ChiliIrishHammock24

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jan 11, 2011 -> 04:09 PM) I really want Andruw Jones back. I agree 110%.

No. Make them take Teahen too, and then maybe, but KW will still have to be creative about money.

I did a write-up for another forum in the White Sox thread, and figured since I spent like an hour typing up something no one there but myself will care about, I might as well post it here to..... I kind of dumbed some things down for people who don't know much about the team or as much baseball as the people here do, so don't expect great things.....

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jan 11, 2011 -> 01:35 AM) There are strong question marks about Sale re: his health and his ability to stay strong and pitch to both sides of the plate (especially to righties) over the course of a season. We know from reports that his stuff as a starter isn't nearly as explosive as it is out of the pen. OTOH, there aren't really any question marks that I know of as far as Sale in the pen. His upside there is tremendous. And, we just happen to have a bullpen in need of help. BTW Tyler Flowers isn't a tenth of the player Chris Sale is. Flowers isn't on the team because he's not a Major League player. Chris is on the MLB team because he is an MLB player. And Flowers doesn't need to be in Charlotte so he can "grow," he needs to be in Charlotte so he can build enough value to get us something other than a bag of balls in return. Why is everyone on the "Sale's health is questionable" wagon? Until he actually suffers from health problems and is injured, that excuse is invalid. Just like the whole "Well, Feliz did it, so Sale can too". Feliz HASN'T started for the Rangers yet in 2011, so he can't be used as an example of success either. Also, obviously Sale is more explosive out of the pen. That can be said for ANY pitcher. In the 'pen you can throw much harder, and the hitter will likely only see you once in the game, so that's the pitchers advantage as well. And Flowers obviously is useless now, but I was referring to last year, where Flowers came off a tremendous season in 2009, and some people wanted him on the team as the backup catcher and to be in the DH role with Jones and Kotsay. However, this was not done because the better route was to let Flowers develop in AAA and work on his skills rather than sit on the bench and get half the innings he would have if he was starting full time in AAA. Obviously pitchers =/= catchers, but the idea is the same that you want your youngster in an environment where he can work 100% towards his goal.

I wonder if the people saying Sale needs to be in the bullpen were on board with having Flowers on the team last year as our backup C and DH rotation instead of letting him develop and grow in AAA.

QUOTE (qwerty @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 07:00 PM) The sox need him now and next season. It's really that simple. Hopefully someone will be able to grasp that. They need sale in whatever role suits them best to win. Pacing? Learning the proper velocities to sit at? Both come with the role the pitcher is in... and come rather easily if the player is talented... hell they don't even have to be all that talented is they are willing to listen and follow orders. Stressful situations? You mean like coming in with runners on second and third with no one out in a tie game? Yes, nothing of value can be taken away from something like that. That is another story entirely though. The sox will not be looking for cy young caliber numbers out of sale is 2012. They will be looking for back of the rotation type numbers, and anything else is a bonus. Great is better than good. Great is better than extremely good. I think my term summed up his season (s) pretty well. I did not claim greatness. WAR is rarely a good tool to use when it comes to relievers unless they are full blown set-up men/closer. Even then, the best of pitchers out of the pen can only post a WAR so high. Wilson only totaled 50 saves in a three year time span... hardly would i consider those closer type numbers. Nearly half of those came in one season alone. Wilson was not a full time closer during his entire tenure in the pen... nor was he close to it. WAR has a hard time distinguishing true value of bullpen pitchers. There is a reason why you almost never see someone reference a relievers WAR. Btw, wilson has a career 4.10 bb/9 and a 1.95 k/bb... pretty darn similar to those 2007 numbers... Wilson walks a bunch of batters, and most likely always will, if he works around that to be a better than league average pitcher, a good pitcher i would say, well i don't see how he can get faulted for it. Stupid argument is stupid.

I always tell people that the guy in the commercial is Carlos' cousin. They have no reason not to believe me.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 08:05 PM) I voted keep him as a starter, then move him to the pen if/when Peavy comes back. All I know is that if we are fighting for a playoff spot or in the playoffs, Sale needs to be on the roster. He's too valuable of a weapon to not have on the team come crunch time. With the starters they have, I don't know if that spot is in the rotation come September/October, so I want him in the bullpen then. If he starts at the beginning of the year, it could also help him build up some innings in his arm for the future. He would be. Minor league seasons end in August, so Sale would then be called up for the final month, aka, crunch time.

QUOTE (qwerty @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 05:45 PM) Wilson's rookie year was horrible... which tends to happen to rookies. I was not even considering his rookie season. You can if you like, i will choose not to. Wilson then went on to have two extremely good seasons, one better than average (good) and horrible one mixed in. I would say he had been good during that time span. He was better than decent, average, mediocre, etc to say the least. Sure sale might be ''vital'' to the teams success this season in the pen. But there is a big picture to look, and the sox are not suddenly gonna get suckered into making him a reliever long term, if they have other plans to begin with, which i'm guessing they do. Everyone is getting worked up over nothing in my opinion. 2 extremely good seasons? 2009, I would say was easily his best season as a reliever. Extremely good? Ehh, I'll accept that. His 2007 would be his 2nd best season, and I really don't think it was all that memorable. I would say it was a good year, but nothing I would consider "extremely good". 4.35 BB/9, 1.91 K/BB. His opponent AVG was really good, his WHIP was pretty good, and his k/9 was pretty good, but overall I would say it was nothing more than just a good year. His 2006 was pretty much average, and his 2008 was certainly below average. He put up a 2.8 WAR over 4 seasons in the bullpen. That's essentially 0.7 WAR per season. Bobby Jenks put up a WAR of double that last season, and a lot of people couldn't stand him. Again, I think CJ was a pretty decent reliever over his career, but him moving to the rotation did not create a big hole in their pen, even though he was coming off his best season in relief.

QUOTE (qwerty @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 05:59 PM) I just can't fathom how it makes the sox worse in 2012. With the money they have freed up by buehrle and jackson becoming free agents they will sign a starter. Likely a pretty good one at that. One of buehrle/jackson could very well be back instead even. Either way, the sox will then have four starters... and sale's role will be limited to the 150ish range as the fourth or fifth starter. Benefit the sox this season and next? Or let him sit in the minors, not helping the sox, just so that he could potentially throw 50 more innings in 2012? It just doesn't make sense to me. I am just suprised you think he can go from Starter to reliever to starter, and succeed and improve at each step, while setting himself up for a starting job immediately upon return to rotation. I think he will have a MUCH better 2012 season in the rotation if the previous year as a starter learning how to control his pace, velocity, endurance, and build his stamina than he would going into the 2012 as a starter if the previous year he spent sitting in the bullpen throwing pitching 3-4 innings a week in stressful situations where he is throwing as hard as he can and not building up any sort of stamina and endurance. The chances he succeeds in 2012 as a starter are much higher, in my opinion, if he spends his 2011 working on that role.

QUOTE (JPN366 @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 05:17 PM) I wonder if he'll start in B'ham or Charlotte? Hopefully B'Ham. I'll be following him regardless.

QUOTE (qwerty @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 05:17 PM) but sale is young, very young. Things should be taken slowly with him... all around. Exactly, thing should be taken slowly with him, and this is done by letting him stretch out in Peavy's spot and then AAA for a year and not rushing him into multiple roles. Sale in the bullpen makes our 2011 team better, but it also makes our 2012 team worse, a 2012 team that is losing a lefty starting pitcher. I'd rather insert Sale into the rotation next year taking Buehrle's spot with some confidence in him, not throwing him into the 2012 season taking Buehrle's spot and thinking "Gee, I hope he is able to make the switch back to starting and give us 180+ innings". We need a starter more in 2012 than we need another reliever in 2011.

QUOTE (qwerty @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 05:17 PM) I can give you plenty of examples over the years... but since he was seemingly such a good story last year, c.j. wilson fits here again. I wouldn't really say that CJ Wilson was a good reliever. He was decent, and could have been a reliever for a while, but I wouldn't say he was good. K/9 was his only real good stat as a reliever outside of his 2007 and 2009 ERA. I should not have said "never", but rarely does a good reliever change into a starter. Failed relievers try to, decent relievers who aren't that important to the bullpen try to, but ones who are vital to a team's pen I don't recall making the switch to start unless they were the long man/mop up man on the team.

As of now.... 7 want Sale strictly in the bullpen. 11 want Sale in the bullpen and rotation at some point 12 want Sale strictly starting, at some level.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 04:39 PM) Done Yeah, I'd change my vote to that one if I could too.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 04:34 PM) Where is the "Sale to start for Peavy, then start in Charlotte when Peavy is healthy" option? Yeah, that was my choice too. So I went with "Sale to Charlotte" since that's the majority of his season anyway.

Then we should start another poll.... Biggest debate on Soxtalk --Sale to bullpen vs. Sale to rotation --Dan Hudson/Edwin Jackson debate

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 03:56 PM) I would rather have Chris starting in Charlotte than in our bullpen for 2011. Maybe that isn't "All in", but it is the smartest course of action for the franchise, IMO. The thing is, if he does fail as a starter, he can much more easily move back to the pen, versus the other way. Yep. Starters who fail turn into relievers. Relievers who are good never turn back into starters. So put him on a path that will, and pardon my song lyrics but "Shoot for the stars so if you fall you land on a cloud" Stars = rotation, cloud = bullpen.

Played The Move tonight at a friends house. I really liked it. The only game I played was some sports package game. I REALLY enjoyed the volleyball game I played. was pretty realistic in movements, and the controller is really responsive. Can't wait to play The Show on it, and other cool sports games.

QUOTE (gatnom @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 02:06 AM) I think it's a disappointment, a pretty big one. Chris Sale as a starter has infinitely more value than as a reliever. Now, I would rather him become a dominant reliever than a failed prospect, but it would certainly be disappointing to have that be the case. Well obviously he would be more valuable as a starter, but not if he fails at being a starter, then he is useless, and that's what I mean. If his "worst case scenerio" is a very good reliever, then I don't see how anyone can be mad about that. But like I said, failing to use him as a starter before he ever gets the chance to fail is extremely reckless.

I don't think J4L, me, or anyone else on the "Sale for Starter" campaign is saying that him being a reliever for his career is a disappointment. However, he should get every chance to be a starter before he gets sucked into a relievers role. Sale needs to be starting games until he shows that he can't, either through struggling, lack of stamina, or injury. Only at that point should be relegated to the bullpen. And if he becomes a great bullpen arm, then everyone should be very happy. But it's foolish to not try to maximize his potential while his potential has not been defined.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 03:18 PM) Yes, it really boosts my self-esteem. I can't say s*** anymore that doesn't involve me kissing the White Sox collective asses without multiple people saying I'm bad and mean. I gave the Sox offseason grade a B minus and at least 4 people acted like I was insane. At least read some of these threads before you act like I'm pulling this s*** out my ass. Well, I think 4 v. 1 does constitute a gang-rape, so I personally think your point is valid. In other news, I give this thread a solid B+.

Lindsay looks interesting to me.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 01:18 PM) Honestly...for a pick in the first half of the first round...that'd be at best an adequate pick, and somewhat disappointing. quite disappointing.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 12:49 PM) Yep, 1 year out of the bullpen so the team has a chance at greater things will cripple him beyond repair. You got me there, I think we should just keep him in AAA for the whole season then, juts to be safe. Having him spend 1 more year in the bullpen means it will take 1 more year to get his accustomed to starting again. Maybe this makes too much sense, but if you are trying to build up a youngsters arm for a future starting job, making reducing the amount of innings pitched each year isn't the best policy. And what happens if he does really well in the bullpen this year? Then next year you just strip him from the bullpen and create a hole on a player you relied on in the bullpen? And if Sale is a reliever again in 2010, then who takes over for Buehrle in 2011 in the rotation? Because Sale sure as hell won't be ready for the rotation probably 2013 if you have to stretch him arm out again because of an extra year in the 'pen. And to whoever used the Neftali Felix comparison.....how can you even use that in your arguement when we have yet to see Felix start? Just because it's their plan doesn't mean it will work out for them. I wouldn't be surprised to see Felix struggle a bit in April and then management decide "You know what, he was great for us in the pen and this starter thing isn't working out so far. Let's just put him back into the role we know he can succeed at". And then BAM, you've just gone the easy way and ended his starting career before he even got a fair chance because his bullpen success has given the coach a reason to keep a good thing going. And then you've just drafted (in Sales case) a reliever with your 1st RD pick, and that's about as dumb as it gets.