgment if that pitch should be called a strike or ball of which many variables effect that. He tries to take variables into account but I'm not so sure it's even possible . He also used this example: " using an actual example of Miguel Olivo this past season. Olivo in 2012 caught 4,929 pitches that a hitter didn't swing at; 1,693 (nZ) of them were deemed within the strike zone and should (simplistically) have resulted in 1,693 strike calls. Instead, 254 (zBall) of them were called a ball giving a zBall% of 15%." The key word there is "deemed". He is making a judgment ( not a fact) of balls within the strike zone just as an umpire does. He is making a judgment (his) on a judgment (the umps) is that not correct ? Only we are assuming his judgment is more accurate because he uses pitch f/x ? So I am supposed to trust his judgment of because mathematically he has eliminated as many variables as he can. Since I can't or won't be taking statistic classes or whatever math applies here I have to break it down in more simplistic terms which unfortunately many of us here have to do. Just because you trust the new data doesn't mean a damn thing to me. I have to assume too much here. Trust the data, trust the guy interpreting the data, trust pitch f/x , trust his math, trust his baseball knowledge, trust you. Sorry no can do.

QUOTE (shysocks @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 09:30 AM) PITCHF/x Look, no offense, but the fact that you thought this was based on a guy watching every pitch of every game makes it impossible to take your opinion seriously. You called it the most ridiculous stat in the history of baseball without knowing the first thing about it. So why show me Pitch F/X ? It uses no camera's? No computers ? Sonar ? Radar ? It's infallible ? If you are going to try and teach me something better give me the whole package. Does the person using pitch f/x see where the ball crossed the plate from over the top ? From the side ? Does it determine the height of the batter and determine his strike zone ? I don't see anything in what you showed me saying its used in pitch framing stats and even if it is why does the catcher get credit for it? Next year Flowers could be 20th in pitch framing for all we know. It's just another useless defensive stat based on judgment calls that you are saying "no I can tell you that catcher made the difference on that pitch being called a strike when he is only 1/3 of the people involved in that pitch with 100% accuracy. " Actually 1/4 of the people involved in the pitch if you count the batter and his strike zone based on his stance/crouch . Ricky Henderson is a good example of a hitters stance with his exaggerated crouch impacting an umpires determination of balls and strikes.

QUOTE (The Ginger Kid @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 09:10 AM) I love how there's a metric that determines that a catcher's framing caused an umpire to call a strike instead of a ball. Think about that for a minute. Oh yes and it impacts the count . Oh my goodness now its 0-1 instead of 1-0 the hitter is now at a disadvantage because of the catcher. Wait maybe its because of the pitcher. Maybe the ump blinked ? Maybe its because the pitcher has a reputation for always being around the plate and not walking a lot of guys. Maybe its because the guy looking at the film has every available camera replay to determine the the accuracy of ball and strike calls. And then he determines it's all because on a guy sitting back there catching a baseball as close to the plate as possible or somehow moving his glove ever so slightly to fool the poor boob behind the plate who gets paid to make the decisions.

QUOTE (shysocks @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 09:01 AM) Would love to see a citation on that because I'm pretty sure you're way off. The oft-cited leaderboard that had Flowers second shows 169 calls going in the Sox' favor when he caught. Regardless of how much credit you want to give Flowers for that, if you think it's unimportant you are wrong. Sorry. As for the other little things like positioning, if a guy does them whenever he can it will show up in his ratings. Not really sure how that's an argument. Framing is talked about because it has a direct impact on the count. It's on Southside Sox in the comments section. I knew that was the weakest part of what I said because I based it on my memory . You are so very gullible it's beyond belief weather its 38 or 169 makes no difference. Do you defend Avi because he has a strong arm ? It's just miniscule part of how a catcher plays defense. The fact that he can sit there relativity still makes it very easy to film/chart. You are just a new age disciple who pays homage to the new stat Gods of baseball without realizing there are too may variables in the equation to even begin to think its a thing that can be accurate to any degree.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 08:52 AM) most of those 38 are by Sale, so I still dont understand if its Flowers getting those called strikes or the fact the Ump also cannot pick up Sale's pitches. Now only the umps and pitchers rep. Wrap your mind around this. Another variable is the guy charting all this stuff. How does he determine that a pitch was a ball and/or strike ? How does he determine that ? Are all center field camera's directly in line with home plate ? Does he look at every pitch from a directly over head shot of home plate ? So now you got another Umpire with a computer and a pencil calling balls and strike based on cameras and camera angles of those pitches.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 05:42 AM) Flowers pitch framing was elite. Navarro's supposedly poor. Flowers did have a tough year behind the plate, Navarro is supposed to be decent behind the plate. This could be a good case study on the importance of pitch framing. Pitchers liked throwing to Flowers, but supposedly they like throwing to Navarro as well. All in all, it isn't an earth shattering upgrade, but perhaps change is good. Beckham, Flowers, Alexei...next year Danks and LaRoche. Avi supposedly on the block. They are running out of punching bags. Some outfielders have strong accurate arms yet they suck in all other areas of offense and defense . That's what bringing up pitch framing for Flowers reminds me of . How many people defend Avi and continually defend him based solely on his one and only ability that is above average ? The fact that PF is even a thing just shows you how gullible people are to even believe such a thing with so many variables involved in its accuracy is important. When all you believers are old I hope some con artist doesn't sell you swamp land in Florida because he can draw a pie chart of it.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 08:35 AM) Did they mention how many pitches in the zone that he got called balls? That would be an interesting counter metric. I actually thought of that when writing the post but figured I'd just stick to balls that are called strikes for the sake of the logic behind pitch framing . I hate even saying PF now . A lot.

QUOTE (Rooftop Shots @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 07:42 AM) Haven't read the whole thread, but I wonder what the long term plan is? 2 catchers signed for one year each. Wondering if possibly they are waiting to see how Weiters pans out after this year?/ ORRR if they have something else completely in mind that we may not be aware of. Long term plan on catching ? Here it is. Hope some catching prospect you have turns into gold. This is the long term plan in all of baseball. Even if you do get lucky and you find a catcher who can hit you probably turn him into a 1st baseman because his offense is too valuable to subject to the torture catchers go through. If you are even more lucky you find one who wants to catch everyday , somehow most years avoids taking too much of a beating and can actually field his position too.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 07:07 AM) This is why FanGraphs doesn't include it in fWAR, despite the fact that Prospectus clamors for it. Cameron isn't ready to assign 100% of the value of the "stolen strikes" to the catcher, but there isn't any data at all pointing to what fraction the the pitcher or catcher. It's universally acknowledged that it is a skill of the catcher and adds value, but the amount of value is not known. Certainly, it's some fraction of the actual value of the added strikes. I saw some graph on SSS that had Flowers getting 38 pitches outside the zone called strikes. A whole 38 if it's accurate . Woooo damn think how bad the Sox would be if they didn't get those 38 called strikes which by the way could be on the ump or a pitchers rep. Way way way too much discussion about it. Catching a fly ball properly gives you a better chance to throw out runners as do a lot of little things make you a better defender. The fact that it is easily charted is the only reason it's even talked about in this crazy environment of stats. All the other little things other fielders do is less definable. I'm actually surprised we haven't seen stats yet on how accurate infielders throw to first yet. Pitch framing talk is the most ridiculous new stat in the history of baseball.

Baseball will never lose its shine to me even though I never played little league or any kind of organized baseball. It was always just pick up games using a rubber ball played on schoolyard asphalt or playing fast pitch against a strike zone drawn on a wall. Dad is a Sox fan . Him and 2 of my brothers got their picture in a Family day photo in a program a long time ago. Went to Disco Demolition . Remember the Chuck Tanner Dick Allen days fondly. Winning Ugly . Richie Zisk and Oscar Gamble , Bill Veeck, all the terrible teams and players , all the uniform changes, Harry Carry/Jimmy Piersall ,Old Comiskey . 2005 the crowning achievement , yet every year no matter how awful I think they will be I still get the baseball package on DirecTV. Dad always said Johnny Mostil was a distant relative. Ken Berry and Joel Horlen were my childhood favorite players. Man it's just in my blood . If I stood next to Chris Sale you'd think I was his father , same height and weight basically even to this day I'm still a stick figure. Baseball reigns

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 2, 2015 -> 05:26 PM) Flowers framing was ignored by you when you had his batting average on your mind, now it is the most important thing around. I liked his framing as much as anyone, but cmon man. It is Tyler Flowers. No one wanted to take him off Hahns hands for a 25 year old A ballet. You touted his pitch framing more than anyone on here and always seemed like Flowers biggest supporter. You never seem to pick any side of the fence to stand on. Keep playing both sides of the fence ,Dick !

Man , I'm going to Wendy's and get me a Baconator !

QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Dec 2, 2015 -> 05:19 PM) @scotgregor: Would be surprised if Dioner Navarro was #WhiteSox new catcher target. They had no interest in him after 2013, when he was free agent @philgrogers: Something has to change w/#White Sox lineup but Flowers has value working w/pitchers. Dioner Navarro's a good guess at who's next. After 2013 was when I thought for sure he'd be on the Sox. I was pushing for it.

OH NOOOO whatever shall the Sox do without the #2 pitch framer in all of baseball and Chris Sales personal catcher ?!?! HAHAHAHA BS like I've said all along on both counts.

No ones said it yet so I have to.... Nancy Faust is an organ donor ! There , I feel much better now.

QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Dec 1, 2015 -> 05:54 AM) The As were higher on waiver priority IIRC Reading comprehension skills dude. I know, probably just woke up. He's saying the Sox should have got him before he was put on waivers anticipating that the Jays had no room for him after their flurry of trade activity at last years deadline.

QUOTE (bruni @ Dec 1, 2015 -> 05:48 AM) The real shame is that our asleep at the wheel front office failed to anticipate the release of Valencia from the Blue Jays last summer. He would have been a serviceable stop gap for 2 years until Michalczewski was ready (assuming he realizes his potential - eye roll, I know). Instead we will likely overpay for Lawrie or spend our limited budget on Freese. Either way, this team continues to tread water and get lapped by others in its own division, while wasting it's few upper tier talents. You might also conclude that the Jays would have realized he had value and tried to trade him instead to desperately seeking third baseman teams like the Sox instead of just giving him away. Not sure when they DFA'd him, August 1st ? Anyway probably right after the trade deadline so maybe Toronto pretty much had to DFA him since the trade deadline had passed. The jays were pretty buy getting players and maybe they just didn't have time to trade him after acquiring Tulo, Price, Revere .Revere was the last one picked up on 7/31 .

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Nov 30, 2015 -> 04:05 PM) I think Brett Lawrie should be considered a target if he can be had at a price that reflects his risk. If he didn't have warts, he wouldn't be available in the first place. For those that feel the Sox are in a payroll bind while also pot-committed, the only way to make up the talent gap cheaply is to gamble on some upside. Which is what I've been saying all along. That includes upside in their own players regardless that many fans have all of them pegged as utility players.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Nov 29, 2015 -> 09:33 PM) Signing Zimmerman to a 5 year deal, instead of the expected 7 years is pretty big. The Tigers should probably stop throwing large contracts around, but it's not really a bad deal on paper. But it will be. More ammo for the NL vs. AL war. I don't expect his ERA to be under 4.00 . That TJ surgery arm only has a certain amount of time in it.

QUOTE (soxfan49 @ Nov 29, 2015 -> 11:45 AM) Agree. My only concern now is getting more from guys like Shaw, Garbutt, Teuvo, Kruger, Kero, etc. Hossa has been playing well, the Anisimov line is on fire and Toews is Toews. Right now it looks like the scoring depth isn't there. In lieu of those guys stepping up the other key is the scoring from Keith, Seabrook and Hjalmarrson on the trip. I'm guessing Keith especially knows this and I've seen him deep in the offensive zone on more occasions recently than I have in a while.

Good job Kim wherever you are. Much appreciated everyone who contributes to Future Sox .

What a wild game at the end. Forgot it was a day game didn't DVR since I had to work. Come home to see how it ended in the highlights. Circus trip has turned pretty good the last few games.

Sayonara DV