1 hour ago, tray said:

I looked at all available videos of the players I could find and every read scouting report I could find.

I felt that was enough to express my opinion here as a fan.

Do you have some added qualifications? 

Feel free to express your opinion, just be prepared for it to be called out when it's incredibly lazy. @bmags has very rightfully called me out for saying I thought Trae Young would bomb in the NBA. 

Your comparison of Vaughn to Collins and Burger seems to be limited to "can get on base and has power." It also appears that you just took two names White Sox fans would know at random, hence why I picked Micah Johnson and Ozzie Guillen. 

Let's go with Collins first. A left-handed, true outcome catcher with defensive question marks, good size. In college, his walks and strikeouts were fairly even.

Grades: Hit: 50 | Power: 55 | Run: 30 | Arm: 45 | Field: 40 | Overall: 55

Now, Vaughn. A right-handed, advanced hit tool, undersized first baseman who fields his position well. Walks far more than he strikes out. Has ungodly OBP.

Hit: 60 | Power: 60 | Run: 30 | Arm: 50 | Field: 50 | Overall: 60

Similarities: Slow runners, raw power, can draw walks.

Differences: Positions, handedness, fielding capabilities, hitting abilities, strikeout rates, level of raw power, OBP (Vaughn's is absurd).

 Let's add Burger in. A right-handed third baseman, was named Gold Glover in his final college season. Pre-injury had decent enough speed for his size. 

Grades: Hit: 50 | Power: 55 | Run: 50 | Arm: 55 | Field: 50 | Overall: 55

Similarities: Right-handed hitters, raw power, can field their position well

Differences: Position, speed (at the time, unclear how Burger has recovered), power levels, OBP (again, Vaughn's is stupid good), hit tool.

 

1 hour ago, tray said:

Anyone who looks at the available videos and scouting reports of these prospects and then compares CJ Abrams to Micah Johnson must still agree with Hawk that Micah is  a "game changer."     Not even close...

 

 

Well, Micah Johnson had an 80 run tool and was blindingly fast. He played middle infield for the Chicago White Sox. That's essentially the depth of the analysis we were provided with Jake Burger and Zack Collins for Andrew Vaughn. 

So then you went and threw out Fernando Tatis Jr. as a comp for Abrams, which makes no sense in his present state. I've looked at film. But let's also look at grades of all three aforementioned players.

Tatis: Hit: 60 | Power: 60 | Run: 60 | Arm: 60 | Field: 55 | Overall: 70

Abrams: Hit: 55 | Power: 40 | Run: 75 | Arm: 55 | Field: 50 | Overall: 60

Johnson: Hit: 55 | Power: 35 | Run: 80 | Arm: 50 | Field: 50 | Overall: 50

So Tatis comes in with far more power, whereas Abrams calling card is speed, much like Johnson. Tatis is a true shortstop, while we've already seen discussion about how Abrams might not stick at short. That sounds more Johnson than Tatis. So we've got a speed burner that might not stick at his position. 

 

Edit: If I were drafting, I might take Abrams over Vaughn, but that's because the Sox are in dire need of some non-1B/DH talent in addition to a "next wave" of prospects and I'd stupidly draft for need. 

1 hour ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Baseball America updated their mock today and has CJ Abrams to the Sox

https://www.baseballamerica.com/rankings/mlb-mock-draft/

There are some rumblings and rumors that the White Sox might prefer to take an athlete with this pick, and Abrams fits the bill, as does Arizona State outfielder Hunter Bishop or Witt if he gets past Kansas City. Executive Vice President Ken Williams has been in to see Abrams late this spring. You can’t discount California first baseman Andrew Vaughn with this pick either.

Please keep Kenny Williams away from the draft room. The tanking will never end if KW still has the final call on draft picks. 

7 minutes ago, OneDog847 said:

Please keep Kenny Williams away from the draft room. The tanking will never end if KW still has the final call on draft picks. 

Man, I'd be ecstatic with Witt.

Edit: But like the article mentions, if he gets past KC

8 minutes ago, Quin said:

Man, I'd be ecstatic with Witt.

Edit: But like the article mentions, if he gets past KC

Let's hope the Sox get one of Ruschtman, Witt, or Vaughn. 

 

3 hours ago, Wanne said:

Perfect!  I'm surprised in a lot of these draft people have Langeliers in the middle of the round...Jung too. I really see Langeliers as a Realmuto-type player.

The interesting guy on this list is Jackson Rutledge..and they have him going top 10.

The Braves basically have to take a signable college guy with that pick. I'm pretty sure that they don't get compensation if they can't sign a guy again, so that gives more leverage to whoever they pick, so taking a bit of a reach to ensure they sign might not be the worst idea.

45 minutes ago, OneDog847 said:

Please keep Kenny Williams away from the draft room. The tanking will never end if KW still has the final call on draft picks. 

^^^^^

Don’t want Abrams for numerous reasons, but it sure seems he’s their guy 

9 minutes ago, fathom said:

Don’t want Abrams for numerous reasons, but it sure seems he’s their guy 

I think if Witt falls to them, they'll take him though. 

Please tell me all of the reasons you don't like CJ Abrams. I'd rather them take him over Vaughn. 

Edited May 10, 20196 yr by Jack Parkman

14 minutes ago, fathom said:

Don’t want Abrams for numerous reasons, but it sure seems he’s their guy 

God I hope not.  But once Kenny gets involved.  Why the hell is he even involved again?  Somebody explain this to me...

9 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I think if Witt falls to them, they'll take him though. 

Please tell me all of the reasons you don't like CJ Abrams. I'd rather them take him over Vaughn. 

I'll tell you mine

Frosh: .349

Soph: .402

Jr: (to date):  .375

He's been consistently good against D1 pitching from the time he was a freshman.  Sox won't be in this spot very often so they need to get it right.

For me it's Vaughn all day every day over Abrams.

Let's says Baltimore goes underslot at #1 and Witt goes #2. Would you guys want Rutschman or Vaughn?

4 minutes ago, Wanne said:

God I hope not.  But once Kenny gets involved.  Why the hell is he even involved again?  Somebody explain this to me...

It's inexplicable. KW set this franchise back a decade with his horrible drafting and it appears that he still has a huge say in who they pick each year. 

It's also kind of strange that all the writers are going out of their way to link Abrams to the Sox via KW. 

Just now, Whitesox27 said:

Let's says Baltimore goes underslot at #1 and Witt goes #2. Would you guys want Rutschman or Vaughn?

Give me the catcher. 

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

Give me the catcher. 

I agree. The Sox are guaranteed to get one of Rutschman, Vaughn, or Witt.  DO NOT GET CUTE AND SCREW IT UP GUYS. 

17 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I think if Witt falls to them, they'll take him though. 

Please tell me all of the reasons you don't like CJ Abrams. I'd rather them take him over Vaughn. 

You really trust the Sox to develop a raw high schooler?  The fact he projects to have minimal power doesn’t excite me in connection to Madrigal.  However, biggest reason I want Vaughn or Adley is the Sox need immediate help for the core guys in the next few years due to the free agency failures.

1 hour ago, OneDog847 said:

Please keep Kenny Williams away from the draft room. The tanking will never end if KW still has the final call on draft picks. 

What difference does it make? Hahn can't draft either. 

58 minutes ago, fathom said:

You really trust the Sox to develop a raw high schooler?  The fact he projects to have minimal power doesn’t excite me in connection to Madrigal.  However, biggest reason I want Vaughn or Adley is the Sox need immediate help for the core guys in the next few years due to the free agency failures.

I'd be fine with Vaughn if they didn't have so many 1B/DH types already. 2 out of their last 3 1st rounders are likely to fit that profile. If 1B held a lot of trade value that would be ok, but they don't. If they want to go college bat I'd rather go with Bleday. They picked the BPA. I looked at Abrams and I'm not crazy about him either, nor do I trust them to develop a raw HS bat, but they're stuck between a rock and a hard place if Rutschman and Witt go 1-2. 

If that happens, Vaughn is the last guy I'd want them to take. Shit, I'd rather them take Lodolo or Manoah than Vaughn. Vaughn might be a great hitter and all, but as with Abreu that can only get you so far. Vaughn is completely off my board, due to previous organizational decisions. (taking Burger and Collins in 2016-17) Both of those guys are going to be 1B if they ever make it to the Majors, so why would you spend 3 top 11 picks, in 3 out of 4 seasons, on a 1B. Do you see how stupid that is? I get BPA but at some point it just gets ridiculous. 

Edited May 10, 20196 yr by Jack Parkman

Yes they have too many 1b type players, but are they 1st division caliber players. I would say no to that answer for Burger and Collins. People keep on mentioning Eloy going to 1b that’s not going to happen. Vaughn has the potential to be a Goldschmidt/Donaldson type hitter. Sign me up. I really like Abrams, but I’m scared as hell the White Sox can develop him to his highest potential.

38 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I'd be fine with Vaughn if they didn't have so many 1B/DH types already. 2 out of their last 3 1st rounders are likely to fit that profile. If 1B held a lot of trade value that would be ok, but they don't. If they want to go college bat I'd rather go with Bleday. They picked the BPA. I looked at Abrams and I'm not crazy about him either, nor do I trust them to develop a raw HS bat, but they're stuck between a rock and a hard place if Rutschman and Witt go 1-2. 

If that happens, Vaughn is the last guy I'd want them to take. Shit, I'd rather them take Lodolo or Manoah than Vaughn. Vaughn might be a great hitter and all, but as with Abreu that can only get you so far. Vaughn is completely off my board, due to previous organizational decisions. (taking Burger and Collins in 2016-17) Both of those guys are going to be 1B if they ever make it to the Majors, so why would you spend 3 top 11 picks, in 3 out of 4 seasons, on a 1B. Do you see how stupid that is? I get BPA but at some point it just gets ridiculous. 

I don't really understand this mindset at all. The White Sox proved to the entire world this past offseason that they will not sign elite free agents. Vaughn's bat has been compared to Donaldson and Goldschmidt. I don't care what position he plays if he hits like those two. You should always take the best player on the board and Vaughn might be that guy at #3. The positional aspect of things will work itself out over time.

3 minutes ago, Whitesox27 said:

I don't really understand this mindset at all. The White Sox proved to the entire world this past offseason that they will not sign elite free agents. Vaughn's bat has been compared to Donaldson and Goldschmidt. I don't care what position he plays if he hits like those two. You should always take the best player on the board and Vaughn might be that guy at #3. The positional aspect of things will work itself out over time.

I get it, but at what point do you quit taking 1B with top 11 picks? If they had high trade value, it would be one thing. They don't, so I don't understand. If MLB 1B have poor trade value, I'd imagine that minor league 1B only prospects have even less. 

Edited May 10, 20196 yr by Jack Parkman

5 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I get it, but at what point do you quit taking 1B with top 11 picks? If they had high trade value, it would be one thing. They don't, so I don't understand. If MLB 1B have poor trade value, I'd imagine that minor league 1B only prospects have even less. 

In a perfect world, Vaughn would be able to play outfield or somewhere other than first base. But that doesn't seem to be the case. Even so, there's no reason not to take him if the Sox deem him the best player available. Guys like Sheets/Burger/Collins might not pan out anyway, and if they do, they would have trade value that the Sox could use to acquire someone that fills a position of need. Basically my point is that the Sox shouldn't pass on Vaughn if he's the best option just because he plays first base. 

43 minutes ago, Whitesox27 said:

In a perfect world, Vaughn would be able to play outfield or somewhere other than first base. But that doesn't seem to be the case. Even so, there's no reason not to take him if the Sox deem him the best player available. Guys like Sheets/Burger/Collins might not pan out anyway, and if they do, they would have trade value that the Sox could use to acquire someone that fills a position of need. Basically my point is that the Sox shouldn't pass on Vaughn if he's the best option just because he plays first base. 

When you consider all parts of drafting, in my opinion a 1B/DH only player can never be the BPA in the top 5 unless you think he's a a future HOF. He has to hit .300+ with 30+ HR and a .900+ OPS annually to justify that pick. 

Edited May 11, 20196 yr by Jack Parkman

2 hours ago, fathom said:

You really trust the Sox to develop a raw high schooler?

They need to start sinking or swimming in that regard. Hostetler, Getz, etc. have long said the sox development process has changed (and they didn't "have the players" back then)... has it? well lets see it. Develop a high school kid who projects well into an mlb regular. 

56 minutes ago, Whitesox27 said:

In a perfect world, Vaughn would be able to play outfield or somewhere other than first base. But that doesn't seem to be the case. Even so, there's no reason not to take him if the Sox deem him the best player available. Guys like Sheets/Burger/Collins might not pan out anyway, and if they do, they would have trade value that the Sox could use to acquire someone that fills a position of need. Basically my point is that the Sox shouldn't pass on Vaughn if he's the best option just because he plays first base. 

Vaughn could play LF easily. He's really a pretty decent athlete. I'm just of the mindset of it's between him or Abrams I don't even blink and take Vaughn who's one of the best hitters that's come out in a while. That would give the Sox what MANY people deemed the best hitters to come out of college in their respective years.  I'll take that all day every day over a question mark developmental high schooler (see Fathom's comment about developing).

2 hours ago, Whitesox27 said:

Let's says Baltimore goes underslot at #1 and Witt goes #2. Would you guys want Rutschman or Vaughn?

Rutschman. Talents at a premium position that become available to you don't come around all that often.

Edited May 11, 20196 yr by Wanne