CaliSoxFanViaSWside

QUOTE (LDF @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 04:42 AM) but here is a problem with cherry picking a specific part of the advance stats. LaRoche has an for an avg of hitting, 270 hitting avg, 20 hrs a yr, 500 + at bats. remember I am not trying to compare his stats to anyone else, just responding to your answer. Since he is 35 ( only 13 months younger than VMArt) I like to look for things that might indicate his career is trending down . The last 2 years he hasn't hit lefties well which to me is more important than than his career stats. VMart crushed all pitchers but if you can "cherry pick" me a clear signal that he is trending downward, be my guest.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 09:10 PM) 27. Brett Anderson, SP: The best gamble of the 2014 offseason is Anderson, still just 26 years old, still throwing hard from the left side despite myriad injuries. Because he’s coming off back surgery, he’s a bargain worth pursuing, big markets and small, for the significant upside. One of these years, he’s going to throw a full season, and when he does, his teammates will be thrilled they’re wearing the same uniform. from yahoo.com/sports (Jeff Passan, Free Agent Tracker) Of course, that leaves the left-handedness issue again...but if they could somehow trade Danks for Ethier (just an example), that would upgrade LF (although I'm still concerned Ethier is strictly a platoon guy at this stage) and exchange Danks for Anderson, you MIGHT just have something. Sale Quintana Anderson Noesi Bassitt (loser to bullpen) “A lion does not lose sleep over the opinions of sheep.” That is what Brett Anderson said about the fans on twitter . Passan listed him as the 27th best free agent while MLBTR has him at 48. It is a very optimistic rating for someone who can't stay on the mound to save his life.

QUOTE (LDF @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 04:54 AM) you are keying on 1 item. that is Dunn. I am not saying nothing of that. what I am saying is how you are replying to those who don't necessarily agree with your opinions. No you are keying on 1 item which is my Dunnitis comment . I listed other factors. . Again I have many posts in the VMart thread I started and not one person has taken offense to anything I have said while disagreeing with many of them. I could be wrong about VMart , I could be right. Time will tell. See this sentence " MOST (meaning most of the people who disagree with me ) would rather see the money spread out."

QUOTE (LDF @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 04:24 AM) you are way off base with this bolded statement. just b/c some doesn't agree with you, don't assume its anything more than looking for other options. I for one is looking for the best move, not the move that throws excessive money around. yeah so this is JR's money, but its a team that I like to follow. there are holes that needs to be filled. so some don't agree with you, does that mean you need to act soooo superior and demeaning b/c you are the only one who thinks he has all the answers! I've seen Dunn's name thrown in with quite a few posts when talking about VMart , not the vast majority of them of course but it is a factor just as the other things I listed are factors also. So it is not demeaning or superior when I see it with my own eyes as evidence. I think I was very fair with my OVERALL assessment.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 01:20 AM) Let's say they added Rasmus, LaRoche, Brett Anderson and Romo...along with the idea of Rodon joining the team at mid-season. Does anyone believe that's enough to put the White Sox in contention in 2015? We have to face the fact that outside of signing Scherzer, Lester, Sandoval, V-Mart or Hanley Ramirez, there aren't many INDIVIDUAL players who will move the meter until the Sox start winning again. The combination I listed above is going to cost around $37.5-45 million in added payroll, just a guess. I'd like to see your breakdown on who you think gets what with those 4. Anderson can't stay healthy, Romo throws an 88 mph FB, LaRoche can't hit lefties and Rasmus defensive metrics are dropping, his K rate is rising and he himself has questioned his love of the game. On the plus side none of them had a career yr ( or even close to it ) so that is a sure signal to snatch them up early because of all the teams who love to sign trending downward free agents for megabucks

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 08:19 PM) Sure its possible, just ask the Yanks. If it were up to me, this is how I would go about making the Sox a contender in 2015. Headley and VMart would be great additions and if Toronto signs Melky then the Sox could try for Rasmus. If not Rasmus, the Sox could look into an exchange of bad contracts like Danks for Andre Ethier. Essentially Ethier would add 3.75M to the current payroll which should allow plenty of space for Headley, VMart and a bullpen arm or maybe even two. IMO, this would would be the best way to fill in some holes while not trading away any prized prospects that the Sox have so few of in the first place. Since the Sox have so much room in payroll and a protected first rounder, it makes sense to hit the FA market. Problem is, will JR spend on multiple free agents. History says no but one can hope right? I think it's very possible because chances like this do not come along very often and the goal is to win is it not ? Trying to stay below $100M payroll and expecting to compete doesn't work out very often so take full advantage of that protected pick and go for it. Also lets not forget that TV money of $25M every yr through 2021, . It all won't go for player payroll of course but there is plenty of money available.

QUOTE (gosox41 @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 07:33 PM) Never trust players who have their best years when playing for a contract. I thought the Sox were going to get younger, faster with better defense/pitching. The team won 73 games last year. Getting V Mart probably means more wins but does he account for 17-20 more. Because that's how many more wins we need to win the division. I don't think so. So all getting V Mart does is hurt the Sox draft position. Or to put it another way, the Sox have too many holes to fill next year and lack the farm system and the budget to fill them. We need to keep improving the farm system and only make intelligent trades where we are not overpaying a player to win a few more games while he is in the decline of his career. If the Sox were one hitter away, that's a different story. They're not. Bob And again no one said VMart has to be the only addition. Also apparently best years are bad as are worst years and declining years so when do you exacting jump into the fray ?

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 12:44 PM) Two things that would make much more sense,IMO. 1- signing another FA hitter or two to go with the VMart signing. If the Sox are going to lose a pick, may as well use this year to sign FA's since the number one is protected regardless so at least the Sox keep that no matter what. Sign one or two other guys first and show VMart the Sox are committed to winning in 2015. Another advantage to this would be if the Sox sign a another player or two that cost picks, the Tigers end up with the Sox 3rd or 4th round pick as compensation instead of the 2 . I don't think anyone responded to this and if makes a whole lot of sense. Only sign as many free agents as you can afford that fit your team not just hitters. Let's say the Sox sign VMart and 2 other guys who were given a qualifying offer . Then we give up what ,a 2nd, 3rd and 4th rd pick in one draft class. Beats the hell out of losing #1 's in separate years. You could sign VMart , Melky or Headley and a few 2nd tier relievers (those who don't cost $9M+) or a SP . Is this possible ? Are there rules against beating the system in this way ?

QUOTE (TheFutureIsNear @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 03:47 PM) Non tendering Viciedo is crazy talk, not going to happen. Why? He's 25 years old right now and has hit 20+ HR's in 3 straight seasons. Now I'm not saying he should be given another year for us, but I refuse to believe that there isn't a team that would be willing to trade for him. I'm not even saying for a lot, but a young arm for the bullpen shouldn't be that hard to obtain in my opinion. I agree that Viciedo's got enough value to be tendered a contract but he has not hit 20+ HR 3 straight seasons since it was 25, 14 and 21 which averages out to 20/season exactly ,not 20+, nor 3 seasons in a row for the sake of accuracy when supporting your opinion.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 02:44 PM) I just think we can stomach it for this year while the payroll is really low. In years where we're maxing it out, I don't think you'd even consider it. That might actually be the plan this year. Go after free agents as many as you can afford . Any draft picks you lose will be 2nd round or later all in 1 draft class instead of say losing a 1st rounder next year if you sign a free agent. Take advantage of that protected pick this year unless there are rules to prevent this I don't know about. In that scenario you don't tender Tank a contract.

Bleacher Reports thinks Ervin Santana would be a good fit for the Sox .http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2253830-projecting-1-impact-signing-every-mlb-team-will-make-this-winter/page/7 But remember that article just says if every team signed 1 free agent who seems the most likely candidate.

From CSn in the foot injury article; The White Sox were impressed with the way Bassitt took the lessons he learned in his one month in the majors and applied them to the AFL. (Farm director Nick)Capra said Bassitt used all four of his pitches, including a changeup he learned to develop while with the White Sox. He also pitched inside more often and was more willing to pitch to both sides of the plate. “The experience he had in the big leagues taught this kid a lot,” Capra said. “It looks like he’s taking off with it.” 0.69 ERA and 22 K's , 3 walks in 13 innings in the AFL which we know can never be called a pitchers league.

I'd also like to point out that since I heavily rejoined the discussion the votes went from 23 for and 25 against to 25/25 . Seriously though I think that most people's minds were made up on this subject long before this thread. Any of you voters out there who were on the fence but reading the thread swayed you one way or another ?

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 02:02 PM) I think Abreu will be a fine mentor. Maybe LaRoche will be, too. And we know the fanbase will get excited when we win, not before (at least in any measurable sense), so I think think we should be focused on that overall. Also, wasn't Victor caught up in the middle of the Avi vs. Prince Fielder debacle? Maybe he was a mediator, but it's a definite possibility that Victor does NOT like Avi, especially considering it seems like Avi was pretty clearly in the wrong. Or at least, either no one was in the wrong or Avi was in the wrong. Remember the Sale/Martinez incident ? It was Avi who told Martinez that Sale thought he was getting signs from CF which is a more recent thing than the Fielder incident so I'm pretty sure Avi and Victor are friends. I think when talking mentors a fellow countryman will always be a better choice for influence. My many many yrs. of being a Sox and baseball fan tell me its the intangibles that often make a difference . So while I will always applaud your logical way of looking at things taking VMart from the Tigers and a possible adjustment yr. needed from LaRoche to facing AL pitchers at his age and the publicity surrounding a VMArt signing are things that can't be ignored or pushed aside as negligible.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 01:50 PM) But more pinch runners HA You know I knew you'd say that and I was going to put it in my posts and say don't you dare say more pinchrunners but if we're talking DH's they pretty much all need PR's. At least the one's you mentioned do.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 01:42 PM) I don't think anyone's disputing that Victor is the best hitter available this year, but they are all either substantially younger, substantially cheaper, or don't come with draft pick compensation. Balta's point, I think, is that there are other options and that there are always other options. I really think LaRoche is the best option. If we all agree that healthy expectations for Martinez and LaRoche are ~125 and 115 wRC+, respectively, then we're talking the difference in going with LaRoche equalling about getting 10% less offense for 50% fewer total dollars, 50% fewer years, and no draft pick compensation. You get most of the production and a bunch of money to spend on something else too. Also get no mentor for Avi and less excitement in the general fanbase for signing a superstar and we don't hurt the Tigers. Also I really hate National League hitters coming to the AL.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 01:43 PM) There's a decent chance Butler is even cheaper and his career numbers are just about as good as the other guys, the only Q I'm left with is what we do with the other lineup slots we have available. This wouldn't bother me that much if our manager was willing to put a series of righties together in the lineup but he's not, so we do need a LH bat there. Having Martinez would also mean less PH in the late innings Robin would have to think about.

QUOTE (LDF @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 12:42 PM) my problem stems from the number of yrs on the contract and salary demand per yr. I don't like adding a 4th yr either but maybe he gets 4 yrs, maybe he doesn't and right now he isn't making any "demands". If I had to guess what he'll "ask" for probably $18M+.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 12:55 PM) Just to point out how solvable this position is every year, in addition to Laroche, here's the WRC+ career for various guys who are also available: Michael Morse's: 122 Kendrys Morales: 111 Billy Butler: 117 Michael Cuddyer 117 Pablo Sandoval: 122 Dick was saying either a switch hitter or a LH because we need a LH badly . Morse ,Butler and Cuddyer are RH . Sandoval was pitiful against LH's this year and isn't a DH and Morales was just plain pitiful all around . Not solved at all.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 12:36 PM) I don't think his performance is any riskier than LaRoche's, but when you factor cost, Victor is a riskier proposition. Cost factors are just that VMart is better than LaRoche . The added benefit to having a VMart over LaRoche is his switch hitting greatness means you aren't hurt when those specialists are brought in and we all know the games can be won or lost when a team brings in a LH to face a guy like LaRoche. The more guys that don't have to be platooned that you have the better your chance of winning those tight late innings or extra innings games become. Also as a fellow Venezuelan I think his influence on Avi might pay great benefits to his development.

Guess the difference between our arguments is that I don't see VMart as the most risky by far. You mentioned Adam LaRoche as a possibility. He's 13 months younger than VMart but he's not very good against LH's. Of course he'd be cheaper and be able to play a better 1st base than Martinez in late innings and occasional starts. So he's essentially useless against LH's and his K's hurt you in those runner on 3rd and less than 2 out situations. Martinez has shown throughout his career that he is equally good against LH's and RH's . You also have the same arguments for rapid decline because of the similarities in age. Sure you can sign him for 1 or 2 less years probably but I'd rather have the guy who can be a bigger threat against all pitchers and in late innings when teams bring in a specialist.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 10:46 AM) That is what I believe too. It would be nice to think you know 6 or 7 guys in the White Sox regular line up 3 or 4 years from now and/or their rotation and bullpen, but I am not sure if it is BA or BP that projects the line ups 3 or 4 years down the road. They usually wind up with only a couple of guys correct. To say before the Sox fill this huge hole, they need to fill this hole and that hole, is IMO being timid. You need to fill the holes when you can. And if those holes cannot be filled now, at least the one you did fill should be filled for a couple of years at the very least until someone develops or another opportunity arises. Or you still are going to be in the same spot year after year. The Sox cannot continue to waste Sale and Q and to some extent, Abreu. If you are waiting for this system to develop all these players before you take any decent sized risks, history has shown, we will all be waiting a long time. What I get from this thread is that everyone voting no is looking for the " perfect fit" to spend the big money on like Abreu was. That and the possibility of money tied up on an injured or rapidly declining player. We got lucky with Abreu and unlucky with Dunn and Danks. These 3 things combined have Sox fans very wary of long term committments. I think established/veteran talent has to be added always because other players careers also go into that negative trajectory mode. What if Abreu becomes the player he was in the 2nd half ? What if Avi becomes what Eminor always thought he was ? What if Sale blows out his arm ? For planned steps forward there always seems to be unplanned steps backward. There are always going to be contracts we aren't happy about. There's just no getting around that in todays game. At least when you add talent and things go awry in other areas to screw up your season that talent is tradeable. If you keep dumpster diving a guy like Noesi , for instance, isn't worth as much in trade as that established vet because of the fear he will go back to being trash.

QUOTE (rneums33 @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 05:29 AM) Why all the no's to VMart? The guy is a pure hitter and is exactly what this lineup needs. A left handed (or switch hitting) bat to protect Abreu. I know he is 36 but all he will do is DH and maybe play 1st once in a while. 3 years of VMart at 36 will payoff better than 4 years of Dunn. VMart will still be producing when he is 39. Some guys are just pure hitters and he is one of them. Plus, we will hurt Detroit by taking him and who else on the market is a better bat than him? When the Sox signed Dunn all anyone could find was maybe 1 person who objected to it. Then there's how Dunn performed. So it's basically Dunnitis. The donkey kicked them and they're afraid to get anywhere close to it now. Also the Sox are a limited resources team so it's likely that VMart's AAV will be a record for a Sox player. Most would rather see the money spread out. $15-20M could buy 1 starting pitcher and 1 reliever potentially or some other combination of questionable talent.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 09:23 AM) Thats great, but I think acquisitions will be made with on eye on continuing to build forward. Signing Jose Fernandez to an Abreu like deal, trading for CarGo, adding a viable mid-rotation starting pitcher and adding some pieces to the bullpen will all increase payroll and keep the Sox investing for the future. VMart is just going to be too old and too expensive at the end of whatever deal he gets to make me think it will be a good move for the Sox. A 3 year conract is building forward for 3 years. In 3 years time half the roster won't be the same most likely.If we're lucky Bassitt, Rodon , Danish and Montas will all be established pitchers wreakng havoc in either the pen or rotation. Anything the Sox do now is a bridge or road to becoming that team with the killer rotation.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 02:10 PM) So your starting rotation is the 2 solid lefties, Noesi, Danks, and Bassitt, and you're telling me you think you have a competitive roster? Because I don't. If you're going to sign Martinez for a huge price, you better go into the season with a rotation that can win the division, because signing Martinez and going with a rotation like that sounds like wasting Martinez's probably best remaining season to me. Did you conveniently leave out Rodon because I think the Sox have him up for at least 75% or the year. He has just as good of a chance at the starting rotation as Bassitt does. If I had to guess Hahn will probably dip back into the SP reclamation project again hoping he can get some value . If it makes you feel any better put Bassitt in the pen and add Rodon to the starters. A great roation isn't necessary to make it to the post season if the pen can protect some leads and your defense played well . Is it me or is finding good defenders who can hit decently getting as hard as finding a good catcher ?