witesoxfan

QUOTE (VAfan @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 01:49 PM) I guess it's hard to argue with you and WiteSoxFan if you are so set on arguing absurdities. What's absurd is pulling a starting pitcher in the 4th inning when he's given up 3 runs in the 9th game of the season.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 01:29 PM) I think the same. I mean when Sale came out, he was known for his electric fastball and slider. Just had to develop that 3rd pitch, the change up. Add that to Rodon's arsenal and he can be deadly. Actually, I seem to recall that Sale was mostly a fastball/change guy and that the slider was a work in progress. It obviously worked well.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 12:25 PM) I don't think the Sox are going to trade Viciedo. What will they get for him? You might as well wait and see if he can turn it around. I agree. He's not unavailable, but they'll be asking for more than teams will give.

QUOTE (Leonard Zelig @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 12:13 PM) Why do you think someone would trade for Dunn but not claim him? Beckham should be owed less than 1.5 after trade deadline. Because I believe the Sox would pick up some money in a trade. Not a lot, but enough to make it worthwhile. Somewhere in the $1-3 million range.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 11:59 AM) Neither Viciedo nor Beckham will make it through waivers. I doubt Dunn would. Danks probably would. Don't see why the Sox would let Danks go for free,though; they're not in bad budget shape at all. I think you're crazy if you think Beckham would get claimed. Frankly, Dunn too. Beckham is still owed a couple million and he's been terrible this year. Dunn is still owed like $5 million, does nothing defensively, and can't hit lefties. Viciedo I'm in agreement on.

QUOTE (VAfan @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 11:56 AM) Except that he did go to the bullpen one batter later, AFTER he let the "young starting pitcher" blow the game. Yes, at that point, the score was then 6-3, Axelrod was at 103 pitches, and another lefty in LaRoche was up with a runner in scoring position.

QUOTE (VAfan @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 11:45 AM) Really? Ozzie Guillen managed the White Sox to their only World Series win in yours or my lifetime. For that alone, he has earned my eternal respect, even if some of the things he did as a manager drove me crazy. I am forever grateful too. It doesn't change the fact that he was not a very good manager.

QUOTE (VAfan @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 11:40 AM) Axelrod was DONE. Almost 100 pitches in the bottom of the 4th. This was NOT an issue about "testing" his young pitcher. And it certainly was not a "toss up" decision. It was a completely BONEHEADED move that is made to look more stupid by his comments after the game. I don't care if you continue to have faith in Robin Ventura as a tactical game manager. Robin lost me that game, and nothing he's done since has changed my mind. This was almost certainly an issue of testing and putting faith into a young starting pitcher, trying to help him gain confidence. It was the 9th game of the season. You're crazy to think that he's going to start going to the bullpen when the pitcher has given up 3 runs and the game is tied in the 4th inning, even if he did have a very high pitch count.

QUOTE (VAfan @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 11:36 AM) Here's a good question -- How many here think Robin Ventura is an improvement over Ozzie Guillen as a manager? I would say he was an improvement over Ozzie's last year managing the Sox, when Ozzie was trying to get fired so he could manage the Marlins. Otherwise, despite Ozzie's faults, I would take him over Ventura hands down. Guillen did some things that drove me crazy, but he did a very good job managing pitchers. And he also put the Sox on the map, getting them to believe they could compete for and win a World Series. I don't see any of that in Robin. There has never been a doubt in my mind that he's been a much, much better manager than Ozzie Guillen.

QUOTE (VAfan @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 11:31 AM) I did say last year. I would certainly hope a gold glove winning manager would have been so disgusted by the lack of fundamentals from last year that he wouldn't screw it up so badly this year. I think Ventura learned a lesson there, and has improved. That doesn't make him a good manager. He still blows games regularly with bad bullpen management, and the kind of errors highlighted in the game that started this thread. And he still appears to sleepwalk through his job. Do you know how he was preparing his players? By all accounts, nothing changed from 2012 to 2013, yet the Sox went from one of the best fielding and fundamentally sound teams to one of the worst. Is that Robin's fault or the players' fault?

QUOTE (VAfan @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 11:26 AM) As for how many games has Robin cost the team in 2014? Well, how many blown saves does Bellisario have? Just so we have it on record - every game that Belisario blew was Robin Ventura's fault even though Belisario was the one throwing the ball. I said it in this thread. It was absolutely the right move. How many times has he pitched in the 9th inning? How many blown holds does he have? Should he never pitch Javy Guerra? Do you understand that you can blow saves in the 6th and 7th and 8th innings, but you cannot get saves in those innings?

QUOTE (VAfan @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 11:09 AM) Now, let me give you one example game why Ventura drives me crazy. It was last season in Washington, where I got to see the game in person. Here's the write up: http://scores.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=330411120 So there you have Robin himself saying "you're rolling the dice either way" and "you take your chance" and "Harper's hot." But it leaves out some critical information. At that point in the game -- only the 4th inning -- Dylan Axelrod had already thrown close to 100 pitches. He wasn't going to get you into the 5th, or 6th, or 7th. So there was NO POINT in having him extend to pitch to Ryan Zimmerman. Ventura also had Hector Santiago completely warmed up in the pen, ready to pitch to the lefty Bryce Harper. And Santiago was sharp. When he finally entered the game, AFTER Ventura let Axelrod LOSE IT, he threw 2.1 innings without giving up a hit. So what does Ventura do in a game the White Sox had just tied 3-3? He lets his worn-out starter stay in, intentionally walk Bryce Harper, and then face Ryan Zimmerman, INSTEAD of yanking his starter (who was gone anyway before he got any more outs) for a fresh lefty from the pen to face Harper, with two outs. Here's the play-by-play from the 4th inning. Dylan Axelrod pitching for Chicago CHW WSH W Ramos popped out to first. 3 3 D Haren doubled to deep right. 3 3 D Span flied out to center. 3 3 J Werth singled to left, D Haren to third. 3 3 D Haren scored, J Werth to second on wild pitch by D Axelrod. 3 4 B Harper intentionally walked. 3 4 R Zimmerman doubled to deep right, J Werth and B Harper scored. 3 6 H Santiago relieved D Axelrod. 3 6 A LaRoche struck out looking. 3 6 3 Runs, 3 Hits, 0 Errors The Sox could have won this game. After Werth's single, and BEFORE Axelrod throws a wild pitch to let Washington take the lead, just bring in Santiago to face Harper. Santiago was sharp. Axelrod was TOAST. Simple decision. But not to Robin Ventura. "You're rolling the dice either way." WTF????? REALLY????? Not only does he fail to make the right move, he acts after the game like it was a toss-up!!! I haven't had any respect for Robin Ventura's game management skills since. In Axelrod's 2nd start and and the Sox 9th game of the season, Ventura put faith in his young starting pitcher and tested him to see if he could get out a right handed hitter in a crucial point of the game. This was a week after he went 5.2 innings of 1 run baseball against the Mariners and King Felix. He failed. He then strung together 4 quality starts following that game, so maybe Axelrod learned something about himself in that game. Even if you disagreed with it, I think you are being incredibly nitpicky with this. Even in hindsight, I have no problem with the decision that was made.

QUOTE (PorkChopExpress @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 11:18 AM) Why is it a rigid rule that you have to have a "#1, #2, #3, #4 and #5" pitcher? If you could have two #1's, wouldn't you want to? Sale-Sherzer-Q would be an awesome short series rotation. Because in 5 or 6 years, while the Sox are at the beginning - year 3 or 4 - of their 18 year division title run, I'd rather the Sox have money to spend on something else rather than $25 mill on a broken down, back of the rotation Max Scherzer.

QUOTE (LDF @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 11:10 AM) I just don't see it, but I will respect yours and everyone opinion on this. I am honestly not really stating an opinion here. The statements lie in the numbers. Jose Quintana is really, really good. QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 11:14 AM) I was on that ship for a couple of years, but that ship docked and sailed off without me. Q is the real deal. I was very skeptical after the first year and began believing after last year. This year has cinched it. He's incredible.

QUOTE (newguy @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 10:53 AM) He does. We talk about this stuff after every game. Ok, I am going to back out of this discussion for now. Brad doesn't usually like me talking about him with stats & stuff too much. I probably divulged more than he would have liked. He just takes it one ptich at a time & one batter at a time. Thanks again for all your positive comments. I'll go back to being an "observer" of the discussions. Great day to you all. Yeah, share what you can and keep private what you have to. Wish Brad luck from all of us!

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 11:10 AM) Okay. I stand corrected. I didn't see this. I was actually going off of Tim Dierkes's original report from the day that Aiken didn't sign. MLB did something about it and rightfully so. Sorry guys. I didn't apologize for Paulino, you don't have to apologize for this.

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 11:02 AM) Thanks Wite. I was having a good morning til you said that. Seriously tho you make a good point. Soptic got us Connor and IMO, Connor at the time of the trade had equal or more value than Beckham now. Nevertheless, thanks for pissing in my cheerios. LOL, sorry. Beckham just has virtually no value whatsoever at this point. The return you get is a minor leaguer like Sean Bierman - someone who has an idea of how to pitch, but he's low on talent - or Jeff Soptic - a guy who throws hard, has no idea where it's going, and really has nothing else to offer. Like, a 23 or 24 year old Dylan Axelrod would be too much for Beckham right now.

QUOTE (Feeky Magee @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 11:04 AM) http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/07/top-...2015-draft.html Nice.

I think we have forgotten about how completely awful the team was last year. That had absolutely nothing to do with Robin at all.

QUOTE (LDF @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 10:58 AM) don't get me wrong I like Quintana but I really don't see him as a bona fide #2. more like a #3 and he is more valuable to any team and I am extremely happy he is with the sox. Jose Quintana is closer to a #1 than a #3.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 10:57 AM) Quintana has now proved he is one of the better pitchers in the AL. A 3.15 ERA with 0 run support all year basically. Amazing. What has me more excited is the improvement of him overall as a pitcher. He's striking more out, keeping the control in check, keeping the ball on the ground, and even throwing harder. He's an absolute stud.

QUOTE (TheFutureIsNear @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 10:46 AM) I probably should have quoted but I was responding to the couple people who made it seem as if we were giving up too much. I completely agree that trading for Hamels would be right move for our franchise, but that's only because I don't believe we are poised to win at the moment and 1 pitcher isn't going to change that. But from a pure value/talent standpoint I don't think the package in the OP would get us Hamels and isn't even close to too much. If the Sox were in a state where they were 1 move away from competing, I'd definitely make that move. But yes, with the holes on the team right now, the state of the team, and the direction it's headed, it's too much (or too far off) from what the Sox could logistically offer. In that sense, it's way too much to give up for Hamels.

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 10:48 AM) Something like Montas last year, young and very raw? No, you don't even get a prospect of the caliber of Montas. You get a prospect of the caliber of Jeff Soptic. QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 10:54 AM) You get multiple A prospects for Quintana otherwise your GM gets fired. God damn prospects are overrated around here. You're right, I was mainly pointing out how little value you'd get for Gordon Beckham.

QUOTE (LDF @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 10:40 AM) I respect what you are saying, but I some what disagree. We have a #1 true and imho I am not sold on #2. I think the sox need to invest, if they can on a #1a. someone who can step in #1 if injury happens. something like philly did with lee and hamels. How are you not sold on Quintana? What more can you possibly need to see?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 30, 2014 -> 10:41 AM) Eaton DL Abreu DL Gillaspie DL Garcia DL Sale DL Jones DL Lindstrom DL Beckham DL If someone told you this would have happened, would you really think hovering near .500 meant a terrible job of managing? Paulino and Rienzo have been disastrous too. Belisario has given up a lot of runs, Scott Downs was DFA'd, Donnie Veal has been in the minors.