baggio202

listen to what foulke ahs to say about KW and JB...its the usual KW stuff...basically that he's a little insecure whimp..but i really wish we would sign JB back..we need him from the daily southtown Frank Thomas, Jeff Liefer and Ray Durham have taken shots at Williams and a coaching staff that was labeled "hall monitors" by Durham. Foulke added his opinion to the mix. "I definitely think we had some things going on between the staff and the players that were bush league," Foulke said. "You had coaches and individuals tattling on the players. That's not a good thing. As far as the rest of the stuff that went, I'm with Oakland now, so I'm going to let it go." Foulke did discuss how a team that won its division in 2000 couldn't duplicate that feat despite having the same key players for the most part. "We've needed a team leader — someone to take charge and cut the (nonsense)," Foulke said. "I think we lost a couple of key players in the clubhouse with (former pitchers) Cal Eldred and James Baldwin. "J.B. was the court jester, and Cal was the father figure. When we lost those guys, we lost some life. (The Sox) need to start handling things in a different way, but like I said, that's no longer my business."

Don't let this trade fool you. This was more of a deal to unload Foulke's salary than it was a deal for Koch. Anybody else recognize the deja vu here? Everybody's in love with this Koch guy the same way everyone was in love with Toad Ritchie. Any deal KW makes now, I'm taking the wait and see approach. I hated the Ritchie deal. The only deal I've really liked so far were the Wells deal, Jimenez deal and now this deal(I'm talking right off the bat) I laid into KW when he got us Marte, because i was pissed since the guy was going to be on waivers. i dont think he was calling you out per say but this site ran what seemed like daily articles giving us every scenario on why ritchie was gonna be the next cy young...how this was a great trade blah blah blah..for what seemed like months (in reality it was probably a couple of weeks)..i think thats what he is refering to

that 80 year thing was scarry...did they actually think they were renovating old comiskey:eek

hey im having major surgery on the 16th...i could be dead that day...how could you send me to my grave not knowing who the 2nd PTBNL was???:eek btw..ill come back and haunt your ass:D

molto i agree with you there...it is buyer beware..and if you deal with KW after what he did to gord ash and you dont check these things out then its your own fault... but it does question the honor and integrity of KW...do i wanna be a fan of a team that cheats like that???...becomes a moral dilemma

how can you say koch and foulke is an even trade???....foulke averages more IP per season...less hits and walks per ip , better era , more strike outs per IP pitched (which it really amazed me to find out koch is not a strike out pitcher) and a much better WHIP...save pct is almost the same (very slight edge to foulke)...the only thing koch wins in is total saves and thats because he has had more chances.. the numbers prove they are not similiar pitchers... what y ou really have here in koch supporters is "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence" syndrome...we rag on foulke because we have seen all his screw ups...and some of them came at very inopportune times..billy koch's screw ups are just as bad if not worse then foulke's..but we dont get to witness those first hand and they are not us personally so they seem so bad.. just look at the numbers over the last 4 seasons...its not even close..foulke wins in every catagory that you use to rate a closer...

something dont smell right here...teams dont spend a 2nd round pick on a guy that cant break 90...plus guys that cant break 90 do not strike out 1.4 batters per IP no matter what league they are in...something aint right here..i dont think that scouting report is accurate..it could be mixed up with soeone else..its happened before...

ryan dempster's name comes up alot in trade talks...but why would the marlins trade one of their better pitchers for willie harris??...they already have a good 2nd baseman...they could get more then harris and a prospect for dempster...especially since harris' stock dropped after his call up last year

chisoxfan said ". I know KW would of at least told them that (about valentine's injury), if it was the case. " you cant be serious???...right...after what we did to gord ash..

get someone like floyd to play first???...how about they get someone like frank thomas to play first???....who was frank's biggest supporter while he was in chicago???...danny evans...now that karros is gone ill be willing to bet my house evans atleast makes an offer to frank thomas is a perfect fit for LA..he already has a house there in the off season

they are gonna give 16 - 20 million to koch????...then KW is really dumber then i thought...lock up a guy that already had TJ surgery and faltered the 2nd half of last year for 3-4 years???... if thats the case then we could have gave that money to foulke after next year and still have mark johnson and joe valentine....and its much less of a gamble...so again, how do we come out ahead on this deal??? btw..koch is coming off a season where his IP increased 17 % from his previous high..you really want to give the guy a 4 year deal when he is coming off his career high for IP??...history says its not a good idea...because they usually struggle the next season.. or i could just say this....billy beane vrs kenny williams...who wins???

molto..or you can look at it this way...oakland is in the same boat we are financially...so why would billy beane trade koch for foulke knowing he only had foulke for one year and koch for 3...because billy beane is smart enough to know he doesnt have koch for 3 years because he cant afford him...so he trades him to us because between the two..foulke's the better pitcher and he gets a catcher for free... KW just showed his ignorance again by saying he likes the idea of owning koch for 3 more years...bulls***...the only time a club owns a player is in his first 3 years.,..the player has no rights then...koch owns us...because he can go to arbitration and force the sox to pay him or trade him...he will be traded next year if he has a good year because the sox will not be able to afford him...so who owns who.. again, billy beane has a plan and knows how to execute it...KW is friggen clueless...he cant even figure out the arbitration process.. really think koch will be here for three years???.,..wanna bet??

ill hit on the points i disagree with strongly molto said "HOWEVER, if you look at the two, Koch is clearly the more talented of the two. he has more pitches and once he learns how to control his fastball, which will come with time, he will be an elite closer. I could see him being like a Percival. Foulke, despite being good, I don't think has the ability Koch has and doesn't even want to start." koch is clearly the more talented of the two???...how???...because he has a better fastball??...well im sure you would agree foulke has the better change...does this mean koch has more talent then trevor hoffmann and mariano rivera??....or how about mark buehrle?? koch doesnt have more pitches..he throws a fastball and very rarely , a curve...thats about it..kieth throws 2 types of fastballs , a change and occasionally a slider.. control his fastball???...he has been in the league 4 years now and hasnt improved much on his control yet... molto said " contract. salary is identical considering the Sox gave cash in it, BUT Koch will be here for 3 years, while Foulke will be gone after this coming year. " what makes you think koch will be here for three more years???...he will go to arbitration this year and make over 4 million...if he has the great year youre predicting he will go to arbitration again and make upwards of 8 million...more than foulke would cost us...its a no win situation for you...if koch stinks, then you are wrong about how good he is..if youre right about how good he is then he will be on the plane out of town after next year because we would never take him to arbitration..the fact that we own his rights means nothing.. molto said "I don't think this trade has made us better in the immediate future, but Koch is someone who will only get better and will become a top closer in teh game." doesnt make us better for the immediate future??...gee im shocked there...the perpetual building for the future that never arrives continues finally, molto said "you guys are comparing this trade based on what baseballprospectus says? c'mon. everyone is baseball is soo fond of Beane that every trade will work out for him. this trade wasn't a steal for either side. plus, you guys are comparing Foulke and Koch by the numbers. look at ability and Koch wins pretty easily. " there is a good reason why everyone in baseball loves billy beane...because he sees things in player that other GM's dont...because he became GM of the year and built oakland into a perennial playoff team on a shoestring budget by taking guys like KW to the cleaners..trade after trade after trade...but all of a sudden billy beane lost it and a moron like KW is gonna reverse that trend??..highly unlikely

pretty much nails this trade down... Billy Beane rides again: Billy Koch, Proven Closer, has been wrapped up with two minor leaguers we haven't heard about yet and traded to the White Sox for Keith Foulke, Mark Johnson, Joe Valentine, and cash. Keith Foulke rules. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise -- the line that he "was a closer who lost his job for most of the year" overlooks entirely the fact that he was taken out of the role not because he ####, but because he had a couple of bad outings in a row and his manager was stupid. He's been one of baseball's best relievers since 1999 (and he threw 105 innings that year!). Koch... Koch hasn't. I'd love to see the A's grant Foulke his wish and see if he can start. Foulke's wanted to start for years and he's got the stuff to do it. He's a guy who fell into a closer label and hasn't been able to get it off since, not a natural closer type like Koch, a guy with a 100-mph heater and not a lot else. If Beane can get a Derek Lowe v2002-style performance out of Foulke he'd have baseball's best rotation by far next year, even if it read Hudson-Zito-Mulder-Foulke-Bower. Even if he doesn't, Foulke's going to be a significant upgrade on Koch in the closer role, which is the safe decision. Mark Johnson's a guy with good minor league lines that hasn't done much in his service time in the bigs, in no small part because the White Sox spend most of their time complaining about what he's not -- a crappy hitter like Josh Paul. In Oakland, he's likely to share catching duties with Ramon Hernandez, and Johnson may well develop some of the promise he's flashed in the past. It's a case where the change in scenery may make all the difference in the path his career takes. At his best, Mark Johnson's not a top-flight catcher. But he could easily be a quality upgrade on the cheap. Foulke's under contract for $6M in 2003. Koch is arb-eligible, and will make more than $4M, win or lose, with the cash in the deal probably making up most of the difference. The worst part of it is, Koch will also be arb-eligible the following season, and he'll cost even more than that then, assuming the Sox don't go off the deep end and given him a multi-year deal. As if the A's needed anything else in their favor on this deal, they can try to leverage something where they allow Foulke to start (something he's wanted to do for years) in exchange for his signing a sweetheart contract after 2003, or they can let him go as a free agent and take the resurrected draft pick compensation for him. We'll get to read about the rest of the package in Transaction Analysis, but for now, this is a great deal for the A's. If they decide to gamble on starting Foulke, it could wind up being the greatest swindle this off-season.

Jason, the problem isn't that A-Train is bad. It's that the opposing defenses have been stacking the box against the run, which means he has nowhere to go. It is Shoop's fault in that he never adjusted to it and never resorted to passing when there wasn't as many in the opposition's secondary. heather..explain to me how any offensive coordinator could look good with jim miller as the QB???...i dont blame shoop for not throwing...even when miller is healthy his arm sux...since his injury he has yet to throw a ball 25 yards....there is a reason why miller ws cut from like 5 different teams... as far thomas goes...if i remember my stats right thomas' and johnson's yards per carry average are almost identical..somethink like 3.3 and 3.2...no one is going to gain yardage when you cant pass and have a makeshift offensive line... you wanna blame someone..blame angelo...he's the idiot that thought drew bledsoe would cost too much...

"I've been after Billy Koch for a couple of years now," White Sox GM Kenny Williams said. wtf???....he has only been GM for 2 years now...he said the same thing about todd ritchie , onan masakoa , damaso marte , thomas jaquez and ryan kolhmeier...its like a freakin recorded message with KW...he has been after everybosy for years..even before he was a GM...god damn liar

kw loved ryan kolhmeier, thomas jacques and onan masaoka too...so im shocked when he said he the two prospects we got are studs..lol

cotts pitched in low level A ball with an era of 4.12...got along way to go

well i went over to the oakland boards and they love this trade...while all of them said billy koch was a great person , they did say every save with him is an adventure...he did win 11 games last year..alot of those wins came after he blew a save or a tie game and the A's came back to win... looking over the last 2 seasons, and the last 4 (all of koch's career) foulke's numbers beat koch's..especially WHIP..billy's is very high for a closer.. koch had a horrible season in '01...4.80 era and blew 8 saves...yet he was never pulled from his closer role and was able to rebound...kieth foulke after a few bad outings was pulled from his closer role and eventhough he had a 2nd half era last year of 0.74 was never given his closer role back...every closer struggles at some point in his career..they all , except for foulke get a chance to regain their form...if he struggles out the gate next season it could be a disaster for us... but koch could probably blow 50 save opportunities and still get the ball because he is one of KW's boys..so i guess in that respect if billy does struggle he will get a fair shot to right the ship..something foulke never got... this trade..like every other KW makes...will probably come back to haunt us...

no no let him sleep...the less moves he makes the better

our bullpen is loaded???...with what??..our bullpen is one of the weaknesses in this team as for osuna..we should let him go because after 3 arm surgeries he is not near the pitcher he was in LA...unless he reverts back to his old form 9which is possible i guess) he wont have much value at all at the trade deadline...we only got adkins for durham..what would we get for osuna???

Did you watch Koch any this year? Ive always liked him from his days at Toronto. He can go extra innnings alot. Plus with the reliever studs we got coming up, he wouldnt even have togo for more then an inning alot of the time. Especially with the 4 closers we will have in the future. As for his reliability, he blows a save once in awhile. But he is still young, and he will fix that with better pitch control. Plus he scares the s*** out of hitters throwig that stinky cheese all over the plate. Even the great closers like smoltz etc blow their saves also So as you can tell I am a big fan of koch i dont dislike koch...i just dont like this deal...you want to add koch to the bullpen as it is thats great..he could the closer and let foulke pitch the 8th and sometimes the 7th and 8th...i love kieth as the set up man anyways..i think he is a little better than koch and could easily rack up 100-110 innings as a set up man..so he would pitch more...then koch would only have to go an inning and would get his 60 -70 innings keeping him fresh... but trading koch for foulke is just like trading david wells for siro???..what did it accomplish???... nothing..same as this trade would.. now throw in MJ and we give up the only catcher on the staff with any real major league experience....olivo ws a sept call up and the most experience paul has had at any one stretch was 1/2 in '00 as a platoon catcher with MJ...he has never spent a full season on a amjor league roster...so while MJ might not be anything special..atleast we know what we got with him...if olivo shows he is not ready and falls on his face..say goodbye to any chance at a division title... then we are giving up another player too??? not a good trade.. now if it was carlos lee for billy koch id be all for it

i think we are little too hard on rdub...it lookled to me like he was getting into position to recieve a pitch..and from as slow as the guy (cant remember his name) was i dont blame RDUB for that...my god...i think the whole packer team would have had a shot at him before he scored..and he is a defensive back???...no wonder we suck

if the sox do this deal then jerry manuel is going to have to change how he manages the bullpen... in the past 4 seasons koch has pitched in 277 games and foulke in 278....but foulke racked up 352 to koch's 305....koch very rarely goes more than an inning in any outing...foulke has 47 more IP in the same amount of games...i dont think koch with his 98mph straight fastball will be a very effective 2 inning pitcher....this t rade also means we will need to strengthen the set up and specialty roles since those guys will have to pick up those extra innings... the more i study this trade the more i dont like it