caulfield12 Posted July 17, 2017 Author Share Posted July 17, 2017 Well, then getting better returns than Matt Davidson and Nestor Molina for prime assets, that would help! Leury's worked out well, THIS year. Same with Avi Garcia over Jose Iglesias for Peavy way back in 2013. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 QUOTE (knightni @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 11:54 AM) I'd estimate that Anderson would barely be in top 15 if he was in our minor league system right now. Sanchez and Saladino were never MLB starting caliber guys to begin with. They'd probably be way down in the 20s on the present list. A part of that worth remembering is that Anderson, given his experience level, was still pushed fairly aggressively. Totally could have been worse, but back in 2015, especially after a slow first half in AA, I was thinking the appropriate time for him to come up for the first time looked like mid-2017 at the earliest, with him getting extra time at both levels to work on the K-rate and other things. I couldn't be as furious about his callups as I was about some people because they did wait until he had a good month or two at each level before promoting him, but every time you could say "yeah but the K-rate, the walk-rate, the defense are things he needs to work on". They pushed him aggressively enough that he only had a little time for each of those to improve at the upper levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 QUOTE (knightni @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 04:24 PM) The current mlb team's success or lack-there-of, has zero to do with the success or failure of the rebuild. I don't see how trying to improve yourself through youth is a bad thing. The Sox have certainly had minimal success with less talented minor league guys and above average free agents. The 2000, 2005 and 2008 players - for the most part, never really had super talent. They just hit all cylinders at the right time. But in rating the rebuild you have to realize if the prospects don't lead the Sox to greatness then you have to combine the fact that during the prospects' maturation, the big league club was miserable. It's not like the MLB club will be .500 during the rebuild, which would have meant contending for a division title. The MLB club is miserable, so I feel it does have to do with the overall ranking. The prospects must succeed big time for the rebuild to be a success. As of now you have nothing to go on besides rankings so it is impossible to rank anything regarding the rebuild, except, on paper, Hahn acquired talent that is considered WS worthy. Hence I logically give the rebuild a 4 or 5 though personally at this stage my opinion stands at the 2 I gave it before. You get a 9 of 10 for the gathering of prospects that the baseball world says are can't miss ... but the current result on the field - total crap -- would be a zero. So that's a 4 or 5. Could it be a 9 at some point? Absolutely? But it will be a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 QUOTE (knightni @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 04:54 PM) I'd estimate that Anderson would barely be in top 15 if he was in our minor league system right now. Sanchez and Saladino were never MLB starting caliber guys to begin with. They'd probably be way down in the 20s on the present list. Intersting comment. Is Anderson a potential bust? A likely bust? I would consider him a top five prospect right now in the organization until he proves unworthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 02:13 PM) Intersting comment. Is Anderson a potential bust? A likely bust? I would consider him a top five prospect right now in the organization until he proves unworthy. Anderson is only 24 years old, way too soon to call him a bust. Young players will struggle at times, but you have to trust that they will come around eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 11:14 AM) If you are objective that's absolutely true. There's no way to give it anything HIGHER than a 5. Why? Cold hard evidence. The current FACTS are the Sox have a horrible baseball team on the field right now. So in that regard the rebuild is frankly a zero. However, in the prospect world, the prospects push it to a 9. So average it out and you get a 4 or 5. The facts are that the team stinks right now and for some time to come. But the experts say the prospects guarantee a future WS or several WS. So you have to average both factions, folks. Like harkness said it is hard to impossible to rate it at this point because the prospects are amazing according to the analysts; the current team is so bad it is beyond belief. If the prospects don't pan out, the current team's lousiness would forevermore deem the rebuild a failure. Sorry for the delayed response to this post. I just got back from 2020, and my time machine had some mechanical issues. It took me a little longer to get back. The good news is that the rebuild was a huge success. The Sox are in first place in the division, and almost everyone's happy. The bad news is that 2017 was such a bad year that some fans can't recover. and still rate the rebuild at a 2. I think you're missing the point of a rebuild. A team can't rebuild AND compete at the same time. Not in a true rebuild anyway. You have to look at the potential of the future. Will every prospect be the best they can be? Certainly not. Will all of them wash out? Most likely no. Will some over perform while others under perform? Most likely. The prospects the Sox have been gathering point toward having a very competitive to dominating team starting in 2019. Plus, you have to remember that the Sox are also putting themselves in a good position to have money available for free agents within the next few years. How the team is doing right now has no bearing on how the rebuild is going. In a rebuild, a team is not going to trade away Chris Sale, Jose Quintana, and Adam Eaton and get back a bunch of MLB-ready guys. It's not going to happen. It will take a while to see the true results of the rebuild. Hindsight will tell us for sure how everything went. But for now we have to look at what the Sox got in the trades. What is the potential? What will this team look like is 2019-2022? Signs currently point toward the team looking pretty damn good...and extremely good if most of these guys live up to conservative expectations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 I feel like the easy part of the rebuild is over for Hahn and now comes the challenge. Any GM could have gotten valuable prospects for Sale/Q/Eaton. Now it's about drafting well, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 QUOTE (ron883 @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 10:11 AM) Never doubt the vindictiveness of KW El oh el Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominikk85 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 10:00 AM) I'm not really talking about signing FA....they can do that when they have a hole or 2 to plug when they are ready to go. That's the mistake this (same) FO made in 2014-2015: tried to plug 8 holes with free agents. They will have to sign a few cheapies here and there just to field a team next year. But as the prospects get called up, they are going to have to be fluid and flexible - move some to find players who may better fit what they are trying to do....especially as they don't draft very well (I'll believe the improvement when I see it) and this set of prospects may very well be it. And they have some young players right now that they will have to figure out what to do with to minimize the amount of "rotting on the vine." Definitely some need to be moved but prospect for prospect trades are pretty rare for better prospects and generally most teams want to let their prospects play it out and see who makes it. Of course ideally you sell high on guys that bust but in these days the other organisations have almost as much information about your guys than you have. The usual procedure is call the prospects you have up and start to trade them when you already have a good team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 17, 2017 Author Share Posted July 17, 2017 QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 01:53 PM) Sorry for the delayed response to this post. I just got back from 2020, and my time machine had some mechanical issues. It took me a little longer to get back. The good news is that the rebuild was a huge success. The Sox are in first place in the division, and almost everyone's happy. The bad news is that 2017 was such a bad year that some fans can't recover. and still rate the rebuild at a 2. I think you're missing the point of a rebuild. A team can't rebuild AND compete at the same time. Not in a true rebuild anyway. You have to look at the potential of the future. Will every prospect be the best they can be? Certainly not. Will all of them wash out? Most likely no. Will some over perform while others under perform? Most likely. The prospects the Sox have been gathering point toward having a very competitive to dominating team starting in 2019. Plus, you have to remember that the Sox are also putting themselves in a good position to have money available for free agents within the next few years. How the team is doing right now has no bearing on how the rebuild is going. In a rebuild, a team is not going to trade away Chris Sale, Jose Quintana, and Adam Eaton and get back a bunch of MLB-ready guys. It's not going to happen. It will take a while to see the true results of the rebuild. Hindsight will tell us for sure how everything went. But for now we have to look at what the Sox got in the trades. What is the potential? What will this team look like is 2019-2022? Signs currently point toward the team looking pretty damn good...and extremely good if most of these guys live up to conservative expectations. Even the Yankees with Torres (before the injury), Gary Sanchez and Aaron Judge were going to struggle to pull off rebuilding and competing at the same time...maybe in another division? But they're an anomalous organization, from a revenue standpoint. Even then, you're unlikely to see them make moves that cost them premium talent, as opposed to financial transactions. Same with the Dodgers, who are obviously not rebuilding...but they're in a position with their prospect depth they can bring up a Walker Buehler instead of going out and trading for a Chapman/A.Miller/Madson/Doolittle, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 17, 2017 Author Share Posted July 17, 2017 QUOTE (GermanSock @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 04:27 PM) Definitely some need to be moved but prospect for prospect trades are pretty rare for better prospects and generally most teams want to let their prospects play it out and see who makes it. Of course ideally you sell high on guys that bust but in these days the other organisations have almost as much information about your guys than you have. The usual procedure is call the prospects you have up and start to trade them when you already have a good team. The most recent (almost) one I can think of recently is when the Marlins were actively shopping Marcel Ozuna for a youngish/pre-arb pitcher (let's say a Rodon equivalent). Luckily for them, they were patient and dealt with some of his maturity issues and are being handsomely rewarded by sticking with him, just like the Sox and Avi Garcia this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 QUOTE (knightni @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 11:54 AM) I'd estimate that Anderson would barely be in top 15 if he was in our minor league system right now. Sanchez and Saladino were never MLB starting caliber guys to begin with. They'd probably be way down in the 20s on the present list. Anderson was a top 75 prospect, he'd be in our top 15. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 06:11 PM) Anderson was a top 75 prospect, he'd be in our top 15. Anderson actually got to #38 on MLB.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 QUOTE (ron883 @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 09:11 AM) Never doubt the vindictiveness of KW Speaking of never letting it go... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 02:55 PM) I feel like the easy part of the rebuild is over for Hahn and now comes the challenge. Any GM could have gotten valuable prospects for Sale/Q/Eaton. Now it's about drafting well, etc. If it were really that easy, everyone would be doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 (edited) I am not a prospects guy. I like proven players, though not many hitters are truly elite and not many pitchers are truly elite any more. That said, a lot of you are prospects people so I ask you, since so many gave the rebuild a 9 or 10 in this thread: Taking all the talent the Sox have acquired into consideration and assuming we keep Abreu around as well as Rodon and Anderson ... can you assure me 1 to 3 World Series appearances only taking the guys we acquired and our homegrown minor leaguers into consideration as well as the fact the Sox are sure to get some more good prospects for David Robertson and maybe Melky? Can you assure me 1-3 World Series appearances and/or WS titles? I gave the rebuild 2 so far cause I need proof and I am not a prospects guy. Edited July 18, 2017 by greg775 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 12:14 AM) I am not a prospects guy. I like proven players, though not many hitters are truly elite and not many pitchers are truly elite any more. That said, a lot of you are prospects people so I ask you, since so many gave the rebuild a 9 or 10 in this thread: Taking all the talent the Sox have acquired into consideration and assuming we keep Abreu around as well as Rodon and Anderson ... can you assure me 1 to 3 World Series appearances only taking the guys we acquired and our homegrown minor leaguers into consideration as well as the fact the Sox are sure to get some more good prospects for David Robertson and maybe Melky? Can you assure me 1-3 World Series appearances and/or WS titles? I gave the rebuild 2 so far cause I need proof and I am not a prospects guy. Nope. You can't assure a single WS appearance for any team, not the Astros, not the Cubs. If you watch any of the baseball postseason, you would know this. It's about getting to the postseason as many times as possible, because the playoffs are a crap shoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WBWSF Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 1) I read in todays Sun Times that the team is not expecting much in return for Frazier and Robertson after they're traded. You have to see how this plays out but I don't doubt that we will receive next to nothing for them. This only confirms to me that this isn't a rebuild. Its simply a salary dump by JR. I figure by Opening Day 2019 the team will have a payroll of somewhere around $30 million. Considering that the team grosses over $260 million every year, JR is looking at making more serious money. This team will be so bad by then I wouldn't be surprised to see the team have a Turn Back The Clock day with the players dressed in the uniforms of the St. Louis Browns.Hopefully sometime around 2019 this team will have new ownership in place to turn around this train wreck of a franchise. 2) I've always been a fan of Hawk Harrelson as a announcer. I wish this was his last season. It's time for him to go. One of his constant remarks the last 2 seasons is that JR is not going to let the Cubs take over the city. After this Quintana trade I wonder if he's going to use that same comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 QUOTE (WBWSF @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 08:00 AM) 1) I read in todays Sun Times that the team is not expecting much in return for Frazier and Robertson after they're traded. You have to see how this plays out but I don't doubt that we will receive next to nothing for them. This only confirms to me that this isn't a rebuild. Its simply a salary dump by JR. I figure by Opening Day 2019 the team will have a payroll of somewhere around $30 million. Considering that the team grosses over $260 million every year, JR is looking at making more serious money. This team will be so bad by then I wouldn't be surprised to see the team have a Turn Back The Clock day with the players dressed in the uniforms of the St. Louis Browns.Hopefully sometime around 2019 this team will have new ownership in place to turn around this train wreck of a franchise. 2) I've always been a fan of Hawk Harrelson as a announcer. I wish this was his last season. It's time for him to go. One of his constant remarks the last 2 seasons is that JR is not going to let the Cubs take over the city. After this Quintana trade I wonder if he's going to use that same comment. Good god man. So much wrong with this post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 12:14 AM) I am not a prospects guy. I like proven players, though not many hitters are truly elite and not many pitchers are truly elite any more. That said, a lot of you are prospects people so I ask you, since so many gave the rebuild a 9 or 10 in this thread: Taking all the talent the Sox have acquired into consideration and assuming we keep Abreu around as well as Rodon and Anderson ... can you assure me 1 to 3 World Series appearances only taking the guys we acquired and our homegrown minor leaguers into consideration as well as the fact the Sox are sure to get some more good prospects for David Robertson and maybe Melky? Can you assure me 1-3 World Series appearances and/or WS titles? I gave the rebuild 2 so far cause I need proof and I am not a prospects guy. Can you assure 1-3 World Series appearances if the team had increased its payroll to $200 million and signed a bunch of free agents? No, of course not. Your arguments are ridiculous because nothing can be assured. You'll only know if any plan is successful after the fact. But if you look at the history of what some teams have done, rebuilding (properly) and making good draft picks works. Look at the Cubs. Look at the Astros. The Sox are finally doing it right by rebuilding the right way. They now have 9 of the top 100 prospects in all of baseball. And these aren't prospects that just the fans think are good. These guys are rated in the top 100 for a reason. Even by conservative expectations, the Sox look to be a very good team in a couple years. And that's before they spend some of their saved money on free agents. It's obvious that no one here is going to make you see the light, and maybe you'll have your day in 2020 when most of these prospects wash out and you can say "I told you so." That seems to be what you want. But chances are that the Sox will be good...maybe damn good in a couple years. This year and next will be painful, but I can deal with that to get what most of us expect in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 18, 2017 Author Share Posted July 18, 2017 QUOTE (WBWSF @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 07:00 AM) 1) I read in todays Sun Times that the team is not expecting much in return for Frazier and Robertson after they're traded. You have to see how this plays out but I don't doubt that we will receive next to nothing for them. This only confirms to me that this isn't a rebuild. Its simply a salary dump by JR. I figure by Opening Day 2019 the team will have a payroll of somewhere around $30 million. Considering that the team grosses over $260 million every year, JR is looking at making more serious money. This team will be so bad by then I wouldn't be surprised to see the team have a Turn Back The Clock day with the players dressed in the uniforms of the St. Louis Browns.Hopefully sometime around 2019 this team will have new ownership in place to turn around this train wreck of a franchise. 2) I've always been a fan of Hawk Harrelson as a announcer. I wish this was his last season. It's time for him to go. One of his constant remarks the last 2 seasons is that JR is not going to let the Cubs take over the city. After this Quintana trade I wonder if he's going to use that same comment. The sporting goods stores at I-88 and Fashion Outlet by the TriState and OHare didn't have a single White Sox item. Only the Nike stores. It was insane how many different Majestic Cubs jerseys they had for sale... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 12:14 AM) I am not a prospects guy. I like proven players, though not many hitters are truly elite and not many pitchers are truly elite any more. That said, a lot of you are prospects people so I ask you, since so many gave the rebuild a 9 or 10 in this thread: Taking all the talent the Sox have acquired into consideration and assuming we keep Abreu around as well as Rodon and Anderson ... can you assure me 1 to 3 World Series appearances only taking the guys we acquired and our homegrown minor leaguers into consideration as well as the fact the Sox are sure to get some more good prospects for David Robertson and maybe Melky? Can you assure me 1-3 World Series appearances and/or WS titles? I gave the rebuild 2 so far cause I need proof and I am not a prospects guy. Where do "proven" players come from? They all were prospects at some point. You cannot go out and field a team entirely of free agents, you need cost controlled quality production from young players mixed with veterans to win in the mlb. Depth is very important as well. The Sox are trying to build a team that competes each year, what more can you ask for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 QUOTE (knightni @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 12:54 PM) I'd estimate that Anderson would barely be in top 15 if he was in our minor league system right now. Sanchez and Saladino were never MLB starting caliber guys to begin with. They'd probably be way down in the 20s on the present list. I take it back. Anderson would be about #8 or 9. But, the top 15 that the Sox have right now, gives them the best system that they've had in many years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 18, 2017 Author Share Posted July 18, 2017 Anderson based on his play this year at the major league level or based on projections coming out of 2013/14/15? Because there's no way he's that low going by the latter criteria. He'd be closer to 5/6/7 IMO, because of his premium position, athleticism and "off the chart" projections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 02:14 PM) It's obvious that no one here is going to make you see the light, and maybe you'll have your day in 2020 when most of these prospects wash out and you can say "I told you so." That seems to be what you want. But chances are that the Sox will be good...maybe damn good in a couple years. This year and next will be painful, but I can deal with that to get what most of us expect in the future. I won't say I told you so because that won't accomplish anything. I'll just be sad if we always stink. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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