How do you rate the rebuild so far?

[caulfield12]

Will Rick Hahn still be the general manager the next time the White Sox make it back to the playoffs?

 

Who get there first, the Mariners, Padres or Sox (only two teams with longer droughts of no post season play)???

[GreenSox]

It also may come with an opportunity cost...let's say the Braves made Albies available but we felt the need to stick with TA because of the extension...which, whether it is Albies or some other guy, to me seems like a plausible scenario.

 

I hope the guy bounces back...the last couple of games he at least has had some good PAs.

Then that would be the FO ignoring sunk cost. The Astros signed Jon Singelton to a premature (in retrospect) pre-arb extension, and instead of compounding their losses, he's sitting in the minors...despite the fact that First Base remains one of their weaker positions (relative to the Astros).

Further, this is rebuild...they need to acquire the best talent regardless of position. They can't start penciling in prospects onto the major league roster this early in the process. A lot of these guys will flop....and when one does, it's "next man up."

 

[Soha]

Then that would be the FO ignoring sunk cost. The Astros signed Jon Singelton to a premature (in retrospect) pre-arb extension, and instead of compounding their losses, he's sitting in the minors...despite the fact that First Base remains one of their weaker positions (relative to the Astros).

Further, this is rebuild...they need to acquire the best talent regardless of position. They can't start penciling in prospects onto the major league roster this early in the process. A lot of these guys will flop....and when one does, it's "next man up."

 

Absolutely. First of all, TA is far from a sure thing. The Sox need SS prospects as much as any position. Maybe more, because SS prospects are known to be versatile. You usually can move them to 3B, 2B, CF, etc. And beyond the TA might bust factor, there's the general thing you spoke of - guys will bust and you need a next man up. They need to build layers of prospects.

[southsider2k5]

Then that would be the FO ignoring sunk cost. The Astros signed Jon Singelton to a premature (in retrospect) pre-arb extension, and instead of compounding their losses, he's sitting in the minors...despite the fact that First Base remains one of their weaker positions (relative to the Astros).

Further, this is rebuild...they need to acquire the best talent regardless of position. They can't start penciling in prospects onto the major league roster this early in the process. A lot of these guys will flop....and when one does, it's "next man up."

 

Singleton's deal is paying him $2 million. That really isn't a sacrifice in modern baseball. The Sox have done this multiple times. It is also a poor comparison seeing as the Anderson deal is significantly higher than that in its last few years.

[KnightsOnMintSt]

I rated it a 7. A lot of it will depend on the trade deadline for me. Unless we trade Q, we won't be getting any huge names back, but there will still be a lot that can be added.

 

 

The Red Sox trade involving Chris Sale I think will work out really well. Moncada will be among the best 2B in the league, and Kopech I think has the potential to be a dominant starter.

 

The Nationals trade with Adam Eaton is an interesting one. I am very high on Lopez as a starter. Some of his off-speed stuff is down right nasty. Dunning is a guy that I am also really high on. We probably wont see him until 2019 at the very earliest, that's my guess at least. But I think with time and development, he will have been a great piece of that trade. Then we still obviously have Giolito. He was the top ranked prospect for a reason. He's another guy that has some filthy off-speed stuff. Once he gets command of that fastball, he'll really be a force. I don't think we'll see him as soon as we may have expected, but when he is ready, I am very excited.

 

I really like the draft picks this year. Our first 3 picks were exactly what we needed. I actually think Gavin Sheets may end up being the best player from the class.

 

The draft picks last year still have some stuff to show. I think Burdi was rushed a bit. It seems like they thought he could actually throw out of the pen last year, and I just don't think that is the case. I would've liked to see him start this year in Double-A. But he is a hard thrower, and I love watching him pitch. Collins is a guy that I would like to see move up. It has to be rare to see a guy with his average, but at the same time have that good of an OBP and OPS. He walks a ton which either tells me he has a great eye, or he doesn't get anything to hit. Then Alec Hansen might be the prospect I am most excited about overall. Many people thought he was going to be the top pick before the year. He seems to have gotten his command back, and he is just mowing down guys right and left.

 

Luis Robert was obviously the talk of the year. I am stoked about him, and can't wait to see him play in the states. Probably the absolute earliest we would see him is 2020/2021, but he is exactly what the White Sox need.

 

Tough to rate a rebuild when we haven't really seen the guys at the Major League level, but I really like what I see so far.

[chitownsportsfan]

I'm putting it at a 9 depending on how the rest of this season plays out. This is really incredible. From zero top 100 guys to potentially 12-14 once Hahn is done dealing.

[whitesoxwinner]

This is most definitely a 9. We now have the stud blue-chip prospects, now all we need are depth pieces to fill out the farm system.

[Balta1701]

I spend 5 weeks in the mountains and a week on the beach and you only come away with 2 top 50 prospects? You're slowing down Rick!

 

Anyway, after the Jiminez deal, I don't think I saw this posted anywhere but it is worth being stated. I cannot come up with, in my memory of MLB history, a single franchise that has ever gone from a bottom of the league system and a team mired at the bottom of its division and wound up within 8 months with a consensus top 2 system, with basically zero damaging long term contracts on the books. It often takes GMs 4 or 5 years to do what he did in 8 months. We have seen it take franchises 2 or 3 GMs to figure this out.

 

Fairly or unfairly, Rick Hahn has just set the standard by which every single future GM of a struggling franchise is going to be judged. Teams like the Mariners, Padres, Phillies - that have been stuck at the bottom of a division for way too long - their GMs are now going to be hit with statements about how the White Sox took a 4th place team and went from a top 25 system to a top 2 system in 8 months and why they can't do things like that.

 

I don't know whether Hahn can take this organization the next step...but if he ever finds himself out of a job for whatever reason, he will immediately get an offer to come in somewhere and handle an organization in that same boat. This is the gold standard. We may never see it done this well again.

[hi8is]

I spend 5 weeks in the mountains and a week on the beach and you only come away with 2 top 50 prospects? You're slowing down Rick!

 

Anyway, after the Jiminez deal, I don't think I saw this posted anywhere but it is worth being stated. I cannot come up with, in my memory of MLB history, a single franchise that has ever gone from a bottom of the league system and a team mired at the bottom of its division and wound up within 8 months with a consensus top 2 system, with basically zero damaging long term contracts on the books. It often takes GMs 4 or 5 years to do what he did in 8 months. We have seen it take franchises 2 or 3 GMs to figure this out.

 

Fairly or unfairly, Rick Hahn has just set the standard by which every single future GM of a struggling franchise is going to be judged. Teams like the Mariners, Padres, Phillies - that have been stuck at the bottom of a division for way too long - their GMs are now going to be hit with statements about how the White Sox took a 4th place team and went from a top 25 system to a top 2 system in 8 months and why they can't do things like that.

 

I don't know whether Hahn can take this organization the next step...but if he ever finds himself out of a job for whatever reason, he will immediately get an offer to come in somewhere and handle an organization in that same boat. This is the gold standard. We may never see it done this well again.

It was really all about having Sale / Q / Eaton - a testament to his contract negotiation skills with each of them and with the team as a whole in acquiring and developing them. Not taking away from your thought process, just adding to it.

 

Can't really think of a rebuilding team starting off with assets like that to begin the process with.

[FT35]

I spend 5 weeks in the mountains and a week on the beach and you only come away with 2 top 50 prospects? You're slowing down Rick!

 

Anyway, after the Jiminez deal, I don't think I saw this posted anywhere but it is worth being stated. I cannot come up with, in my memory of MLB history, a single franchise that has ever gone from a bottom of the league system and a team mired at the bottom of its division and wound up within 8 months with a consensus top 2 system, with basically zero damaging long term contracts on the books. It often takes GMs 4 or 5 years to do what he did in 8 months. We have seen it take franchises 2 or 3 GMs to figure this out.

 

Fairly or unfairly, Rick Hahn has just set the standard by which every single future GM of a struggling franchise is going to be judged. Teams like the Mariners, Padres, Phillies - that have been stuck at the bottom of a division for way too long - their GMs are now going to be hit with statements about how the White Sox took a 4th place team and went from a top 25 system to a top 2 system in 8 months and why they can't do things like that.

 

I don't know whether Hahn can take this organization the next step...but if he ever finds himself out of a job for whatever reason, he will immediately get an offer to come in somewhere and handle an organization in that same boat. This is the gold standard. We may never see it done this well again.

 

Mostly because GM's with a core of young, controllable, TOP TALENT players usually find ways to build a winning team around them--hence eliminating the need to move them! Didn't work out that way for us. Hopefully they have learned their lesson...when these new young guys become our MLB team core, they will still need a farm system and be willing to add guys who aren't 38 years old or 10 years removed from an MVP season to fill any gaps in the MLB roster. And the notion of a bullpen/manager who is capable of using them is important to a team's overall success!

[greg775]

I spend 5 weeks in the mountains and a week on the beach and you only come away with 2 top 50 prospects? You're slowing down Rick!

 

Anyway, after the Jiminez deal, I don't think I saw this posted anywhere but it is worth being stated. I cannot come up with, in my memory of MLB history, a single franchise that has ever gone from a bottom of the league system and a team mired at the bottom of its division and wound up within 8 months with a consensus top 2 system, with basically zero damaging long term contracts on the books. It often takes GMs 4 or 5 years to do what he did in 8 months. We have seen it take franchises 2 or 3 GMs to figure this out.

 

Fairly or unfairly, Rick Hahn has just set the standard by which every single future GM of a struggling franchise is going to be judged. Teams like the Mariners, Padres, Phillies - that have been stuck at the bottom of a division for way too long - their GMs are now going to be hit with statements about how the White Sox took a 4th place team and went from a top 25 system to a top 2 system in 8 months and why they can't do things like that.

 

I don't know whether Hahn can take this organization the next step...but if he ever finds himself out of a job for whatever reason, he will immediately get an offer to come in somewhere and handle an organization in that same boat. This is the gold standard. We may never see it done this well again.

Good post, but it is still going to be judged on how it all pans out. Kevin Pritchard drafted Greg Oden instead of Kevin Durant. If he chose Durant, he'd be the best GM in basketball instead of a guy who got lambasted, fired and finally reinvented with the Pacers.

Now if you go by prospect rankings and what Hahn acquired and for whom? OK he may be ultimately considered the best GM in history. You didn't say that in your post per se, but if you read it it sounds like you are considering this rebuild perhaps the best in baseball history or one of the best.. I say that because of this sentence: "This is the gold standard. We may never see it done this well again."

I will say you are right if we consider baseball rankings of prospects the end all result in a rebuild no matter if the players pan out or not. That Hahn acquired the No. 1 prospect in all of baseball, the No. 5 and so on in just 3 trades.

But I say to you it all will boil down to how these guys pan out. Some of the pitchers acquired and drafted are not doing that well yet.

I'm not trying to be contrarian. The Sox may already have enough stars in these 3 trades with Robertson certainly to bring a lot still to win a few WS titles. But if the players flop and they were merely highly ranked players at one point, that will mean Hahn is just another Kevin Pritchard.

 

JUST WIN BABY.

I will give him credit for acquiring top blue chip prospects via trade. But as a guy who is not a prospect follower, I still say it is wait and see on whether he is pulling off the greatest GM job in modern history.

I know I am probably misrepresenting your position a bit, but I thought this issue worth discussing. Some of the arms the Sox acquired still have some work to do. U never konw about the bats we acquired. I will acknowledge if we had to rebuild, he on paper is putting together possibly a nice future roster.

Edited July 14, 2017 by greg775

[Bob Sacamano]

I still rate it very close to a 10. It is hard to judge it as of right now only about 7 months in. But so far they've done a great job of stockpiling some front-end talent. And with only 3 trades!

[Balta1701]

Good post, but it is still going to be judged on how it all pans out. Kevin Pritchard drafted Greg Oden instead of Kevin Durant. If he chose Durant, he'd be the best GM in basketball instead of a guy who got lambasted, fired and finally reinvented with the Pacers.

Now if you go by prospect rankings and what Hahn acquired and for whom? OK he may be ultimately considered the best GM in history. You didn't say that in your post per se, but if you read it it sounds like you are considering this rebuild perhaps the best in baseball history or one of the best.. I say that because of this sentence: "This is the gold standard. We may never see it done this well again."

I will say you are right if we consider baseball rankings of prospects the end all result in a rebuild no matter if the players pan out or not. That Hahn acquired the No. 1 prospect in all of baseball, the No. 5 and so on in just 3 trades.

But I say to you it all will boil down to how these guys pan out. Some of the pitchers acquired and drafted are not doing that well yet.

I'm not trying to be contrarian. The Sox may already have enough stars in these 3 trades with Robertson certainly to bring a lot still to win a few WS titles. But if the players flop and they were merely highly ranked players at one point, that will mean Hahn is just another Kevin Pritchard.

 

JUST WIN BABY.

I will give him credit for acquiring top blue chip prospects via trade. But as a guy who is not a prospect follower, I still say it is wait and see on whether he is pulling off the greatest GM job in modern history.

I know I am probably misrepresenting your position a bit, but I thought this issue worth discussing. Some of the arms the Sox acquired still have some work to do. U never konw about the bats we acquired. I will acknowledge if we had to rebuild, he on paper is putting together possibly a nice future roster.

With what Rick Hahn started from and where we are right now, this is the best job I have ever seen, and frankly better than I could have imagined. A 4th place team destined to be even worse next year dismantled before it became too late, before guys got hurt or struggled, without any deal where it wasn't at least a draw, and a jump from the bottom of the league to the top of the league in their systems, without the accidental Edwin Jackson, yes, this is the gold standard.

 

That does not make, in your words, Rick Hahn the best GM in history. I still consider it an open question whether he can take the resources he now has at his disposal and build them into a contending team. That's based in part on terrible moves made by Rick Hahn in 2015 and 2016. That's based in part on the other hires around the system that we should correctly be skeptical about until there are results at the big league level.

 

Not all of these guys should even make it to the White Sox lineup. Some of them should probably be traded when we see what else develops from the system. I can't say that I'd be very mad if we decided we were going to trade Jiminez and sign Harper or however they wanted to make it work. The next question is whether or not they can take these guys and turn them into big league production, and that's Hahn's next task.

[caulfield12]

There's also never been a team with the second best (young) LHP in baseball...a 4ish war leadoff hitter who became extremely valuable due to his RF play and yet another of the best (most durable/consistent) #12-15 LHPers in the game.

 

Looking at the Indians, for example, they've even better with a significantly lower budget, Swisher/Bourn/Chris Johnson on the books, the second smallest media market and bottom 10% ticket revenue and local broadcasting rights.

[GreenSox]

Undetermined.

The teardown went fine and is nearing completion.

Soon, it will be time to build the team back up.

It may be that time already.

The buildup is the hard part.

Edited July 14, 2017 by GreenSox

[Dick Allen]

I do like that he is not settling. As far as what to rate it, it's incomplete. Prospects break your heart, lets see who pans out. If the all do, they will be the mid 90s Indians with a top of the line pitching staff. Bit that probably won't happen. You just hope up the middle they all work out, and most of the pitchers. Then supplement with a free agent or two, and it could be tremendous. They still are going to have 2 extremely high draft picks. We won't know, or could go any way. But they did get what they had to get for Sale, and for Q. I wasn't happy with the Eaton guys, but if they work out, great. I am glad they got some bats. You have to hit homers to win where they play. They have only had one decent season since playing there where they didn't hit a lot of homers, and that was before they changed the roof and made even more of a bandbox.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Dick Allen

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Hahn brought in an amazing amount of potential in just eight months. He also traded away an amazing amount of talent and value in those eight months. The jury is still out.

[jenksycat]

Undetermined.

The teardown went fine and is nearing completion.

Soon, it will be time to build the team back up.

It may be that time already.

The buildup is the hard part.

 

It's absolutely nowehere near time to "build the team back up". It's 2 years at best away for all these 20 year olds to work their way up to the majors.

[greg775]

The next question is whether or not they can take these guys and turn them into big league production, and that's Hahn's next task.

He has potential "stars" in Moncada, Eloy, Anderson, Robert, Abreu still and Burger in the every day lineup. Maybe Avi as well. I forget the name of the guy but I thought we had some top catcher in the minors as well. Kopech and Rodon and Cease project to be stars. The Sox figure to draft a projected star next May since this team figures to lose a ton of games the rest of the way.

 

Like you said, the development part is ahead, plus they figure to get another top prospect maybe 2 for Robertson. There always will be potential problems with defense and bullpen, but Hahn looks as if he is off to a good start (on paper). As fans I guess it would be very awesome if the players I mentioned do become stars and worry about defense and bullpen and buying a veteran starter or two to complement the rotation.

[Quin]

He has potential "stars" in Moncada, Eloy, Anderson, Robert, Abreu still and Burger in the every day lineup. Maybe Avi as well. I forget the name of the guy but I thought we had some top catcher in the minors as well. Kopech and Rodon and Cease project to be stars. The Sox figure to draft a projected star next May since this team figures to lose a ton of games the rest of the way.

 

Like you said, the development part is ahead, plus they figure to get another top prospect maybe 2 for Robertson. There always will be potential problems with defense and bullpen, but Hahn looks as if he is off to a good start (on paper). As fans I guess it would be very awesome if the players I mentioned do become stars and worry about defense and bullpen and buying a veteran starter or two to complement the rotation.

 

Collins us the catcher.

 

His defense is light years ahead of where it was expected to be, his power and walks are there. Average is missing.

[Chicago White Sox]

As it stands today, I'd give Hahn a 9/10. He did very well with his three core assets, basically turning a bottom five farm system into arguably the best. And he still has some smaller assets to move to provide additional depth. The tanking effort is also going well and we should have a top three draft pick (and large bonus pool) to add another potential star. And despite our s***ty record, we've had some surprising performances from young players like Avi, Leury, Davidson, Sanchez, & Kahnle. Plain and simple, there is a lot to like so far from a talent accumulation standpoint.

 

What's really going to make or break our rebuild is our ability to develop our young hitters. And in that area, I'm only giving us a 4/10 so far. Look at the K rates below for four of our top hitting prospects coming into the season:

 

Moncada = 28.1%

Collins = 27.3%

Basabe = 24.6%

Adolfo = 29.4%

 

Those are horrific and there really hasn't been big signs of improvement. Obviously these guys are still young and have plenty of time to make adjustments, but this organization has regularly struggled with teaching young hitters how to improve their bat to ball skills. And honestly, nothing has really changed under Chris Getz, which greatly concerns me. At the end of the day, you can have all the talent in the world, but it's not going to do much good if you can't develop it. I really hope there are more changes coming to our development team, because this is without question the biggest obstacle we're going to face if we want to build a championship caliber roster.

[mmmmmbeeer]

With what Rick Hahn started from and where we are right now, this is the best job I have ever seen, and frankly better than I could have imagined. A 4th place team destined to be even worse next year dismantled before it became too late, before guys got hurt or struggled, without any deal where it wasn't at least a draw, and a jump from the bottom of the league to the top of the league in their systems, without the accidental Edwin Jackson, yes, this is the gold standard.

 

That does not make, in your words, Rick Hahn the best GM in history. I still consider it an open question whether he can take the resources he now has at his disposal and build them into a contending team. That's based in part on terrible moves made by Rick Hahn in 2015 and 2016. That's based in part on the other hires around the system that we should correctly be skeptical about until there are results at the big league level.

 

Not all of these guys should even make it to the White Sox lineup. Some of them should probably be traded when we see what else develops from the system. I can't say that I'd be very mad if we decided we were going to trade Jiminez and sign Harper or however they wanted to make it work. The next question is whether or not they can take these guys and turn them into big league production, and that's Hahn's next task.

 

I'm a Titans fan and between the work Jon Robinson has done with that franchise in a short period of time and what Rick has managed to do with the Sox, I'm in GM heaven right now.

 

I give Rick a 10.

Edited July 15, 2017 by mmmmmbeeer

[WBWSF]

This is not a rebuild. Its simply a salary dump. The main objective is to have the White Sox with the lowest payroll in MLB in 2018 and 2019. When you have income of over $260 million a year and a payroll less than $50 million, you're looking at some enormous profits for the owners. JR did the same thing in 1998+1999. The team barely drew 1.3 million in attendance each of those years but they were 2 of the teams most profitable years with the low payrolls. If the so call rebuild works out, fine. Either way JR and his investors will be making some serious money. I realize that the White Sox are a business. The objective of any business is too make money.Still, I would rather have the team making money with a winning team than what we're going to be subjected to the next few years.

[mmmmmbeeer]

This is not a rebuild. Its simply a salary dump. The main objective is to have the White Sox with the lowest payroll in MLB in 2018 and 2019. When you have income of over $260 million a year and a payroll less than $50 million, you're looking at some enormous profits for the owners. JR did the same thing in 1998+1999. The team barely drew 1.3 million in attendance each of those years but they were 2 of the teams most profitable years with the low payrolls. If the so call rebuild works out, fine. Either way JR and his investors will be making some serious money. I realize that the White Sox are a business. The objective of any business is too make money.Still, I would rather have the team making money with a winning team than what we're going to be subjected to the next few years.

 

So basically you believe that rebuilds are nothing more than a fallacy in any professional league? Gotta disagree.

[Chicago White Sox]

This is not a rebuild. Its simply a salary dump. The main objective is to have the White Sox with the lowest payroll in MLB in 2018 and 2019. When you have income of over $260 million a year and a payroll less than $50 million, you're looking at some enormous profits for the owners. JR did the same thing in 1998+1999. The team barely drew 1.3 million in attendance each of those years but they were 2 of the teams most profitable years with the low payrolls. If the so call rebuild works out, fine. Either way JR and his investors will be making some serious money. I realize that the White Sox are a business. The objective of any business is too make money.Still, I would rather have the team making money with a winning team than what we're going to be subjected to the next few years.

Lol...ok bud.