Dick Allen

The Sox must have had to add Shields to the roster today or else they could have kept one of the bats just in case for tonight's game.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 02:51 PM) not only that but players are coming to the MLB with less games in the MILB in many cases. The learning in the MILB hasn't occurred. Buddy Bell was mentioning the Latin players who are signed after these showcases, and how they really don't play games. They just train to get signed. After they are signed, many don't know which base to throw or how to run the bases, situational hitting.. any of the nuances of the game most take for granted, because their actual game experience is so limited..

QUOTE (EvilJester99 @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 02:31 PM) Seems most are happier b****ing about those b****ing... Or even happier b****ing about the people who are b****ing about the b****ing. The fact is, you can tell if the Sox are winning or losing just by who is in a gamethread.

QUOTE (Coach @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 07:55 AM) I know a lot of people may not like what I am posting but Theo Epstein came into the Cubs organization and told everyone he had a 5 year plan. He redeveloped their minor league system much like the Cardinals. How is that working out so far? I have been saying for years the WS should do the same. Why can't the WS develop good players? Maybe it's the minor league coaches. Maybe start there and replace them with better ones. It seems the front office is hell bent on obtaining aging veterans (Dunn, LaRoche, Griffey Jr., Rollins, etc.) to help the cause. How has that worked so far? How many players on the Cubs were really developed by the team? Was Bryant developed? He spend a lot of money and made some astute trades. I believe the only guy Theo actually drafted that is on the Cubs active roster is Bryant. Could you imagine the crap KW, JR, and RH would take if they tanked for 5 years and had 1 draft pick on the roster?

If momentum is so real, how come the Sox had none after they came back and beat the Mets after trailing 4-0, and won the next day in extra innings? E

QUOTE (whitesoxfan99 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 04:13 PM) Based on what? Most evaluators had Appel ranked higher than Bryant going into that draft. Just because it didn't turn out that way doesn't mean that isn't how it was seen at the time. You are evaluating this entirely based on hindsight. I read a couple things where the Astros wanted under slot for later and Bryant was represented by Boras so was not going to be considered, Boras does represent Appel but he had no leverage and signed for under slot. About $1 million IIRC. Edit, $1.45 million under slot. Just a coincidence? I don't think so, and I think it is the same reason they took Aiken instead of Rodon. 62 games 31 homers for Bryant his junior year with the dead aluminum bat. Considering their offense is based almost solely on power, he was right up their alley.

2005 the Imdians payroll was over $30 million less than the White Sox and they had a higher team WAR. Do they get a trophy or something?

The last time a team led the league in cumulative WAR and played in the WS was 2010.results are more important than surplus WAR.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 06:51 PM) Another interesting fact - this is only true if you go to fangraphs, which does have some issue with how it handles strikeouts and perhaps defense at the pitchers' spot. If you go to B-R, Vazquez put up 43.3, Buehrle put up 59, which is right on the edge of HOF-worthy. Then why when people were talking about how disappointing Shark was last year, did you use his fangraphs WAR to point out he pitched as expected and not the 0.2 on BR?

Fun fact for using WAR and money. Javy Vazquez made about $37 million less in his career than Mark Buehrle and had a higher career war.

QUOTE (harkness @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 06:17 PM) This is where I feel Robin doesn't have the ability. His strategic decisions... meh.. some are bad but I don't think it means all that much. What I see are players that in key situations... clench up. I'd like to think that the ability to get players to relax and perform is where they make their impact. Here are my ideas! Play little side games... keep track of the team "Leaders" at getting the runner in from 3rd. Give fun little awards like a case of your favorite beer... Maybe if you win that week you get to pick a players intro music for a game on the homestand. Get to play a nice golf course. Someone has to bring you some Dairy Queen if you win... Do they do s*** like that? I don't know but these guys just look so tense all the time. I don't know if that is really on him either. He is obviously kind of a laid back guy. Other posters want him screaming and publicly humiliating players when they fail. That would make things worse. They were getting the big hits earlier, and got some big hits in KC onky to blow the leads. Ever since then, offense has been a problem. Melky being gone didn't help, but it isn't like that cost them 3 runs a game. I think they will get rolling again, but it is no secret they need another hitter preferably left handed, but anyone that can provide consistent offense would really help. It seems almost every player goes through so many stretches where they have no business grabbing a bat. It is almost as fascinating as frustrating. It seems the team is full of really streaky guys.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan99 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 02:27 PM) The Astros didn't take Appel over Bryant because of money. That ended up being an awful pick but lots of people had Appel as the #1 player in that class and most people actually thought Appel and Jon Gray would go 1-2 before Bryant. Appel was a senior with no leverage and signed for underslot, plus he was highly ranked. I think money had a lot to do with it. Take the best player. Don't worry about the other stuff. It's hard enough projecting in baseball anyways, although it is getting better.

QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 02:02 PM) I feel bad for Gonzalez. His last few starts were pretty solid. His last one he was Houdini with the leadoff walks, but he has been decent. Certainly decent enough to be a #5 starter. But he's still in the show, and is there if Latos can't do the job.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 01:18 PM) It would be interesting to see if the could work something out well below slot at 10 for Lux and then grab Rutherford later in the first round. There were reports that some teams with larger pools were trying to get him to slip into the comp round (like Cameron last year) and the Sox could be one of the teams trying to make that happen. I love the idea of being able to get Perez or Ray at 10. I think at this point the Sox are going to have some pretty good options on the table at 10, it is going to be about getting creative so that you can maximize that value you will get out of your next two picks. I just hope they take the guy who will turn into the best player at 10. The Astros cost themselves Rodon and Bryant playing the underslot/overslot game.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 01:45 PM) Agreed. A solid innings eating pitcher is not an easy thing to find. Getting a guy who will pull down 200 to 230 innings per year makes a big difference. Let me put it this way. If you get 210 innings out of Shields (30 starts x 7 IP average) versus 165 innings out of a guy like Gonzalez (30 x 5.5 IP average) that is a difference of 45 IP being pitched by your bullpen. Dan Jennings pitched 56 innings last season. Adding a guy like Shields is literally saving almost an entire season's worth of IP for a reliever in your bullpen. Plus it moves Gonzalez to the bullpen which, depending on how Latos holds up, could save you from having to acquire maybe even 2 bullpen pieces. The more that one thinks about this, the more it makes sense, assuming Shields can deliver the goods at the level the White Sox expect.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 01:08 PM) I have no special insight into the Padres but "owner who put a lot of money into a player and then loses his temper at that player after an embarrassing game and 1.5 frustrating seasons after he spent a lot of money and was promised results and then the team has to dump the player as fast as possible" doesn't seem like an impossible sequence to me. The owner jumping on him before the trade was announced but while the trade was done seems like impressive enough 3-dimensional chess playing that my instinct is that an owner-outburst seems more likely to me. I doubt it. Everything about the trade was already reported by that barstool fellow except for the money. Up until then, Shields wasn't doing too badly. Owners lose their temper all the time. If anyone is ever at a White Sox game in the club level, you can see JR's suite. Look in there when something bad happens. He's not lighting cigars with $100 bills. He gets pretty agitated. But unless your name is George Steinbrenner, owners calling out players by name in public is very rare. I really doubt he gets singled out if there was much of a chance Shields were still going to be taking the mound for them.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 01:05 PM) I think if the White Sox hesitate, the Padres take the 2nd best offer. I wouldn't disagree. We will never know, but that outing certainly didn't help the Padres side of things. One of the national guys said a couple teams backed off after that. It would seem to me they weren't too serious then to begin with. Everyone has a bad game, and he actually was a bad call from saving himself 8 runs I believe.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 01:00 PM) Before coming to the White Sox, Hahn worked as an agent. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-10...gency-rick-hahn Didn't Preller get blasted for ruining the Padres system last year? GMs come from all areas. The fact is, most of these players are not personally scouted by the GM, so I don't think Hahn's background works against him. Plus he has been trained by White Sox scouts. I do think he was one of the driving forces, if not the main one in signing Jose Quintana. There isn't a scout alive that hasn't recommended more busts than not in their scouting careers.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 12:54 PM) You probably wouldn't have gotten Shields then. After the Padres owner melted down on him publicly last week, a deal was going to happen ASAP. That was definitely an issue. The rumored trade did come before the shaming, so that was probably done knowing he was gone. The only question would have been was there enough offered from other teams for him to move, or did the Padres owner know he was going to be a White Sox so he ripped him? I do agree, if they weren't trading him, that doesn't get said.

The problem with acquiring a guy like Shields is if he does what he was acquired to do, be a 4th starter, it will be a disappointment to the majority of fans who expect him to be an ace. Personally, I stated before, I think Gonzalez/Latos were a little below Shields but not much. I would have waited, but that said, if Gonzalez helps out in the bullpen, and Shields does give you the extra inning over the guy he replaces, and puts up #4 starter numbers, the trade does make sense as long as, and Hahn verified this with Levine, they still have the resources for some offense, and maybe another arm in the bullpen. Shields now vs. he 2012 velocity, if it were the same, the Padres wouldn't be paying him more than the White Sox the next 2 1/2 years. He is not an ace, but the White Sox don't expect one. It could be a different tune with the majority of the fanbase.

QUOTE (LVSoxFan @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 10:16 AM) Well one question I have to ask is: how many World Series champions had sh*tty managers? That's one way to look at it. A lot of them were considered stupid in previous or future seasons. Probably most if not all of them. Ned Yost won last year. He's been a total idiot. Bochy has been an idiot. Torre was an idiot. Ozzie is a fool. Farrell was a genius then stupid. LaRussa was an idiot. Matheny is considered an idiot by many. Just about any guy who has ever managed can't do it as well as the people in the stands.

QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 11:19 AM) That's basically where I stand. And that firing a manager mid-season is a desperation move that conveys the message that the organization is out of answers. Yes. I wouldn't cry if they fired Robin at noon today. But those calling for his head, if they don't do something about the offense, will be calling the next guy a goof as well. Robin Ventura knows more about the White Sox personnel and about baseball than any of us on this board. Some people don't believe it, but it's true.

QUOTE (flavum @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 09:29 AM) Just my 2 cents about hiring an MLB manager: --Hiring a guy with no coaching or minor league managerial experience is dangerous for the game. We're losing out on guys that put in the time and develop baseball instincts. If a guy has major league managerial aspirations and didn't play in the big leagues for years, he is at a huge disadvantage in becoming a manager. There are exceptions, but we're seeing a lot of Celebrity Managers these days, it's not good for the game as a whole. --You should hire a guy that fits in with a philosophy that fits in with the type of team you're fielding. --Once you hire a manager that fits in with what you're fielding, a three year contract is pretty standard. If that manager doesn't stand out after three years, you move on to the next one. I'll admit, a lot of managers are interchangeable. You can give them the information, they can play by the book, and do nice interviews before the game and after the game...and they may actually win because the talent is superior. But if the manager doesn't stand out and doesn't win when you're trying to win, that manager should be replaced. I really don't know how much different philosophy baseball managers have. It isn't like football and basketball and hockey. Baseball is far more standard, which is why even Hawk says many viewers could run a game. As long as they aren't miserable schmucks, it's pretty much about talent. There isn't a manager alive who people would agree with every move. For instance, Joe Maddon, who seems to be the greatest of all time now, does not like to shift at all.

Perception and reality play a role as well. Ozzie was supposedly a baseball savant when his attention mongoring took the attention away from the players, thus supposedly lessening the pressure on them. But when the exact same thing went on during seasons the team didn't win, he was just an attention whore.

QUOTE (Tex @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 09:16 AM) I don't believe anyone here believes that the manager doesn't matter. I believe it is more the manager doesn't mean that much and they are all about the same. The differences between managers might not be worth all the angst and bitterness. Exactly. Plus a huge part of managing is something we never ever see. It is what goes on when the game isn't happening.