Dick Allen

QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 12:50 PM) The Sox either traded or let some really good players walk between 1995 and 1998. The organization suffered in the short-term, but were better off in the long-term (beginning in 2000). If the Sox are mired in mediocrity next July, I could see them trading a few key players for young, ML-ready talent and doing a proper rebuild around their better young players. Given this organization's past, I don't see them continuing on the current path indefinitely. If JR decides to sell the team in the foreseeable future, he'll definitely dump the higher-salaried players to maximize the organization's value. For some reason I was looking at the stats for the 1999 White Sox a couple of weeks ago. I think they won 76 games in a rebuilding year. The fascinating thing about them was they had a solid offensive team. A different era, but Carlos Lee was a rookie and he was 8th on the team with a .775 OPS. Greg Norton isn't remembered fondly, but he had an OPS over .780. They had 6 regulars over .800.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 11:21 AM) I read today where Robin said Putnam has a sore elbow again. I don't know what his status is or will be moving forward. Mark He has had shoulder issues each of the past 2 seasons as well. He can be really effective, but he isn't a guy you can count on answering the bell enough to hold down a late inning spot.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 06:36 AM) Thornton was done the moment Jim Thome touched him up in the 2nd half of 2010...even though he lived on until this day in the big leagues. Forgot Jones, 3 rookies. Considering where he was drafted and his lack of success starting, that has to qualify as another success overall. Crain is an example that supports the Don Cooper Theory of Excellence. (Brett Myers and Liriano do not). And the fact that Jake Peavy could be rehabilitated through a once in a lifetime surgery and come out the other side AND get back Avi/Montas or Iglesias and not have to subsidize any of his salary was a minor Don miracle. (Except for when he faced the Tigers that year). Myers and Ohman? More indictments of KW/Hahn. HAIL HAHN! Now Peavy is a Cooper success story? A month ago you wrote how overrated he was and mentioned erroneously he never beat Detroit. Get your stories straight. Besides if it's Robin's fault all these guys suck, it must be to his credit Peavy was good after the surgery since he managed him then. Forget the surgeon. He had nothing to do with it.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 10:11 AM) Apparently having the fifth worst record in baseball during his tenure and losing records against the Twins, Indians, Royals and Tigers isn't good enough...is it really a "shocker" to both Hahn and KW that generally you should have a .500 record or above (within the division) in order to win the AL Central??? Collapses in September, 2012, the entire 2013 season, early 2015 and May, 2016 clearly aren't evidence enough. He's likely to go on and become a HoF manager, well, because other HoF managers at some point early in their careers also managed teams "lacking in talent." I put that in quotes because I'm not sure it's altogether fair to assert all these Sox teams have been talentless. Yet in another thread you claim Cooper is absolved from any blame due to lack of talent. Using the criteria that seems to be in place by many on this board, there is not a manager alive who would have taken the job when Robin did, who should still be employed.

QUOTE (Soxfest @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 09:56 AM) Not 1 logical reason RV has a job. If the Sox were run like a real organization and not a country club. Yet no one has answered the question.

QUOTE (Tex @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 09:14 AM) And how are you going to measure more wins? Based on this (temporary) slump that the team would have played out of anyways (no way to predict one way or another)? Based on year to date? Based on the hot start? There just isn't any objective evidence after the fact. I would measure it in contention down to the last days of the season. It worked when the Marlins fired Torborg and replaced him with Trader Jack, but they did leave out, the Marlins also called up Miguel Cabrera and Dontrell Willis at the same time. Would they have won if Torborg wasn't replaced? We will never know, but they more than likely would have improved.

I should have made the thread you're Rick Hahn, you want to fire Robin. You have to make your case to JR. JR is going to want some logic that says a guy like Rick Renteria will produce more wins. The Ron Washington line, that's how baseball go, won't work. Would you be willing to put your neck and job on the line that a guy like Renteria would translate into more wins? What's your ammo?

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 08:49 AM) So you are on the side of- it is not the manager, its is the General Manager/ Team President's fault for putting together a roster that simply cannot get it done? After a major disappointing 2015 season, the only guy to get fired was Mark Parent. Who will it be this year after they finish 78-84? I'm guessing Bobby Thigpen and Todd Steverson. I cannot stand the lack of accountability this organization demonstrates annually. This team is indeed ran luck a country club. A bunch of friends hanging out (JR, KW, Hahn and Robin) having fun, win or lose it does not matter because they are still making money. What I am asking is if they hired your dream manager for the 2012 season and the rosters were exactly the same, how much more winning does this team do? For Hahn and KW or both to fire Robin now, they would be putting their necks on the line because if the team didn't suddenly improve, the arrow points at them. Would anyone blame them for not doing that? Robin is the scapegoat for this season if they fail. If they fire him and still fail, it goes up the ladder.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 08:43 AM) You're forgetting Cox, Torre, Leyland, etc. Baseball is a business. It used to be results-oriented. Let's not act like the 2011/12 and 2015 and 2016 teams were completely lacking in talent or expectations. It's easy to say that after the fact, with hindsight. We have had a losing record against all four AL Central teams since 2009. I can understand that with the Tigers and Detroit, but not with the Indians and a rebuilding Twins' organization as well. What I can't understand is the disparity in records head-to-head, and the fact we can almost never win key ALCD games in August and September (which goes back to the Guillen years, too). They've changed almost all of the players other than Sale and Quintana from 4 years ago and are still making the same sorts of mistakes and suffering from the same issues that plagued the team every month except for April, 2016. Right now, that one month seems more like an anomaly than a sea-change or progression in Ventura's managerial ability. We've also had the fifth worse record in the major leagues during his tenure, and almost all of the teams in the bottom 10-12 have changed managers/GM's at least once if not twice during that time. What is it that the White Sox see in Robin Ventura that nobody else does? In the end, it doesn't matter how much the organization believes in him if it's not backed up with results...with another 3rd or 4th place finish comes even less revenue to work with next season, and the downward cycle continues until there is no choice left but to trade Eaton/Sale/Q/Robertson and possibly Rodon. I'm pretty sure very few White Sox fans at that point would continue to support the manager and GM that put them in that position in the first place. JR can do what he likes, it's his team after all, but cutting off your nose to spite your face probably isn't the hallmark of most good businessmen. How many more wins does another manager get? J Joe Torre NY Mets 49-68 66-96 63-99 67-95 41-62 who would ever hire him after that? No other team would ever want him. Yet the next season he was hired by Atlanta. Lasted 3 years, fired, hired right away by 2St. Louis. Lasted 3 or 4 years, fired. Hired the very next season by the Yankees. NY press blasted the move. This guy is the baseball idiot of idiots. The rest is history. This works with coaches as well. Leo Mazzone was the famed can't be topped pitching coach of the Atlanta Braves. He was a genius when he had Glavine, Smoltz, Maddux..he took the money and went to Baltimore with crappy pitchers, wound up out of work. Remember the Greg Walker, lift and pull crap on here? First off, he never preached lift and pull, but posters here were so enthralled with Rudy Jaramillo (who actually was a lift and pull guy) they wanted the Sox to replace Walker with whoever Jaramillo's assistant was. Rudy goes to the Cubs when they have crappy hitters, and all of a sudden he goes from guru to guy who doesn't belong in a major league dugout.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 08:28 AM) Robin Ventura = Tony La Russa #HotTakesbyDickAllen Never said that. I do think he is similar to Joe Torre. Check out Torre's managerial record before he had top of the line rosters.

Everyday I read when a player screws up, Robin is a bumbling fool...and all the rest. My question is, if the rosters were the same since he became the manager, how many more playoff appearances and in legitimate contention seasons would the White Sox have had if they hired someone else? I read constantly how short of talent this current team is, and they do seem on paper to have more talent than most of the others under his leadership. How many more wins and trophies does say Ricky Renteria running things translate into? I like Robin, but if there really was a compelling case other than total desperation which never works anyway to remove him , I would be all for it. It just seems some like to play both sides of the fence. The players suck, the front office and coaching staff are totally incompetent, yet, if you read gamethreads, this team should win at least 120 games if managed correctly. Wouldn't that make the talent gathering people outstanding? Robin is a fool if he uses Scott Carroll with a 5 run lead in the 8th, then he is a fool for using his closer with a 6 run lead in the 9th because now you should never use your closer in a non closing situation. Good thing the Sox never tried to hire Maddon. He uses Rondon is non save appearances quite often. There are so many things like this. This player should never bat second, a week later, why isn't he batting second? On and on and on. Renteria, Maddon, Gardenhire, Alomar, take your pick. How many more wins and playoff appearances does it translate into? Hindsight is a beautiful thing. When Tony LaRussa was fired, there weren't thousands of White Sox fans crying in their beer. In fact, most were probably toasting Hawk for doing it. Now Hawk is one of the biggest fools who ever lived, but LaRussa was fired in 1986, replaced by Fregosi who actually won a higher percentage of games that year. The total rebuild of 1987-1989 with really no chance to compete would have meant, had LaRussa stayed he would have had at least 4 years and 5 out of 6 after winning the division of horrible teams. Considering how people use Robin's W-L record against him, how would Tony have survived that? Obviously this has been an awful stretch of baseball. But they still are .500, maybe for a few more hours, maybe for the rest of the season. It will get better.They aren't as good as 23-10, they aren't as bad as 6-19. It was interesting they showed about 5 or 6 teams that went through a similar bad stretch during a season and still won a WS. I wouldn't predict that, but, if Hahn gets another bat, some of this will turn around.

QUOTE (skooch @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 11:23 PM) Jay Bruce = 13 HR, 40 RBI, 0.922 OPS, 142 OPS+ as a left-handed bat with 1.5 yrs of control near the trade deadline. I think it might cost quite a bit more. I think he would have been pretty cheap earlier. Now, not only are you paying for his better numbers, you have to figure some regression is coming. I wouldn't mind the Sox picking him up, but this has to be mostly a financial transaction from the Sox point.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 03:31 AM) Please name ONE team that would commit to paying Zach Duke $8 million for the next 1 2/3rd's years. Your what hurts? I think you're seriously overestimating the esteem with which the rest of MLB holds our relievers. Jennings isn't anything special. There are left-handed relievers like him all over baseball, could be the next one is Purke for all we know. Despite Duke being absolutely terrible this past month, he hasn't been pushed ahead of him into 7th and 8th inning high leverage situations. I also distinctly recall on a number of occasions reading on this board that reliever XYZ could/should be flipped for XYZ prospect, and how often has that actually happened to our benefit the last 3-4 years? NOT OFTEN. Sounds too Cubs-like. What has Don Cooper actually done that's so bad? If you want to blame him for Rodon "regressing," that's probably the closest to a direct hit you're going to get on him...because it's pretty obvious he was extracting the maximum he was ever going to get out of the likes of Latos, Gonzalez and Albers. Now they're simply returning to their norms/means. In fact, name all those teams that are highly desirous of Duke and I will start sending out the e-mails to their Assistant GM's right this moment, because we're going to need that $8 million to pay for other needed spare parts to fix this team and keep it from completely sinking out of contention over the month of June. Finally, look at that 2012 roster. How many of those rookie pitchers other than Santiago and Q are still even playing professional baseball? Don Cooper is a miracle worker, I tell you. Surely, he would also be willing to tell you. So Robin Ventura is supposed to consistently win games with these players, but it is unreasonable to think Don Cooper can do much with them because they all suck. Got it.

How does Cooper keep his job? The pitching has been atrocious,

QUOTE (ronkark @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 08:25 PM) classic sox. potential huge inning for us and we get 2, 1 on a gift walk, no big hit. then the latos walk parade continues and it's tied and their guy can settle down. and nice job holding runner mat and nice catch dioner. and i ask agani, why shields tomorrow and not today? get the wins when you can. scherzer tomorrow. even is james is great we may lose. just dumb, Meanwhile Sox 5 Was 2

The Sox have won a higher percentage of Latos' starts than any other starter.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 06:47 PM) Where did you hear this? Channel 2 news sports segment. Straight out of Frazier's mouth.

QUOTE (soxfan49 @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 06:30 PM) Not really sure if this is the spot to post this but I have some family up near Minneapolis and I may go up there July 28-31. It turns out the Sox are in town that weekend. Any idea where the Sox stay when up there? I see they have a nice JW Marriott there. I've always wanted to splurge and maybe catch a few drinks with players in a visiting city after a game http://www.wminneapolishotel.com

Hopefully it's something like Adderal and he drops to 26.

After Shields showed up, Hahn told Frazier, "there is more to come".

QUOTE (raBBit @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 06:15 PM) I have heard multiple who work with Kaplan talk about him and he's apparently just a genuine awesome person with sources out the ears. He's a homer to special level. I have heard the same thing. But there was no place for that question in the welcome to the White Sox interview.

QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 05:34 PM) I would be beyond stunned if he opted out of this deal. If he opts out, he will have been awesome.

Kaplan asking Shields if he had any regrets picking SD over the Cubs while he is interviewing him as the newest White Sox. For.The.Love.Of..God.

Ozzie is in the house. They just showed him talking to KW.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 05:07 PM) Could this be another reason why they traded for Shields so soon? Pain coming from the neck to the arm wouldn't concern me so much, could be a sublexation or a pinched nerve, but it kind of alarms me they would take an MRI .