ptatc

QUOTE (fathom @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:55 PM) Judging by last night, he's going fastball/slider and not throwing the change-up. I agree with the innings thing over the course of the year...it was more the next few weeks where it seems they're possibly risking it. Any possiblity that this is a stress fracture type thing waiting to happen, as that makes more sense than elbow ligaments based on how it's being treated. It's not consistent with stress fracture (stress reaction is the new in vogue term) symptoms. It really sounds muscular and they are trying to decrease his number of pitches when the muscles will be fatigued and thus less stress on the ligaments.

QUOTE (fathom @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:46 PM) The puzzling thing is how would pitching 3 times a week possibly throwing maybe 50 pitches during a week salvage his arm as opposed to a start with 100 pitches? Seems like a very fine line. If it is truly muscular it makes all the sense in the world. Throwing 20 pitches 3 times per week will not fatigue the muscle as much as 100 pitches at one time. Mechanically it fewer times throwing the slider with fatigued muscles.

QUOTE (Reddy @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:36 PM) DL stints are typical. Putting your BEST YOUNG STARTER in the bullpen out of the blue is atypical. This is definitely atypical with being proactive to soreness. But I like it. They are trying to protect a young promising pitcher. Most of the time they pitch him until he is in too much pain to pitch and then he goes on the DL. Part of the reason maybe that they don't really expect to compete this year and are protecting the future.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:18 PM) Cortisone, pitch, pitch, tear, tommy john, fixed. IMO. you can't use cortisone for this type of problem. Cortisone is only used in a joint capsule, bursa or a similar enclosed area. this problem is all outside the joint capsule.

QUOTE (flavum @ May 9, 2012 -> 12:55 PM) And Sale will get an MRI as well. So that's good. I hope it's clean, and he can go back to starting. MRI's really don't show as much as people think. They are good for inflammation and fluid but aren't really accurate by themselves. As I tell my students MRI means More Radiographic Income. They are a piece to the puzzle but usually aren't as accurate as the physical exam.

QUOTE (justBLAZE @ May 9, 2012 -> 11:35 AM) Cooper dismissed the notion that Sale’s mechanics aren’t suited for the rigors of starting. http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/wh...e-to-start.html This article. For the record I trust PTATC and the only beef I have with all this is the Sox keep I saying: "I don't know, we will see, who knows what happens" just seems like they dont have a plan. Mechanics are always a debate. I would say his are questionable just like I've always said I didn't like Strasburg or Prior's, although for different reasons. However, many people will disagree with me as there are many schools of philosophy when it comes to mechanics. Cooper really doesn't subscribe to a theory of mechanics. He mostly talks about the theory of pitching and how to get pitchers to throw strikes within their own mechanics. I don't think you will ever hear Cooper truly discuss mechanics or how to change them.

QUOTE (knightni @ May 9, 2012 -> 11:57 AM) <!--quoteo(post=2595027:date=May 9, 2012 -> 08:46 AM:name=Balta1701)-->QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 9, 2012 -> 08:46 AM) <!--quotec-->Wait, he has a knee problem? There's an ACL on your elbow. There isn't an ACL in the elbow. There is an UCL, the ulnar collateral ligament on the inside of the elbow and an RCL or radial collateral ligament on the outside of the elbow. Although the old terminology for each is MCL and LCL for medial and lateral collateral ligaments which is similar to the knee terminology. There are no cruciate ligaments in the elbow.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ May 9, 2012 -> 10:58 AM) No one has said its impossible to do that - obviously it happens. Dempster did it too, if I recall correctly. Its just hard to do and expect success with it, especially for a young player who, in my view, looks like a stick figure and lacks a lot of muscle. What it did was, increase the risk (a lot) of this happening, Heck, its not like I was the only one saying this would likely happen during the year, lots of others did as well. It just happened earlier than many would have guessed. The variable here are his mechanics. Dempster and Lowe had fairly good mechanics and no one doubted they could start. I think the Sox have doubts he can do this even with the "normal" conditioning and they are being ultra-conservative with the elbow tenderness.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 9, 2012 -> 07:46 AM) Wait, he has a knee problem? I'm sure he meant UCL for ulnar collateral ligament. For what it's worth, here is my take on what's happening based on all of the information out there and from people I know in MLB. Sale's elbow has been sore. It's seems mostly muscular not ligamentous (UCL). The Sox staff (Cooper, Schneider, KW) are all worried about his mechanics and workload. There is heavy skepticism that he can last a full year starting with his mechanics. So do you want a part time starter or a full time reliever? It looks like they are going to decrease his workload by having him start for awhile then be in the bullpen for awhile then go back to starting. If you are worried about structural damage such as the UCL, this would be a horrible idea as the constant work out of the bullpen would mostly cause more damage. However from a muscle development aspect it's not a bad idea. The other option is to put him in the minors and slowly build up his arm with skipping start as I believe it was Balta advocated. However I think the Sox value his arm too much at the MLB level. This whole process of a part time starter is out of the box thinking which is why it creating such an controversy. However, from a purely physical point of view, it's different, but makes sense.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 7, 2012 -> 11:08 AM) And the Twins had that amazing 2006 stretch run, the Tigers the 2007 World Series, to show for Liriano and Zumaya...there's that. What do we have, exactly? The Twins also made the playoffs two more times with Liriano as one of their STARTERS and not relievers. Are you so sure GM Ryan would have given up the 2006 season and done what exactly with Liriano? Put him into the bullpen all season long? Would the Twins have made the playoffs in 2009 and 2010 without Liriano in their rotation? Zumaya was a reliever in your situation. You cannot take a single scenario or even a few cases and say you have enough data to confidently say "this is how we should treat this injury" I'm not sure how you can extrapolate a teams performance from an individual's elbow problems. If you want to risk the health and career of one of your players, that's your choice. Between Cooper and Schneider, the Sox have a pretty good track record of keeping pitchers healthy. If they do not feel Sale can do it, I would side with them. From what I've seen, I would agree. You also don't know the situation behind the other pitcher's problems. Were they having problems maintaining their pitches between games. Was there pain and altered mechanics on the off days? Could they even long toss on their off days? Generalizing injuries is not a very effective way to treat another pitcher.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 7, 2012 -> 10:53 AM) What if it provides Francisco Liriano results or Joey Zumaya? If it did, you would be complaining, as Frank Thomas says, no doubt about it. If it was so cut and dried that everyone would return the same or stronger and would never have another elbow issue again, teams would make pitchers have the surgery the day they were signed. Especially if they do not change the mechanical flaws that lead to the problem in the first place.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 7, 2012 -> 10:32 AM) Danny Wright 1-7, 6.15 ERA Josh Stewart 1-2, 5.96 ERA Mike Porzio, 1-1, 6.43 ERA Neal Cotts, 1-1, 8.10 ERA 4-11 So, you're going to tell me that Dylan Axelrod, Stults, Simon Castro, Pedro Hernandez, Santiago and Nestor Molina are going to be a significant improvement there?? Your point is valid. However, what you don't seems to want to believe is that the Sox do not think Sale can handle the stress of starting. If Sale wasn't having problems they would leave him in the rotation. It's not a case of where he best fits. It's a case of do you want him on the team in the bullpen or in the operating room.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ May 7, 2012 -> 08:16 AM) I agree. Relievers are a dime a dozen. However, not every player is built to be a starter. Ask the Braves of the 90's about relievers. They won only 1 world series because they couldn't finish games after the starters were out.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 6, 2012 -> 07:36 PM) The Tigers announcers were: 1) Thanking their lucky stars that Sale wasn't facing them 2) Wondering how when a closer would need to warm up quickly 3-4-5 times per week...and going maximum velocity/full effort for 10-15-20-25 pitches each appearance, how in any way, shape or form that would reduce the stress on the elbow. There's the bad mechanics stress (human anatomy/physiology versus physics), and there is the slider torque issue to deal with as well. Are they going to eliminate that pitch from his repertoire? How much would his effectiveness be eliminated in that situation as a result? Where is PTAC to make a insightful comment on this entire situation? Haven't seen him around here recently, this is one of the more fascinating "injury" debates probably in recent White Sox history, since an injury hasn't even happened. I'm right in the middle of coaching my son's lacrosse season so I've been busy. There are primarily 2 ways to incur this type of elbow injury. This first is just overuse. The second is mechanical. With Sale it's hard to tell which one it is because he has not been a starter at this level or with this intensity. The Detroit announcers logic is somewhat flawed as when the pitcher is warming up he isn't throwing hard for all of those and he isn't throwing the variety of pitches in great numbers. Sale's mechanics with that lower arm slot will tend to put alot of stress on the elbow. My guess is that the Sox feel he will throw fewer sliders out of the bullpen. He'll still throw them but he can throw harder in the shorter appearance and see each batter fewer times. Every time a pitcher throws a pitch there is enough force on the elbow to tear the ulnar collateral ligament. The only thing holding it together is the muscle on the inside of the elbow. We don't know how Sale has responded after each of his starts on his off days. The Sox must feel that they need to limit the number of pitches he throws because of his mechanics. Cooper and Schneider know what they're doing and wouldn't move him if there wasn't trouble going on in between starts.

QUOTE (danman31 @ May 3, 2012 -> 01:37 PM) I have a hard time believing an ankle injury significantly took away speed. Short-term, or maybe even a couple years after, but long-term that just doesn't make sense to me. His injury wasn't an ankle sprain or a "routine" injury. He ruptured his posterior tibialis tendon off the bone. This muscle basically controls the motion of your arch during walking or running. I don't know if he lost any speed. However, it is very feasible that he could, temporarily or permanently.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 30, 2012 -> 02:33 PM) Wow. I am shocked. Suspension I could believe. Firing? Wow. I think this is a case of waiting for an excuse to get him.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Apr 22, 2012 -> 10:54 PM) I am in a posting mood today so that's the only reason I post in this thread. Ozzie and Cowley are yesterdays news . I am in favor of anything Cowley/Ozzie related to be closed. +184301275487549325

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Apr 22, 2012 -> 10:47 PM) If you don't like the guy or respect him ( and by respect him I mean his abilities) then why go out of your way to praise him such as Humber after the perfect game or Sale after a recent victory? So maybe trust is a better word to describe how they feel about him. I think they do respect his baseball abilities, as do I. But the original comment was that "they like him and respect him." This is not the case. I think trusting his abilities is accurate as well.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Apr 22, 2012 -> 10:40 PM) Then all the pitchers who constantly praise him are liars for the camera ? THey praise his catching ability. He is a good player. He calls an excellent game. But you don't see personal compliments other than the obligatory "he's one of our team mates" type comments.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Apr 22, 2012 -> 09:28 PM) uh... what? first of all biggest in height and weight would be adam dunn. secondly... i think the pitchers on this team like him a lot The comment was one of the biggest if you want that literal. I believe he qualifies as one of the biggest. Most of the pitchers do not like him. I'm not sure about the rookies but I know the vets don't like him.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Apr 22, 2012 -> 10:26 PM) Good post. Sox don't win it w/out AJ in 2005. Doesn't mean he is liked or respected. Barry Bonds was one of the greatest players of all time. He was still an arrogant a**, who no one liked or respected. People just dealt with him because he helped them win. AJ is in the same category. Players deal with him.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Apr 22, 2012 -> 10:24 PM) In the world of professional sports being liked is way behind being respected and I guarantee AJ is well respected. No he's not.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Apr 22, 2012 -> 06:37 PM) he single-handedly WON you an ALCS, he stomped aaron boone, he gave joe borchard $100 for homering off Brett Tomko, I could go on and on and on he's one of the biggest leaders on this club. Biggest only in height and weight. The guy is a complete a** and very few people like him. No one looks to him for leadership. That being said I always root for the Sox thus him in a secondary way I root for him.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Apr 21, 2012 -> 01:46 PM) I don't want anybody to be the closer. I want Santiago pitching in the highest-leverage situation vs LH batters and Crain pitching in the highest-leverage situation vs RH batters and I want Thornton pitching in the second highest-leverage situation in both cases. That would never work. Players need to know their roles to into their routine. It may work for a short time but would not work over a long period of time.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 19, 2012 -> 02:14 PM) Viciedo really seems like he's lost some of his aggressiveness at the plate. Has let a lot of pitches go by this year in the early going. Crap. Struck out the side. At least there are some positives to build on with Dunn and Rios. Now we have to worry about Dayan, unfortunately. In this day and age of sabermetrics walks are really emphasized. He is probably trying to walk more and I think it takes away from his game.