August 9, 20187 yr 3 hours ago, steveno89 said: If the Sox are not competitive by the end of the 2021 season, then the rebuild has been a complete failure. 2019 is likely another fairly tough rebuilding year, but we should be getting signs of life. 2020 should be back to .500 ideally, or trending upwards at a minimum. 2021 we should ideally be ready to rock. That's why I said launch them all at that point because they will have failed in their attempt at a rebuild.
August 9, 20187 yr Thought this was relevant. You have to click for the screenshots Edited August 9, 20187 yr by Jose Abreu
August 9, 20187 yr 13 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said: Thought this was relevant. You have to click for the screenshots No reasonable fan is calling for KW/Hahn's head right now. That being said, if the team is not contending by 2021 something went way wrong. On a positive note, we are likely at rock bottom in our second year of the rebuild. 2019 should be slightly better than 2018 and trending upwards.
August 9, 20187 yr 2 hours ago, steveno89 said: No reasonable fan is calling for KW/Hahn's head right now. That being said, if the team is not contending by 2021 something went way wrong. On a positive note, we are likely at rock bottom in our second year of the rebuild. 2019 should be slightly better than 2018 and trending upwards. Lets keep in mind, this is a business first and foremost. As fans we are all thinking the success/failure of the rebuild is ultimately wins/losses. But there is also the profit margin. Is JR's priority the win/loss record or the revenue stream. KW has survived through some lean win/loss years so maybe the success of the rebuild to fans is different than to JR. At his age, hopefully money is an afterthought and he is desperate for a winner like all of us.
August 9, 20187 yr Fans think things are bad now but step back and think how bad it would be if the Sox didn't have such great assets to trade in Sale, Q and Eaton to jump-start the rebuild. Then there's the Yankee trade that brought a top 100 prospect in Rutherford. Prospects take time to develop so patience is key and all the whining won't do anything to speed up the process.
August 10, 20187 yr 1 hour ago, SCCWS said: Lets keep in mind, this is a business first and foremost. As fans we are all thinking the success/failure of the rebuild is ultimately wins/losses. But there is also the profit margin. Is JR's priority the win/loss record or the revenue stream. KW has survived through some lean win/loss years so maybe the success of the rebuild to fans is different than to JR. At his age, hopefully money is an afterthought and he is desperate for a winner like all of us. Keep in mind that the 2018 White Sox are 30th in MLB payroll, and they are 27th in attendance. Forbes Magazine says the White sox are 14th in MLB revenue. The White Sox franchise is making nothing but money in this so called rebuild.
August 10, 20187 yr 1 hour ago, WBWSF said: Keep in mind that the 2018 White Sox are 30th in MLB payroll, and they are 27th in attendance. Forbes Magazine says the White sox are 14th in MLB revenue. The White Sox franchise is making nothing but money in this so called rebuild. Good, more to spend when the time/ opportunity is right.
August 10, 20187 yr 1 hour ago, WBWSF said: Keep in mind that the 2018 White Sox are 30th in MLB payroll, and they are 27th in attendance. Forbes Magazine says the White sox are 14th in MLB revenue. The White Sox franchise is making nothing but money in this so called rebuild. Yeah, the "baseball is a business" thing is a bit of a straw man. Just from the very top level, each team runs as a business but it is an MLB franchise.
August 10, 20187 yr 2 hours ago, WBWSF said: Keep in mind that the 2018 White Sox are 30th in MLB payroll, and they are 27th in attendance. Forbes Magazine says the White sox are 14th in MLB revenue. The White Sox franchise is making nothing but money in this so called rebuild. Of course the payroll is low in a development year and need to play the young players to see what they have. I expect the payroll to be low again next year. That's how a true rebuild works which is better than the re-tooling/re-building on the fly we used to hear.
August 10, 20187 yr 8 hours ago, BlackSox13 said: Of course the payroll is low in a development year and need to play the young players to see what they have. I expect the payroll to be low again next year. That's how a true rebuild works which is better than the re-tooling/re-building on the fly we used to hear. You missed the point. A poster said if we don't see progress by 2020 heads should roll. My point is that JR may not see it that way since financially the rebuild has been a success despite poor attendance. The question is JR more concerned about revenue or wins/losses. We will find out.
August 10, 20187 yr 13 hours ago, BlackSox13 said: Fans think things are bad now but step back and think how bad it would be if the Sox didn't have such great assets to trade in Sale, Q and Eaton to jump-start the rebuild. Then there's the Yankee trade that brought a top 100 prospect in Rutherford. Prospects take time to develop so patience is key and all the whining won't do anything to speed up the process. No question -because this thing is dependent on the returns from Eaton, Sale and Q. The Royals, for trading their Frazier alone, got interesting players. The Tigers got a starting 3b from the Cubs for 2 month spare parts. The Brewers got a top reliever and starting 3B for trading secondary players. And the list goes on. Rick Hahn brings in Gillaspie, Cordell and Tilson. And #1 draft choices aren't exactly turning into Bryant and Correa. Or more to the level of pick, Springer or even Happ. He better hit on the returns for Eaton, Sale and Q. Whining doesn't help, but excuses don't help either.
August 10, 20187 yr 2 hours ago, SCCWS said: You missed the point. A poster said if we don't see progress by 2020 heads should roll. My point is that JR may not see it that way since financially the rebuild has been a success despite poor attendance. The question is JR more concerned about revenue or wins/losses. We will find out. This isn't really true. If it was, he would have gone to rebuilding years and years ago. By all reports JR is the one who kept blocking the rebuild, not Rick and not Kenny. Because of guaranteed revenue from MLB, it is the teams with zero payroll that make the most money, so all of those years the Sox were in Go for It mode, they were giving away profits that would have grown under a minimal payroll instead of something north of $100 million. What you are arguing here is 100% factually wrong.
August 10, 20187 yr 1 hour ago, GreenSox said: No question -because this thing is dependent on the returns from Eaton, Sale and Q. The Royals, for trading their Frazier alone, got interesting players. The Tigers got a starting 3b from the Cubs for 2 month spare parts. The Brewers got a top reliever and starting 3B for trading secondary players. And the list goes on. Rick Hahn brings in Gillaspie, Cordell and Tilson. And #1 draft choices aren't exactly turning into Bryant and Correa. Or more to the level of pick, Springer or even Happ. He better hit on the returns for Eaton, Sale and Q. Whining doesn't help, but excuses don't help either. I do think it is ironic you complain about #1 picks and returns on trades, but then in the very next sentence mention Chris Sale.
August 10, 20187 yr 2 hours ago, GreenSox said: No question -because this thing is dependent on the returns from Eaton, Sale and Q. The Royals, for trading their Frazier alone, got interesting players. The Tigers got a starting 3b from the Cubs for 2 month spare parts. The Brewers got a top reliever and starting 3B for trading secondary players. And the list goes on. Rick Hahn brings in Gillaspie, Cordell and Tilson. And #1 draft choices aren't exactly turning into Bryant and Correa. Or more to the level of pick, Springer or even Happ. He better hit on the returns for Eaton, Sale and Q. Whining doesn't help, but excuses don't help either. The Sox haven't had a top 3 pick (Bryant - 2 and Correa - 1), so its a little tougher to find stars in the 8-12 range. Rodon was the highest pick, and I'd say he's turned out pretty well and the only thing holding him back to this point has been injuries. Madrigal and our pick next summer will be a better test. Edited August 10, 20187 yr by ChiSox59
August 10, 20187 yr 26 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: The Sox haven't had a top 3 pick (Bryant - 2 and Correa - 1), so its a little tougher to find stars in the 8-12 range. Rodon was the highest pick, and I'd say he's turned out pretty well and the only thing holding him back to this point has been injuries. Madrigal and our pick next summer will be a better test. Rodon was a top 3 pick (3rd overall). Edited August 10, 20187 yr by soxfan2014
August 10, 20187 yr 2 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said: Rodon was a top 3 pick (3rd overall). Yah, I know. I misspoke. Besides Rodon, who has been pretty good to this point. Guys like Burger and Fulmer and Collins were not top 3-5 picks and its harder to find elite talent there.
August 10, 20187 yr 3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: Yah, I know. I misspoke. Besides Rodon, who has been pretty good to this point. Guys like Burger and Fulmer and Collins were not top 3-5 picks and its harder to find elite talent there. Yes, but if you have a 3 a 4, an 8, a 10, and an 11, your farm should be pretty good. Remember, Hostetler did say he would have picked Collins 1-1. If it takes several top 3 picks for your guys to build a decent farm system, you need new guys. Edited August 10, 20187 yr by Dick Allen
August 10, 20187 yr Just now, Dick Allen said: Yes, but if you have a 3 a 4, an 8, a 10, and an 11, your farm should be pretty good. Remember, Hostetler did say he would have picked Collins 1-1. Sure. But really only 2 of those guys are on the farm. Collins is still a fine pick IMO. He's got time still, and despite his shortcomings has still been a well above average bat in AA. If he can stick at C, we've got something very valuable. Rodon has been a clear win. Burger's injury is a huge drag, but the jury is still definitely out on that one. Never loved the pick, but he's definitely going to be big leaguer. Only terrible pick to this point is Fulmer. Fulmer seems to have been completely pushed to the side in the minds of most Sox fans. Which makes sense at this point. But he is still just in his 3rd full season of pro ball. His MLB performance (and AAA for that matter) leaves a pretty terrible taste in everyone's mouth, but it is totally conceivable that he wouldn't have sniffed the majors with most other organizations. I think Fulmer still has a chance to be a solid weapon for the Sox out of the pen, which means that pick isn't a total loss. Plenty of guys taken 8th overall never amount to anything.
August 10, 20187 yr 2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said: This isn't really true. If it was, he would have gone to rebuilding years and years ago. By all reports JR is the one who kept blocking the rebuild, not Rick and not Kenny. Because of guaranteed revenue from MLB, it is the teams with zero payroll that make the most money, so all of those years the Sox were in Go for It mode, they were giving away profits that would have grown under a minimal payroll instead of something north of $100 million. What you are arguing here is 100% factually wrong. No, unless you are in JR's inner circle. Suppose JR is getting ready to sell off the team? Then a low payroll is a solid selling point. Hopefully it is a coincidence that the White Sox and Bulls have both gone into rebuild mode and both have their lowest salaries in years.
August 10, 20187 yr 4 minutes ago, SCCWS said: No, unless you are in JR's inner circle. Suppose JR is getting ready to sell off the team? Then a low payroll is a solid selling point. Hopefully it is a coincidence that the White Sox and Bulls have both gone into rebuild mode and both have their lowest salaries in years. come on man, there is zero context in this. The Bulls kept throwing Derrick centric lineups out there over and over, and then went to the 3 alpha experiment two years ago after they paid Jimmy the max. If he was trying to sink the payroll on the Bulls, he did a shitty job. They started rebuilding because it wasnt working and it was getting worse trying to spend out of NBA hell
August 10, 20187 yr 18 minutes ago, SCCWS said: No, unless you are in JR's inner circle. Suppose JR is getting ready to sell off the team? Then a low payroll is a solid selling point. Hopefully it is a coincidence that the White Sox and Bulls have both gone into rebuild mode and both have their lowest salaries in years. You just told me that I have to be in JR's inner circle to know anything, and then dropped a bunch of imaginary selling points of something by your own definition that you can't know. I have history on my side, as well as anecdotal evidence of Jerry's own statements, and the teams past behaviors.
August 10, 20187 yr 2 hours ago, Dick Allen said: Yes, but if you have a 3 a 4, an 8, a 10, and an 11, your farm should be pretty good. Remember, Hostetler did say he would have picked Collins 1-1. If it takes several top 3 picks for your guys to build a decent farm system, you need new guys. Welp, better shitcan Jeff Luhnow, then.
August 10, 20187 yr 16 hours ago, Dam8610 said: Good, more to spend when the time/ opportunity is right. I don't think that is even true evenmore. Look for what MLB guys are going for. It's easier then ever to build a roster on a budget. I'm glad we did the majority of the rebuild earlier prices have really fallen off a cliff.
August 10, 20187 yr 2 minutes ago, Dam8610 said: Welp, better shitcan Jeff Luhnow, then. You don't really know, but he had a couple of #1's that didn't quite work out. Of course he got a #2 for one of them.
August 10, 20187 yr MLB Trade Rumors has said the Mets will be looking for a new GM this off season. Maybe the Mets will want to hire Hahn as their new GM.
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