nitetrain8601

The purpose of my long winded post was to be as objective as I can be. With that stated, I personally feel Paxsons time is expired as has been since 08. I do think he's good at changing a culture and taking a team from nothing. But then he falls in love too much with pieces and let's them expire. I feel there is a double standard when it comes to Paxson versus all other Chicago sports teams. The whole, well we don't have a LeBron argument is tired and a bunch of BS. Golden State didn't stop trying to build when LeBron was owning them in 2007. But we don't have a Stephen Curry! Neither did San Antonio. Yes you need great players to win. The Bulls simply don't do enough to acquire those type of players. They're very reactionary. Very slow at the wheel. Oh, he's available?? Let's try to go after him while another team has already had the jump. Bulls had a chance at prime Melo and declined. They had a shot at prime Kobe and failed. They lost out on their first four options in the 2010 fa class. Yes, Paxson was dealt a bad hand when Rose tore his acl. But when that happened, shouldn't Paxson tried to increase the talent exponentially to make sure he didn't have to carry the team? When Caron Butler, Jamal Crawford wanted to sign after Roses MVP season, and you trot out Richard Hamilton instead, you deserve blame. When you ignore the backup PG spot until the season is about to start every year, you deserve blame. After Rose tore his meniscus, you should've started to look for alternatives. You don't deal Korver for a bag of air. You don't hold onto Deng until he falls apart. You don't keep Ben Gordon until he just leaves. You don't hang onto Asik when you have Noah and you need a wing player like Courtney Lee. You call OKC and ask if he's available when you know OKC can't pay him and Ibaka. You don't hang into Taj Gibson when he can be replaced and a lesser rate. Lastly, when you have 13 years to win and you haven't even sniffed a Finals appearance, you get fired in every sport or on any other team. When you're core is the same as it was 5 years ago when it wasn't good enough and its on the wrong side of the hill, you don't keep your job. Lastly, when you bet on the exact same roster and fire your 2nd handpicked coach to hire someone else who is supposed to improve the offense, and he actually makes it worse, you don't get to keep your job. That's failure.

I can see Cleveland trading Mozgov and JR Smith for someone like Joe Johnson and/or Brook Lopez(both sides might need to put more in).

It's late, even on the West Coast, but I feel like having to reply to this thread. First thing I'll say is that I agree. GarPax has had 13 years to field a championship caliber team, only one year did they. And it actually happened on accident if you think about it. This is going to be a long winded post, so I summarized it in the first two sentences. Here's my defense for this thread(though I didn't make it): Lovie and Jerry Angelo had 8 years to turn the Bears into championship contenders. At the very least, they made it to the Super Bowl in one of those years and had a good shot at winning that game in a tougher sport. They also had made the playoffs before and Lovie's final year, he went 10-6 with the team taking a nosedive the year he left. Usually that indicates good coaching. Bears and their fans didn't believe so. White Sox won a WS in 2005, but we all want KW fired. Cubs have fired different guys since Paxson stepped in for the Bulls trying to get the job done. Fact is, the Chicago Fire FO has received more criticism and calls for firings than GarPax has. Stating the opposite is indefensible. Local media has all criticized the other teams in this town, but the Bulls have always gotten a free pass. Paxson had actually a good drafting record when he first started. He hit on Kirk, Gordon, Deng and Duhon was a good backup PG. 4 players with his first 4 tries, he hit on. His strategy on the trade market and acquiring assets was working. He dumped Jamal Crawford and Eddy Curry at the right time and for as good as a package as you can get when teams know you don't want those players anymore. Even with trading those guys, through his drafting, he turned the Bulls into a playoff team which this city starved for. They had a good coach in Skiles who demanded effort and the Baby Bulls were on the rise. He trades Tyson Chandler so he can free up space for Ben Wallace. They slightly overpaid at the time, but it was a solid move as he felt this would help the Bulls get to the next level (sidenote, I think this is where Paxson turned into a bad GM/VP). It actually works out despite squabbles with Big Ben who we knew loved to wear his fro out and bandanas in Detroit, and who Paxson suddenly tried to neuter with the help of Skiles. In the end, Bulls lay waste of the defending champs, make it to the 2nd round, and play Detroit tough(just weren't ready). We all thought they were on the way. The following year, Ben's displeasure with the Bulls grows louder because he feels like he's being treated like a kid and not like the defending champ he is. His game tanks as a result as he just doesn't give an eff anymore. Chandler is revived in NO with Chris Paul and the Bulls have nothing to show from the Chandler deal as the best piece they got(JR Smith) was waived in 10 minutes because Paxson needed guys who wouldn't rock the boat and he was the type to let a players past shape his thoughts(whether right or wrong). All of this is even worse as the Bulls start off slow and Skiles bickered with the FO over an extension who they played hardball on for no reason. Skiles is fired during the Christmas holiday with a bad taste in his mouth. Wallace is dealt to Cleveland for a bag of balls as he's grown to be a malcontent at this point and the Bulls miss the playoffs horribly. To make matters worse, Gar Forman's first pick Tyrus Thomas doesn't develop as fast as they hoped while LaMarcus Aldridge is showing flashes of brilliance in Portland, but not enough to be the main storyline. Joakim Noah doesn't look like much either and ends up fighting with the coaching staff alot. Bulls luck into Derrick Rose as they had a less than 2% chance of winning the draft lottery. They win the #1 pick and draft him. Vinny Del Negro is hired as coach, though he had no previous coaching experience. This was Paxson's choice. The Bulls end up creeping into the playoffs and give us the greatest basketball playoff series ever. Rose makes rookie history in his first playoff game and the Bulls are excited about their past and current core meshing together. The team's leading scorer is not given a new deal as the front office preferred to not waste the money on him(here's where I started seeing Paxson's flaws as he let his leading scorer and his best SG since Jordan leave with no compensation and no plans to replace him while keeping Luol Deng who didn't fit under VDN). The team highlight, Paxson's last good trade, was actually an accident as well. Andres Nocioni who hadn't lived up to his contract, Michael Ruffin, Drew Gooden and Cedric Simmons are all traded as a cap dump for Brad Miller and John Salmons. Salmons played out of this world for the rest of the season, forming a great 1-2-3 punch with Rose and Gordon. Miller became a good mentor for Joakim Noah. Salmons is kept, but quickly discovered as a guy who just had a great half to a season and nothing more. Bulls get trounced by LeBron's Cavs. Bulls drafted Taj Gibson and James Johnson before the season. Johnson was another Forman pick. It is found out by Adrian Woj, that the Paxson got into a physical altercation with VDN over the handling of Joakim Noah's minutes when coming back from injury. Noah was to be on a minute's restriction, but played more minutes in a tight game in which VDN asked Noah if he would be willing to go in and Noah answered yes. Bulls hire Tom Thibodeau. He brings along Ron Adams who previously clashed with Joakim Noah, but who grows a strong bond with budding star, Derrick Rose. Bulls miss out on Joe Johnson, LeBron James, Chris Bosh, and Dwayne Wade. They sign JJ Redick to an offer sheet which is quickly matched by Orlando. They move onto Plan C and sign Carlos Boozer, Ronnie Brewer, Kyle Korver and CJ Watson. They drafted Kevin Saraphin who is dealt with an aging Kirk Hinrich to WAS for cap space. With Thibs' system of effort everyday and freedom on offense while also making Luol Deng an integral part of the team, the Bulls shock the world and have a winning record against the Heatles. They lead the Eastern Conference in wins despite having Boozer and Noah miss large chunks of the season and Keith Bogans on their roster. Omer Asik shows he's a viable C in Thibs' rotation along with aging Kurt Thomas. Paxson's pickups worked out and they have the MVP. Bulls are bounced in the ECF in a close every game, but not close series (miami heat). Denver wants to deal Carmelo Anthony after he requests trade, but Bulls refuse to deal Joakim Noah in any deal. Melo eventually goes to NY. Bulls enter the 2010-2011 season as a true contender. They draft Jimmy Butler who is a relative unknown out of Marquette. They decide an aging and agitated Richard Hamilton is the answer at SG over options such as OJ Mayo, Courtney Lee, all-star level Caron Butler, and Jamal Crawford to name a few. Bulls start lockout shortened season where they left off, and that's winning. Nagging injuries get to the team's star in Derrick rose, but he returns for the playoffs and tears his ACL in Game 1. Bulls choke against the 8th seed and lose. Bulls draft Marquis Teague over the wishes of Tom Thibs and Ron Adams to draft Draymond Green. Bulls breakup the bench mob and deal Korver for a TPE they never used. This after letting go of Ronnie Brewer and CJ Watson. They sign Nate Robinson as roster filler, eventually cut ties with disgruntled Richard Hamilton, and sign Kirk Hinrich over OJ Mayo though Hinrich's best years being clearly behind him and the Bulls needing shooting. With all the injuries, Butler develops under Tom T's demand for effort. Bulls win an exciting series over the Nets with MVP candidate Joakim Noah and Nate Robinson leading the way and take a game from eventual champion Miami Heat despite being outnumbered. Bulls do not extend Ron Adams after him and Thibs struggle in a power play with Gar Forman. Thibs is upset with this, but still has backing of JR and VP John Paxson. Thibs also takes a year to sign extension deal. Bulls drafted Tony Snell who just isn't an NBA rotation player. Rumors come out about infighting by the FO with Thibs. Derrick Rose comes back after a year and a half absence and tries to play super fast. He tears his meniscus in about 10 games. Season is lost. Bulls make no deadline deals to obtain anyone which came after an offseason in which they let go of fan favorite, Nate Robinson. DJ Augustin does an admirable job off of the scrapheap. Bulls miss scoring for the 3rd year in a row and Paxson does nothing. Despite Rose missing most of the season again, Bulls continue to count on him being a championship level player. They draft Doug McDermott after trading Jusef Nurkic and Gary Harris and a 2nd rounder. Bulls try to woo Carmelo Anthony, but he decides to stay in NY over the Bulls. Pau Gasol signs with the Bulls citing Tom Thibodeau as the main reason along with Joakim Noah recruiting him. Front office feels the Bulls have enough to compete again. Bulls sign Aaron Brooks as a backup PG and continue to hope Rose becomes an MVP again. They have their best chance since 2010 with Rose healthy enough for the playoffs and Cleveland missing 1 part of their big 3. Bulls are up 2-1 after a Rose buzzer beater in Game 3. Bulls are about to go up 3-1, but LeBron hits a shot which changes complexion of series. Constant in-fighting between the coach and FO comes to a head. Players are sick of it, Bulls fire Thibs and hire Hoiberg. Bulls make no moves, other than drafting at their pick to draft Bobby Portis. This shows a sign of GarPax believing they had enough and Thibs being the scapegoat. Bulls begin 2015-16 no different than the previous year and in some ways worse under new coach and handpicked chosen boy, Fred Hoiberg. Butler, the team's new start, voices his displeasure with the head coach. Offense, which was supposed to be improved turns way worse, defense gets slightly better. Inefficiencies in Paxson's regime finally start to be talked about - lack of consolidating talent, holding onto assets too long, playing favorites with players, not making deadline deals, not being able to close a deal with a top player in FA, and never being able to acquire legit 2nd options on offense either via trade or FA. Bulls only good pick being Jimmy Butler who developed heavily under Thibs with McDermott and Mirotic showing they can be serviceable NBA players. Bulls have a logjam in the front court with Noah, Gasol, Mirotic, Gibson and Portis and still need help at the wing. Paxson refuses to deal any of his frontcourt players and Noah gets hurt while also being hurt about losing starting job. Portis shows signs of being as good if not better than Gibson, but he is not dealt for help either. Noah doesn't fit in Hoiberg's offense. Rose can't run Hoiberg's offense(or run at all at times). Rose is still injury prone after 5 years of showing he can't be depended on. GarPax is surprised and so are fans. Media and fans say, "you want us to try? how about when LeBron and Steph Curry retire". This post is very long, but I figured to give you insight on the good and bad of Paxson. In the end, his stubborness is what has costed the team and he's been a mid tier at best, if not lower tier(only held up by drafting which has gotten worse over the past 5 years) VP/GM. Backup PG is a revolving hole of Hinrich's corpse, some ETwan/DaQuan Cook/JamesOn Curry type of player and Aaron Brooks or CJ Watson. Bulls waited too long to deal Noah(should've been dealt at peak value after MVP type season), Deng and let go of Korver, Asik, and Gordon for nothing. Bulls under him (after 2007 season when they beat the heat in the playoffs) became very reactionary and they're pretty much asleep at the wheel until a coach does what he thinks is right or when it's turn to draft.

I'd be down for an on base guy. What happened to Jose Fernandez who defected as well? I'm talking about the 2nd baseman.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 01:53 AM) http://sports.yahoo.com/news/justin-upton-...826169-mlb.html This Jeff Passan article's also in the Cespedes thread, but well worth reading. I hope it gets delivered to JR, the Pohlads in Minnesota and the Dolans of Cleveland. Somehow I doubt if DET ever does win the World Series that their fans will give it back because their owner's spending was more wasteful...the Ernst & Young MLB "Most Efficient Maximization of Given Resources" Trophy doesn't belong in a trophy case any more than the Attendance Cup does. I haven't read the article, but I don't think you should be wasteful to just say you got someone. I've wanted Cespedes or Upton for awhile. With that stated, I'm not going to say it's a mistake not signing him. There are reasons not to sign someone. My thing is, if you won't sign him because you are still far off from contending and he'll cost big bucks, then you're being just as wasteful, holding onto the "impact" players you do have because you need a ton more pieces than them. Imagine if Chris Sale was on the trade market. You would've gotten 2 or 3 young players who are MLB ready and who have great tools to be great everyday players. Imagine if Q hit the trade market and might even be able to dump one of Danks or LaRoche with him. You would probably get another 2-3 prospects(not as good as the Sale prospects, but very good prospects) who can help you fill out your lineup for years to come. For the ones who don't pan out, you sign FAs in the following years. What's nite's point? It's equally wasteful to sit on the players you do have at 120 million dollars and at best, 3rd place prospects, as it is to sign Cespedes or Upton to large deals if they're not going to turn you into a playoff team. TL;DR - Commit to loading up your team with young talent, even if it means giving up the only 2 great players you have now(Abreu withstanding) or try to compete for the playoffs.

QUOTE (Brian @ Jan 5, 2016 -> 05:36 PM) Any invasion angle would include jobbing to Cena. Pass QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Jan 5, 2016 -> 05:47 PM) My thought is it will be jobbing to Reigns (part of a re- formed Shield to defend the wwe), but agreed, pass. That's what's really bringing me down on this, if it's main roster, Vince will bury them If they were smart, they would turn Cena into the leader in an invasion angle, similar to Hogan. Have him grow out a beard and dye it black and all. Bring back Thug Life and basic thuganomics.

He's improved every year, and he would be playing in a HR hitter ballpark.

Show was decent, but predictable. Thing is, and even JR tweeted this, the follow-up is critical. And WWE has been able to create moments like this, but then they have very poor follow-up and lose all momentum. What they should do is not even have Reigns talk, just flat out seek and destroy, Lesnar style.

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 13, 2015 -> 01:44 AM) John Paxson and Gar Forman are unfamiliar with the "trades" verb you speak of. There is "signing Kirk Hinrich" and "draft players with Iowa St ties" and that's it. I agree. They don't make trades unless it's to clear salary or get a pick. They are a very reactionary front office who lack creativity and overvalue their players until their contracts are about to run out. Then they end up selling low on the players. On a different note, I didn't know OJ Mayo is starting for Milwaukee at PG. I know he was thought to be a combo guard coming out of high school/college. He had a pretty good night.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Dec 11, 2015 -> 11:43 AM) To all the posters here, I just wanted to take a little time out of my day to thank all of you for making Soxtalk what it is. I know the past few seasons have been frustrating as fans of this franchise, but you look at the discussion and passion that every member of this site brings to the table, it reminds me of how special this place is and how special it will be when the Sox get back to the promised land again (hey...why not this year!!!). Anyway, for the 10 year+ members, thank you for being so loyal (and for those who haven't been by lately, come on by and say hello) and thank you to the 1 day old members as well as because without new members and new insights, this place wouldn't be the consistently awesome place that it has been for 13+ years (and really even predating those days...back when Soxtalk was just a forum on SoxNet). When I look back over those 13+ years, I think to where the site started and how exciting it was when the site got 100 visitors in a day, and than looking back over the past few days, realizing that the past 4 days site traffic was an new all time high for any 4 day stretch (and also had a couple of the individual days that were top 5-10 in site history). To think when this site started, it was a shell compared to a massive other White Sox site. New sites popped up, but to correct a quote from field of dreams...their have been two constants in life, one Ray is baseball, the other is Soxtalk, the biggest damn independently run White Sox site on the planet, and that power wouldn't exist if not for all of you. So thanks again for all the great posts and interaction (and all the fantastic dialogue we have had over the years and most recently) and I look forward to many more years of the same!!! PS: I also want to thank the mod and admin team here. As many people know, their have been many sites that have sputtered due to overzealous and powerhungry leadership and I think this crew is the best (with the exception of me and my overpowering ways around catch-alls). Thank you good man for having this site and encouraging discussion. I'm happy that I was here for last championship. I hope I'm here for the next one.

If we trade a rotation starter, I do want to see us sign someone like Johan as the 5th starter. I think he can comeback like Kazmir did.

QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Dec 8, 2015 -> 11:36 PM) Ha and you said I was on crack for my sale proposal...JFC lose two SPs and gain 3 OFs. What we do then to fill out the staff? What we do with Eaton Avi and Trayce? You don't lose Q, Fullmer or Sale. You still have your draft picks to draft more pitchers - the one thing you're good at as an organization. Flip any combo of Eaton, Avi, Trayce, or any of the new OFs to fill out your infield.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 8, 2015 -> 07:20 PM) Why are we trading for three OFs? I'm glad you asked. You then flip one or two if them for infield help. You got rid of Alexei, LaRoche and Danks' contracts, right? Maybe that gives us room to flip people to TB and get Evan Longoria.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Dec 8, 2015 -> 07:13 PM) Time to get nervous and excited. Dodgers trade: Yasiel Puig Julio Urias Joc Pederson Dodgers receive: Jose Fernandez Adam LaRoche John Danks Marlins trade Marcelo Ozuna Jose Fernandez Marlins receive: Julio Urias Carlos Rodon White Sox trade: Carlos Rodon Adam LaRoche John Danks White Sox Receive Yasiel Puig Marcelo Ozuna Joc Pederson Thoughts??

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Dec 8, 2015 -> 04:39 PM) If the Marlins accepted that then their fans would revolt... I hope the trade proposal is sarcastic It is. But a man could dream, no?

Calhoun plays right and plays it well. He'd move to left though.

QUOTE (coco1997 @ Dec 8, 2015 -> 04:05 PM) Straight up wouldn't be nearly enough to get it done. Anderson, Rodon, Erik Johnson, Sanchize and two lower level prospects. We then sign Johan. Bring Fullmer up early. Sale Fernandez Q Fulmer Santana I caught a chub

BTW what if it were the Marlins asking for Tim Anderson for Jose Fernandez. Sale Fernandez Quintana Me ChiSoxfn

QUOTE (southside hitman @ Dec 8, 2015 -> 03:52 PM) Would have to empty the system to get in the conversation. If the Marlins don't think Seager and Urias from the Dodgers is enough, Sox couldn't match that unless they included Rodon/Q. Actually, its the Dodgers who won't start any conversation with Seager. Dodgers offered Urias and Pederson, but Florida won't even hold the discussion without Seager. Listening to LA Sports Talk Radio, Dodger fans are delusional. They won't give up any of their prospects. Just this morning, Jeanie Zelasko was getting wet over Seager

Run roh.

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 8, 2015 -> 02:44 PM) Astros with Jose Fernandez would be scary. That's a sick 1/2. What if the Sox were the mystery team?

If this is your lone move - moving LaRoche to sign Upton, then it doesn't make sense. You need more than just Upton to help you compete in 2016. And I'm talking for a chance at the playoffs, not even actually making the playoffs. Unless Hahn is trying for two bats.

It's per Gordon Wittenmeyer.

That's a great get.

QUOTE (BigHurt3515 @ Dec 8, 2015 -> 12:24 AM) Anybody that can hit the ball with good average can knock in runs from the four spot IMO.. Imagine how many RBIs Ichiro would have had if he 4th or 5th his entire career? If you have guys who get on base in front of them they don't have to hit home runs just need a hit What's easier to obtain - a lineup 1-9 that can get on base, or a lineup which has 3 boppers that can drive in runs with maybe the 1-2 hitters as OBP guys?