Funny, considering I was the only person who called Shields being worse than Latos and Gonzalez.

Well, I did literally say repeatedly: "if I can hit him anyone can - he's horrible".

I keep thinking about the Mariners. They have had their Hall of Fame starting pitcher for over 11 years.

 

Zero playoff appearances. They keep trying to put together rosters around him and keep failing.

 

Plus, we should have plenty of money to play with when Chris becomes a FA in three years.

As much as I'd hope to unanimously win every deal during our rebuild, I'm not upset that this package (on its surface) appears "fair." As much as we'd like to believe Sale didn't need to be moved, there wasn't any other choice. His value is at its peak and I believe the risk of keeping him outweighed the risk of not receiving enough in return.

 

However, Hahn better damn well hope Moncada becomes a stud at the minimum. Also atleast one of Kopech/Diaz/Basabe becomes a 3+ WAR player. The point of rebuilding is to receive numerous contributing players in place of one. We're not helping ourselves in a one for one.

 

I'm not criticizing the deal or Hahn, very proud of him pulling through here and doing perhaps the most Un-White Sox move in the team's history. For the first time in years I'm excited for our future. I just hope this (and future) deals work out because this offseason will determine his fate.

 

Now I have to think Shields being here to eat innings is huge. Hahn still isn't off the hook for trading an intruiging prospect for him, but since he's unmovable, he can go 7+ innings every.....damn....start now

 

As much as I'd hope to unanimously win every deal during our rebuild, I'm not upset that this package (on its surface) appears "fair." As much as we'd like to believe Sale didn't need to be moved, there wasn't any other choice. His value is at its peak and I believe the risk of keeping him outweighed the risk of not receiving enough in return.

 

However, Hahn better damn well hope Moncada becomes a stud at the minimum. Also atleast one of Kopech/Diaz/Basabe becomes a 3+ WAR player. The point of rebuilding is to receive numerous contributing players in place of one. We're not helping ourselves in a one for one.

 

I'm not criticizing the deal or Hahn, very proud of him pulling through here and doing perhaps the most Un-White Sox move in the team's history. For the first time in years I'm excited for our future. I just hope this (and future) deals work out because this offseason will determine his fate.

 

Now I have to think Shields being here to eat innings is huge. Hahn still isn't off the hook for trading an intruiging prospect for him, but since he's unmovable, he can go 7+ innings every.....damn....start now

Generally, I'd agree, but if nothing else, Moncada actually has the potential to become a more valuable player than Sale by himself.

Now I have to think Shields being here to eat innings is huge. Hahn still isn't off the hook for trading an intruiging prospect for him, but since he's unmovable, he can go 7+ innings every.....damn....start now

"Big Game" James should be the Opening Day starter...

 

Just to make this team's tanking intentions perfectly clear. By the time this firesale is over, this could be a 120 game losing team.

So looks like the Nats package was going to consist of Giolito, Robles and Lopez.

So looks like the Nats package was going to consist of Giolito, Robles and Lopez.

 

I'll take the Red Sox package every time.

Generally, I'd agree, but if nothing else, Moncada actually has the potential to become a more valuable player than Sale by himself.

True, he'd be worth several more wins at his potential, but for upgrading the lineup significantly we lost our ace. The goal is improving significantly at the expense of losing now. I'd be very disappointed if Moncada is the only player to come out from the deal.

 

 

"Big Game" James should be the Opening Day starter...

 

Just to make this team's tanking intentions perfectly clear. By the time this firesale is over, this could be a 120 game losing team.

I fully support James Shields in this way and hope for him to royally suck for us.

I'll take the Red Sox package every time.

I'm just throwing it out there as a discussion point. I think you can make a fair argument for either package of players.

As things currently stand, though...Shields and Gonzalez are currently insurance to protect Fulmer next season (as well as not having to rush Burdi/Kopech/Hansen).

 

Guess we have to wait and see what prospects we get back. Giolito, for example, probably would have been inserted into the rotation from Opening Day had he been traded to the Sox. We still have some other prospects or fading ones in Adams, Jordan Stephens, Tyler Danish, Beck, Ynoa, Kahnle, etc., that can soak up innings in the race to the Top 5 draft pick.

Edited December 7, 20169 yr by caulfield12

True, he'd be worth several more wins at his potential, but for upgrading the lineup significantly we lost our ace. The goal is improving significantly at the expense of losing now. I'd be very disappointed if Moncada is the only player to come out from the deal.

 

 

Another way to look at this...if you clear Shields/Cabrera/Abreu/Robertson/Frazier from the payroll, you basically become the Padres or Marlins (minus Stanton's mega contract) and are in the running for any player in baseball, theoretically.

 

Otani, the Japanese pitcher, for example. Of course, it depends on his arrival date, 2020 seems a long ways off, but there are only 3 seasons to get there (and to the new broadcasting rights deal and that influx of higher revenues, hopefully).

 

They once said they were willing to go after an ace like (in his prime, which is obviously Sale as well) Tanaka or even Shark (who's clearly not an ace), so if they do clear the decks over the next 12-18 months, then there's no reason they can't simply buy one on the open market.

 

 

Of course, they're also going to get two Top 5 picks (likely), and then you already have Rodon (who SHOULD progress), Burdi, Hansen and Kopech with top of the rotation ability.

 

So it's going to have to come from one of those three ways...or the stockpiling of minor league talent and flipping it for a pitcher at some point down the road.

Edited December 7, 20169 yr by caulfield12

Well, FWIW, Boston Internet seems to think it was a fair trade or an overpay. Lots of worries about Sale's health and pitching in Fenway.

 

I'm starting to think it makes sense to keep Q, unless they get a similar package for him.

I fully support James Shields in this way and hope for him to royally suck for us.

Agreed.

 

Speaking of which, isn't John Danks available?

 

Once Quintana is traded, that'll open up a spot in the rotation, and I'm sure Danks won't cost too much to sign.

 

Id rather lose 100 - 120 games than to rush Burdi or Fulmer up, and stupidly waste their service time on teams that suck.

I'm just throwing it out there as a discussion point. I think you can make a fair argument for either package of players.

 

Wouldn't shock me in a year if Kopech is a top 10 prospect and considered to have more potential than Giolito

Well, FWIW, Boston Internet seems to think it was a fair trade or an overpay. Lots of worries about Sale's health and pitching in Fenway.

 

I'm starting to think it makes sense to keep Q, unless they get a similar package for him.

 

Passan said that 95% of what we got for Sale is being offered for Q, FWIW.

So, apparently no #1 prospect has ever been traded before.

 

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/159272618/da...ts-ever-traded/

 

Bill Barnwell ‏@billbarnwell 12h12 hours ago

Just worried Chris Sale is going to see the Red Sox St. Patrick’s Day jersey and walk out, never to return

I fully support James Shields in this way and hope for him to royally suck for us.

Some of us aren't looking forward to 4-5 years of being the worst team in baseball once the trades are made. The weird part is Moncada will be part of a horrible 1-4 seasons on the big league level. He'll be called up after eight weeks or so and be up for good. And we'll be in rebuild mode. That will be weird having him be part of the everyday lineup during 3-4 years of suckitude. Hope he doesn't mind losing while getting big league experience.

Some of us aren't looking forward to 4-5 years of being the worst team in baseball once the trades are made. The weird part is Moncada will be part of a horrible 1-4 seasons on the big league level. He'll be called up after eight weeks or so and be up for good. And we'll be in rebuild mode. That will be weird having him be part of the everyday lineup during 3-4 years of suckitude. Hope he doesn't mind losing while getting big league experience.

 

Greg, it took three years of tearing it down for the Cubs to win it all.

 

That's no guarantee for the Sox, but you do understand that rebuilding means get bad really fast, then rebound, right?

 

The first year of tanking got them Kris Bryant, the next got them Schwarber.

Well, I did literally say repeatedly: "if I can hit him anyone can - he's horrible".

 

I don't dislike Moncada and Kopech. They are leaving themselves no margin for error by the deal being heavily front loaded and Moncada and Kopech have not proven anything above AA. The other two are lotto tickets. The bust potential with this trade in particular is much higher than it should be given we just gave up a perennial all star pitcher on a cheap deal. The front office has not earned the benefit of doubt given recent trade results.

Edited December 7, 20169 yr by soxforlife05

I am disappointed that Hahn did not hold out to get Benintendi wih Moncada. Oh well..

 

The plan to do a tear down may not be that simple to execute with teams holding on to their best prospects.. Other than Quintana and possibly Frazier , the Sox don't have players that could be traded for elite prospects. So where will that leave us? Perpetually mired in mediocrity?

I am disappointed that Hahn did not hold out to get Benintendi wih Moncada. Oh well..

 

The plan to do a tear down may not be that simple to execute with teams holding on to their best prospects.. Other than Quintana and possibly Frazier , the Sox don't have players that could be traded for elite prospects. So where will that leave us? Perpetually mired in mediocrity?

 

Eaton, Jones.

 

There is no reason that the Nationals would not be interested in Quintana all the same. There's no reason they'd give Giolito for Sale and not give him for Quintana. Frankly, Quintana is going to go for less, but is arguably more valuable.

 

I can't follow as closely, but follow enough. There's no reason that the Sox can't ask for Giolito+ for Quintana.

 

I wonder where Jose Quintana and Tim Anderson for Trea Turner, Lucas Gioloto, and a wild card gets them. Obviously, the Sox are getting the highest ceiling, but it leaves the Nats Robles to still acquire a CF, while still allowing the Nationals a strong SS and getting a strong SP.

 

(probably not the first person to suggest this, I get this when I don't post very often).

 

Also, didn't love the deal, but I am perfectly fine with the deal. Moncada is incredible. The more I read about Kopech, the more I like him. The other two, I could care less about (regardless of talent, Basabe seems like a 4th OFer, and Diaz is a reliever). There's high risk involved, but as long as they don't stop - don't see any reason they do - this is a great step in the right direction. Do as no one has ever done - deal your core of elite talent (and I mean legitimate elite talent - the Sox have had 6 elite talents - Sale, Quintana, Abreu, Eaton, Robertson, and Jones, nevermind Frazier, Cabrera, or even Rodon. If done properly, they may win 60 games next year. They may also win 100 games in 2020. I'm OK with it.

Also, why Jose Quintana would be more valuable:

 

Jose Quintana:

2017: $6M

2018: $8.8M

2019: $10.5M

2020: $10.5M

 

Chris Sale:

2017: $12M

2018: $12.5M

2019: $13.5M

 

Jose Quintana (past 3 years by fWAR):

2014: 5.1

2015: 4.8

2016: 4.8

 

Chris Sale (past 3 years, by fWAR):

2014: 5.2

2015: 6.2

2016: 5.2

 

Obviously Sale is superior, yet you actually gain a full year more control of Jose Quintana. Assume they are both entering their prime (Jose Quintana is actually 2 months older, but they're the same age, for all intents and purposes).

 

Say it's their prime, and we project the next 4 years, using nothing but the wite rational projection system

 

Sale ends up at 5.0, 5.0, 5.0, and 4.5

Quintana ends up at 4.5, 4.5, 4.5, and 4.0.

 

There's more going on that that, but look at team control. 17.5 WAR over 4 years is worth what it is, even if 15 over 3 years is worth more in the short term.

 

 

Jose Quintana is worth a f***load. If the Sox don't trade Quintana this offseason, they will be dealing him this season and hoping they keep him healthy. They should. They should demand almost the same amount for Quintana.

 

Word this morning that the Nats package included Giolito, Robles, AND Lopez