CaliSoxFanViaSWside

It's been this way for over 100 years .It will continue this way. It's much ado about nothing. Anyone who's played any amount of sports has been in situations that escalate. No one got hurt . Sale is the man . The end.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Sep 23, 2014 -> 08:30 PM) Lexi is stealing more bases and more efficiently than at any point in his career. He's not putting on weight. He'll age just fine for at least a few more years. Now, the debate about whether to trade him is different, but I think folks are underestimating the difficulty of finding a quality defensive SS that isn't a black hole on O. Semien, who I like, has 14 errors now in limited time, and has not convinced me he's an answer there. I know he'll age just fine and be good for the remainder of his contract but then he's nearing 35 and Vance Law is talking an extension ? I'm fine with Alexei I really am. Who wouldn't be ? But extension talk ? I know it's very hard to fill that position but I just filled DH with a great hitter and plugged holes in the bullpen and starting rotation with my plan. I'd be happy either way with keeping or trading him . I guess I have to keep repeating that. But since my plan won't happen see what you can get for him because we don't have much else worth trading as far as older guys worth a damn and still have lots of holes to fill.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Sep 22, 2014 -> 06:56 AM) He just looks like he's guessing on every pitch. IMO, if he is going to be a guess hitter, then we're probably seeing his ceiling right now. That said, he's still young and just missed a season. There's no reason to "give up" on him yet, but he's going to have to show substantial improvement in his pitch recognition and his approach to hitting next year if we're going to be able to depend on him as a future piece of the core. How on earth can you say he looks like he's guessing ? And is that a bad thing ? Most hitters guess at pitches . No one can hit a +FB with just reaction time alone . You have to be looking for it. Educated guessing is what separate's the good hitters from the mediocre. Know the game situation ,work the count , see ass many pitches as possible, know pitcher's tendencies by studying film and you can guess pretty damn good a lot of the time. It's being a smart hitter but it's still guessing.

QUOTE (Vance Law @ Sep 23, 2014 -> 08:08 PM) I was being hyperbolic I thought, but lo and behold: Fangraphs gives Jeter a -5.5 in 1996 Fangraphs gives Omar an 11.2 in 2007 In what ? Was Jeter 22 in 96 ? Was Vizquel an every day SS at 42 in 2007 ? Can't compare range between a regular and a part timer when range won't hold up playing every day at 42. Defensive metrics don't prove squat, thats why I said prove it. I'm supposed to know you're being hyberbolic how again ? If you're making a point saying how Alexei will age you should stick to facts. Hyberbole in order to make a point just comes off as not believing in your position enough to state the truth or facts.

QUOTE (Vance Law @ Sep 23, 2014 -> 08:00 PM) No it isn't. No it isn't He's better this year, one year older, than he was last year. The more his time under-contract decreases, the less he is worth in trade, but if there is intention to extend him, that is irrelevant. No it isn't All athletes are not the majority of athletes. You are odd. Wow. Maybe Hahn should be looking for all guys over 32 instead of young guys. All athletes are not the majority of athletes. Yea duh that's why I said the majority instead of all. Play the odds he's a SS not a 1st baseman. The position demands just a bit more athleticism which does not increase with age. Besides like Eminor I love the guy and if we can sign my free agents there's really no need to trade him. But like I said I'm leaning in the trade direction knowing the Sox won't sign 3 free agents.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Sep 23, 2014 -> 07:33 PM) C'mon fellas, Petricka, just like most every other bullpen arm in the big leagues, has pitched back to back games many a times. This isn't some "bonehead" Robin move. Putnam hadn't pitched since the 19th against TB I think. Correct me if I'm wrong.

QUOTE (Vance Law @ Sep 23, 2014 -> 07:09 PM) Jeter at 22 didn't have Alexei's range at 32, nor Vizquel's range at 42. Put me in the camp that says I don't think Alexei's defense is going to degrade much in the next few years. Agreed, now is prob the peak time if you're going to trade him. Signing him to an extension is also a reasonable thing to do. Their is logic on both sides of the Alexei debate. it could well be that the Sox see him as a core, must-have guy. Perhaps especially if we are breaking in a new second baseman and have average-at-very-best Gillaspie or even Davidson (yikes!) in the next few years. That's all anyone needs to understand. Speculating on how Alexei will age is pretty pointless. The older he gets the less he is worth . It's that simple. Time is not on the majority of athlete's side after 32. Edit; Also Jeter at 22 didn't have Omar's range at 42 ? Please ,that is outlandish. Feel free to prove it.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 23, 2014 -> 07:25 PM) It was a perfect pitcher's pitch with the cut he took IMO. He got the high fastball and stroked it right to center. I'd have preferred a more slappy type approach. Perfect pitchers pitch ? It was center cut just a bit up in the zone. A pitch that you can drive . Sure maybe you might want him to work the count after Conor's walk but Nathan was being careful with Conor and would rather have faced Sanchez. 1st pitch being a fastball was practically 100% guaranteed . If you know that it's coming you jump on it you don't slap at it. He jumped on it just didn't get the result. Slap hitting is for when you're down in the count just trying to stay alive.

And that's the difference between Cabrera and Abreu. Cabrera willing to get his pitch , Abreu thinking he had to go outside the zone to do it putting himself in a hole. Of course the HP ump helped Abreu come to that conclusion by calling that outside pitch a strike all game long.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 23, 2014 -> 07:17 PM) Lousy at bat by Carlos. Took the high pitch to center for the pop up. Damn. Sox gave it a good ol fashioned try. One hit from victory Carlos failed. Oh well. You say you played baseball on a HS team but I find it doubtful. That was the right pitch , He expected the fastball , got it, hit it decent , wasn't a pop up. Maybe he could've looked in a certain zone too , a bit lower perhaps but still was right thinking by Sanchez.

Sanchez had the right thought process . 1st pitch fastball with bases loaded to try and get ahead in the count. But no dice.

Ok Sanchez your turn .

C' mon Conor !

What a beautiful comeback. Poetic justice with that wide strike zone Price was gifted all night.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 23, 2014 -> 04:06 PM) Belisario and Lindstrom can't be traded for even a bag of baseballs because they won't be offered contracts to return. Dayan's iffy right now, that he's tendered a one year arbitration deal. The M's already have two young shortstops with some upside, especially Taylor, IMO. Miller's a great defender but iffy bat. While I could see them wanting to pair Ramirez with Cano to win now, they're not going to want to part with Jackson or Saunders to accomplish that. They MIGHT be willing to trade Miller and Maurer for Alexei, though, along with one more prospect in the minors or Smoak. Would you take Smoak OR Ackley, B. Miller and Maurer for Alexei? I wouldn't. Sure it SOUNDS good, 3 for 1, but I'm pretty sure none of those three guys would be key cogs in a future team, unless they were pretty sure they could fix Smoak hitting-wise or Maurer could become a closer. Finally, I'd rather gamble on Josh Beckett at half the price than Brandon McCarthy. And McCarthy's going to get 2 or 3 years. As far as flamings go you were rather mild. I don't care what the Sox do with Viciedo or Bellasario or Lindstrom . They'll be gone that's the point. An Alexei and Cano pairing would be great . You think an oft injured guy like Saunders is going to hold up the Mariners wanting to be that strong up the middle ? Maybe I built Saunders up too much but he's smart and does a lot of things well but his bat has never really played. That's why I think he can be had. Mariners need offense. Preferring Beckett over BMac is your right but I'll take the guy who has accomplished good things recently than a guy mulling retirement who tore his labrum. http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/mlb/story/_...ason-ends-early watch video if you're able.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Sep 23, 2014 -> 05:53 PM) I don't get the trade Alexi mentality unless it is something impossible to say no to. He seems the type of player who will get old around 42. He's one of the best SS and replacing him from the farm system will probably be another one of those deficits the Sox jinx themselves for years. How can you not get it ? Jeter isn't lasting til 42 . SS's in general lose a lot of range around Alexei 's age. He's coming off a good year and selling high is way better than getting nothing for him when we need to fill other holes. Have you even read the rationale offered up by others in the thread for trading him ? I thought it was pretty apparent why he should be traded . Unless the Sox can sign a bunch of free agents to fill holes ( my plan but highly unlikely ) that leaves trading as the alternative and we got nothing to trade unless you want minor league guys traded and that's just not going to happen. He is not irreplaceable and it doesn't have to be a guy from the farm.

I haven't seen a pitcher (Price) get so many strikes called on balls off the plate since Greg Maddux.

Ok after discussing it all thread I think I'm ready to be flamed. Three Yeps. 1. and ultimately most important one that must be accomplished early in the off season. Sign Victor Martinez This will send a message to the rest of the free agents and our own fans that we are ready to contend now. Yes he's old but having a monster year and often described as one the most intelligent hitters in baseball. I'd start the bidding at 3yrs $45M and be willing to go 3/$60M . Do you want to see Abreu pitched around even more than he has been since it became apparent he was a stud ? Abreu becomes less valuable without a deterrent to always walking him. Martinez instantly solves this. Rather than try to figure out who the best LH hitting outfielders are like the perpetual enigmas Colby Rasmus or Melky Cabrera you put your money on a sure thing and VMart is the closest bet to a sure thing as a hitter as you're going to find. You just don't fall off a cliff after the career and year he's had barring injury. He is also Venezuelan as is Avi Garcia who could benefit immensely from having VMart around. It also just might increase season ticket sales . 2. Sign more free agents particularly David Robertson and Brandon McCarthy We all know the bullpen needs a closer and since we signed VMart we will need a closer . These guys won't come cheap since they both have had good years . Maybe VMart plus these 2 adds $45M per yr to the annual payroll and if each can be signed for 3 yrs. it doesn't strangle the payroll for too long. It should really help towards fixing the bullpen and adding another starter which we'll need to do both in order to contend in 2015. If by some miracle the Sox manage to sign all 3 we can then either keep or trade Alexei for either minor leaguers or wherever the ML team might need help perhaps another BP arm . I lean towards trading him because he's valuable and now that we signed 3 free agents all in their 30's we need more youth. Now that we have signed all 3 we have a window of contention to work the young starting pitching into the rotation . Rodon, Bassitt, Montas, Danish even Erik Johnson if he can somehow find his way back to where he was. 3.Make the team more baseball savvy This of course started with the signing of VMart who understands hitting. Their are certain guys out there known for being ballplayers , high baseball IQ's good fielders , sound fundamentally , good base runners. One of these guys is LH OF Michael Saunders who at 28 for next yr. might be ready to have his best seasons if he can stay healthy . Maybe Alexi to the Mariners for Saunders and a prospect . Saunders is rare in that early in his career he wasn't an OBP guy but has somehow become one though he hasn't yet broken through with a high batting average. He has decent pop which would play better here than in Seattle. 3 Nopes 1.Don't keep Dayan Viciedo . He and Alexei, Bellasario, Lindstrom can all be traded for other meat puppets. 2. Don't waste time or resources trying to find a catcher , not even a prospect. I thought that's why we kept Nieto on the roster all year. Is he not a prospect ? Flowers will do just fine. If Nieto is destined to be a minor leaguer now that he's spent the whole year with us add a veteran catcher who comes cheap ,a LH since Flowers is RH who has good defensive skills. Catchers are woefully bad hitters nowadays so whats the sense of trying to find a needle in a haystack ? 3. Never stop trying to find a taker for John Danks . Package him with Alexei, eat half or more of his salary if need be. Maybe the Yanks take him if they show us they want Alexei bad enough. I actually wouldn't mind keeping him but we just signed a bunch of free agents so now he really has to go. He's working very hard to try to get become better and he just might.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Sep 23, 2014 -> 12:46 PM) I NEVER thought I'd say this even a few months ago but I think I'd stick with Flowers at catcher and use resources elsewhere. I'm with you there. I recommended Flowers be non tendered last off season but I also advocated not trading for a catcher at the trade deadline because they all suck.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 23, 2014 -> 12:36 PM) That's where this whole idea falls apart. The Yankees have legit concerns about even being able to afford Hanley Ramirez, they're looking at $170 million in commitments and that's not even keeping Robertson. Would you bring in another bad contract on the pitching side when you already have Sabathia, the inherent/ongoing risks with Tanaka, A-Rod, etc.? I know I wouldn't. Plus, they have Greene and Pineda, there's zero reason they HAVE to take on another bad contract. http://sports.yahoo.com/news/hanley-ramire...-173002313.html If they weren't asking for Betances, they might be able to dangle Ramirez and attach Danks to that deal (like Teahen/EJax with much bigger financial stakes)...but there's no way they make any type of move and get the likes of Hughes and Betances back without eating at least 50-75% of Danks' deal. And then you're having to replace Alexei Ramirez, which obviously won't be easy. I did say eat some of his contract . Heck eat half of it so Yanks add Alexei $10M and Danks $7M = 17M minus the 12 M they paid Jeter this yr and they're really paying $5M for 2015 for a very good durable SS and a LH starting pitcher and giving up just a relief pitcher albeit a very good one. Of course Alexei and Danks both have another yr after that on their contracts but at least it takes out the sting for the 1st yr.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 23, 2014 -> 12:00 PM) With the control the White Sox still have over Alexei, my asking price starts at Gary Sanchez and moves on from there. Both ends of the spectrum between yours and Caulfields responses. I'm more in line with Caulfield . The Yanks wouldn't trade Betances for Alexei and Gary Sanchez isn't at all what he's cracked up to be . He's had discipline problems at AA and didnt hit all that well. If you want instant contender , VMart, Robertson,and BMac gives you a very strong 2015 . Try getting the Yanks to take Danks too while your at it .Even eat some salary if you think you can sign the FA's I mentioned . Heck I might trade Alexei and Danks both for Betances if I knew I could sign VMart, Robertson and BMac with Rodon and Bassitt on the horizon with the outside chance Erik Johson could bounce back. Pen fixed, rotation fixed , lineup much stronger. If you think Robertson and BMac add up to $24M /yr and lets say 2/3 yrs of VMart at $20M /yr that's $44M added to the annual payroll minus Danks salary of $14 M is only $30M added to the annual payroll for a 3 yr period maybe for each player. By the time those contracts end Rodon or Bassitt or Montas or Danish or some combination of them move into the rotation so not only do you have instant contender but a window to work the young pitchers into the rotation while still competing.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 23, 2014 -> 11:37 AM) Trade a reliever for Alexei? Surely we can do better than that. Just throwing out some Yankees names who the Sox might like. If Robertson and McCarthy are free agents then sign them both.and VMart and the Sox are done . Closer and starting pitcher both not in the upper tier. Though McCarthy has pitched so well for the Yanks could he get a QO ? Betances was an all star this year wasn't he and Alexei is a 33 yr old SS after all . Signing Robertson and McCarthy and getting Betances would go a long way to fixing the pen and the rotation. Then just sign Vmart and fill the hole at SS however you please. Wonder what it would cost in years and money to sign all 3 of those free agents.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Sep 23, 2014 -> 10:37 AM) All good food for thought. Think the Yankee's would be willing to part with Dellin Betances for Alexei ? Maybe David Robertson or Brandon McCarthy ? Yankees probably go for Scherzer or Shields ,can afford to give up McCarthy maybe a prospect with McCarthy.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Sep 23, 2014 -> 08:12 AM) A different take on an offseason thread that I hope will invite some thoughtful responses. The rules: First name three moves the Sox absolutely need to MAKE this offseason, then name three moves the Sox absolutely need to AVOID this offseason. To wit: Three YEPS: 1. Sign Russell Martin at anything up to 4yr/$60m -- He will NOT ever be as good at the plate as he was this year, but that's okay because he was a MONSTER this year and doesn't need to be to make the deal worth it. He has a career high 145 wRC+ this season, but all we need from him is about 100, and his career line is 106. THat would make him an elite defender with a league average bat who also happens to bring Veteran Leadership™ to the table. Even if his bat begins to decline immediately, game-calling and pitch-framing tend to improve with experience, and having that kind of glove back there witha bat that doesn't kill you is worth its weight in blood diamonds. Admittedly, this was a much more attractive option when I first started clamoring for it midseason before the national media caught the scent, and he's going to be expensive as a result, but when you take a look around at the free agent classes of the next couple years and try to find ones that are going to pay dividends both immediately AND going forward, this is one of the few that jump out. And if paying Martin $14m a year is your big money acquisition, you're not really risking much, especially with our current payroll commitments being so low. 2. Trade Alexei Ramirez, probably to the Yankees -- I love Alexei. I really do. I have bragged about Alexei being the most underrated player in the game to all my friends for about four years now. But there are two reasons that it's time to move on: (1) he will be 33 years old, meaning that his defense will most likely decline as soon as next season, meaning that he will NOT be the player he is today when we need him the most a couple years down the line, and (2) we have a glut of MI prospects in the advanced levels of our minors, all of whom need a shot to stick at the majors. It is the position we are best able to fill with AT LEAST a stopgap. The market will be ripe this offseason as several big names will be looking for a SS, most notably the Yankees (who not only want a SS, but also one that will be an immediate contributor but won't require a long-term commitment, which is EXACTLY what Alexei is), who just happen to have a bunch of extra decent catching prospects laying around, which just happens to be exactly what our system needs. Even if none of the guys in the minor can cut it at SS, we have Leury, who can hold the position down admirably on defense until Tim Anderson or whoever is ready. Alexei is great, but he's not likely to be a part of our next contender, so it's time to move him while he has value and we have the in-house candidates to replace him. 3. Acquire TWO corner outfielders -- It is time for Dayan Vicedo to go. I have always, ALWAYS been down on Viciedo and have always been willing to go down in flames if he broke out. Remember when I agreed you guys could stone me if he was good? Well he's not. He sucks. He has to go. "But Eminor, he hit a few homers the other day!" Yeah, look at his line this year: .231/.281/.405 with 21 HR (87 wRC+). "But Eminor, right-handed power is at a premium!" Yeah, but when you do everything else like a minor league utility player (except defense, which you do like Carlos Lee), you do more harm than good. Just for reference, 87 wRC+ is 13% below league average, and is exactly equal to the average MLB shortstop. We should give him to Seattle or something for anything in return. But he should be replaced with TWO OFs, at least one of which needs to be left-handed. What this does is make our team more like Oakland in that it will allow us to play match-ups like crazy. THIS is what the rotating DH should look like: four starting outfielders, and extra starting caliber corner infielder, mixed handedness, use DH to make sure the best/hottest guys are in the lineup every night, maximizing platoon advantage and ensuring good health. Giving Abreu some days off, too. I think we sign one (maybe a mid-tier guy, maybe a reclamation. Probably not Markakis even though he makes sense in every way except price) and trade for another. Another guy like Eaton would be ideal but let's not kid ourselves. If we spend more on the FA, maybe the trade is for the reclamation guy. Dominic Brown? I don't know, but we need two. Three NOPES: 1. Do NOT sign James Shields -- He has been a great pitcher, had a cool career, he's eaten us up, I get it. But he's going to be 33 and is already experiencing the effects of a natural decline. His velocity is down and he's now relying much more on contact than before, which has kept his K/BB rates good, but cannot go on forever. Also, it's risky because you rely more on BABIP luck and good defense to get by. Shileds would be good next year, but already worse than this year, and it'll keep going downhill as his velocity goes. Given what he's going to cost (I'm guessing roughly 5yr/$100m plus a draft pick), we just are not ready to mortgage our future for 2015. It's just the wrong time, both for us and him. 2. Do NOT sign Victor Martinez -- This dude is about to get PAID. He's also really old, really injury prone, and really REALLY unlikely ever to touch what he did this year again. I'm not saying he's going to be useless, but guys at his age are one knee injury from becoming bums (see Carlos Beltran), and even if he stays healthy, you're not going to get that value back to justify the cost of what this season si about to earn him. He may be in line for 3yr/$60m. Also, locking up the DH spot with a one-dimensional player takes away our ability to do my rotating DH/platoon OF thing. This is money that can go toward Russell Martin! 3. Do NOT alter the pitching plan -- It didn't work out this year. With the exception of Noesi, all of our bullpen and rotation upside plays busted. That is NOT likely to happen again. It's a process that has worked wonders for several franchises in our position. We need to do a better job of selecting them, but the plan is sound. Do not let Felipe Paulino cloud your judgement, Hahn. Continue to leverage your pitching development staff, continue to find assets that can be moved if necessary, continue to find assets that don't block anyone, and continue to fish for upside. I like the trade Alexei part , though if you rid the Sox of Viciedo and Alexei . Abreu has no countrymen except Nieto who is most likely in the minors next year. Probably won't matter much to a hitter like Abreu but it's something to discuss. Alexei's coming off a good season and the time to trade him is now. Leury at SS though, yuckie ! Remember Jose Inglesias is coming back from injury next year ( http://www.sportsoverdose.com/mlb-players/jose-iglesias ) and that Suarez kid has looked pretty damn good at SS for the Tigers. Too bad its inter-division but Tigers might be willing to move one or the other now that Suarez has held his own. Not sure about the Russell Martin thing meaning highly doubtful we get him since so many other teams have deeper pockets and catching is at such a premium. Is this a career year for Flowers or has all the studying he's done of great hitters paid off into a league average catcher , which frankly, would be fine with me because... We need more a few more good relief pitchers. Is that altering the pitching plan ? Bottom feeding for pitchers isn't what I'd call a plan if you want to compete. Maybe Erik Johnson can rebound as a starter or try him in the pen. But Sox do have some great arms in the system but arrival time is so crucial when you have guys like Sale and Abreu . Can't wait too long . I was wondering what teams have benefited from that approach ? Maybe the Cubs come to mind but I'd like some from the AL because ,frankly , it's a different game in the NL . I'm always leery of getting NL pitchers. I wanted Ellsbury last year but I do like Sierra. The guy is a tool shed. Seems great ( or annoying depending how you respond to his love) in the dugout and has played well for the Sox . Sort of suffered since trying to build Viciedo's value. The Sox rebuild really suffered a big blow this year despite several guys like Abreu, Eaton and, Gillaspie all emerging but about 8 guys you wanted to see emerge sucking or getting injured. I'd like Saunders from the Mariners and hopefully they are willing to move him if they still want Viciedo ( ha right) . If the Sox do want to compete next year then a bat like VMart is a must. Again will probably be outbid but his numbers are astounding. How fast could he really fall off ? I think Abreu could deal with losing his Cuban countrymen if he had VMART next to him in the lineup. Try pitching around Abreu now suckers ! You get to face VMArt instead of Conor or Avi. If no VMart then the Sox seem to be putting a lot of weight that your favorite ( ) Avi Garcia will produce and/ or improve the defense and relief pitching a lot , which then might preclude trading Alexei. Of course we would need another quality starter then also. A lot of directions this can go. The 1st major trade or signing will point us to what Hahn has in mind .

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 23, 2014 -> 08:30 AM) Cargo's the most interesting name (to me) on that list, and certainly more interesting than Josh Hamilton or Ethier/Crawford. But he'd have to be 100% healthy to make that kind of gamble. Saunders is a much better player for Seattle then he would be playing 81 home games at USCF...for a long time, I always confused him and Michael Brantley until Brantley became something approximating a stud this season for the Indians. Someone mentioned Bonifacio before....yet another rebound candidate, not sure I'd pair him with Eaton, though. I'm not sure what you say about Saunders is true. No one can be expected to put up decent power numbers in Seattle . Saunders might get better HR numbers here. He might be ready to bloom at 28 next year as a hitter if he can stay healthy. I like him a lot just for his baseball smarts , speed and good base running. I really like the fact he improved his plate discipline a lot. Just a smart ballplayer good at everything. Now if only he could stay healthy .