NFL Thread 2020-2021

[SoxAce]

29 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

Technically from all the reports out there, something went horribly wrong in exit interviews with Pederson and ownership. 

"You're fired!" 

"You can't fire me! I quit first!" 

[ptatc]

2 hours ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

Sources indicate they settled on Lou Malnati's after seriously considering Giordano's.

They can't even get that right.

[bmags]

16 minutes ago, Tony said:

Again.....the Bears situation just isn't complicated. I know they are # 1 in this town and sports radio can't keep saying the same thing over and over.....but Pace built this entire window around the idea they have a high-priced defense with a QB on a rookie deal....that's how you make this work 2018-2021. It didn't. They picked the wrong guy with the No. 2 overall pick. 

For the 100th time....when you go all-in and bust out....you have to leave the table. 

honestly the inner battle with me is just severe cynicism that we will be getting a first, second, third choice and will be taking a pretty big risk.

[Chisoxfn]

11 minutes ago, Tony said:

Again.....the Bears situation just isn't complicated. I know they are # 1 in this town and sports radio can't keep saying the same thing over and over.....but Pace built this entire window around the idea they have a high-priced defense with a QB on a rookie deal....that's how you make this work 2018-2021. It didn't. They picked the wrong guy with the No. 2 overall pick. 

For the 100th time....when you go all-in and bust out....you have to leave the table. 

I don't believe you get rid of people because one decision went wrong (with few exceptions - obviously there are some things that it just takes one mistake). Everyone knows finding QB's is difficult and a huge crapshoot. One can not argue the thought process Pace made.  He scouted and identified his guy and went to get him, he surrounded him by who he thought was a top offensive coach, and than he was aggressive getting Pace in his perceived window.  

Now in hindsight, I would argue his first mistake was if he thought he was going to go QB in that draft where he ended up selecting Mitch and he had any doubts on John Fox, he needed to pull the trigger on a new head coach there - so revisionist history would say mistake 1 was not getting his coach in place so the young QB only knew that system).  Obviously we could go into whether he should have drafted Mahomes or not - but I don't think any team was taking Mahomes that early in the draft - the only real debate is Mitch vs. Watson and why he made that move.

Now in terms of mistake 2 - I am not saying this in hindsight, but I was one of the only people on this board saying he was wrong when he got Mack (and I still to this day believe that to be the fact). I said he was too wreckless and premature on the moves that he made. I have no idea if I am right or wrong, but I do know had the Bears waited an extra year (or at least until the trade deadline) before mortgaging the future, they would have likely been in a better position to read the tea leaves.  

I would also say where Pace missed was his over-aggression towards his guys and his unwillingess to think big-picture and long-term and leverage his draft capital both ways. The franchise gave up too many top picks to get "their" guy and what it did was leave the team devoid of depth and better talent. Pace's 1st round selections were bad, but beyond that, with the picks he actually made, I really can't argue his draft record much. In fact, I would largely say his 2nd round and later was pretty good in nature, but you also can't afford to whiff on 1st round picks like he did (White / Floyd / Mitch) and to have given up draft capital while rarely receiving much back...too often they robbed from the future to pay the now and I don't believe they ever had the team where that made sense...if anything, when they were in the midst of their rebuild, they should have been doing the opposite - stocking up for the time where they were going to need to be more aggressive.  

But just missing on Mitch alone - I don't see as a reason to get rid of him. I don't know the Foles thing and I do agree a GM should get his coach the guy he wants. I'd also say unless they went with Dalton, the reality is, none of the guys most people wanted did much of anything this year at QB.  But if you look at the TE misses and the cash spent there, plus the Quinn miss - that starts to add up, especially when all of that stuff came at the expense of the oline, which really made it difficult to judge much anything on the offensive side of the ball.  

 

[The Beast]

14 hours ago, Tony said:

Your solution involved signing a starting QB, that doesn’t have a name. That sort of seems like the easy way out without offering a solution to me....

I at least put forth more than the meatballs I have read. Newton or Winston as starter, Foles backup, Trask 3rd as back up the future. 
 

Now what about the rest of the plan?

[The Beast]

14 hours ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

So your plan is to let Trubisky walk, yet quoted my post to disagree with my point of letting Trubisky walk? Point is Trubisky may be a good kid and handled himself like a pro, but he has no business being back next year. Move on.

I was talking about Pace and Nagy, not Trubisky in regards to your post.

[Chisoxfn]

2 minutes ago, bmags said:

honestly the inner battle with me is just severe cynicism that we will be getting a first, second, third choice and will be taking a pretty big risk.

On head coach - I think that risk is real which is why I assume Nagy stays. He just isn't near incompetent enough that I think they need to make that move now, nor do I see them investing in a bonafide top of the draft pick where you build the whole franchise with him where you would want to risk the loss of the system.  It is very clear next year we will see an early (but not top 10 pick) added to the team plus a likely veteran to go with Foles and if Nagy is the guy - he can prove that his system works well enough to continue to be the guy and get another chance or the front office can go another direction a year from now.  

I don't see the Bears getting any top HC now - especially knowing they need to get the front office in place first. I do think the president job would potentially be pretty desirable though. Story franchised - presume they would get keys to kingdom and a very good contract from an ownership group who is largely not known to medal.    

[Tony]

41 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

I don't believe you get rid of people because one decision went wrong (with few exceptions - obviously there are some things that it just takes one mistake). Everyone knows finding QB's is difficult and a huge crapshoot. One can not argue the thought process Pace made.  He scouted and identified his guy and went to get him, he surrounded him by who he thought was a top offensive coach, and than he was aggressive getting Pace in his perceived window.  

Now in hindsight, I would argue his first mistake was if he thought he was going to go QB in that draft where he ended up selecting Mitch and he had any doubts on John Fox, he needed to pull the trigger on a new head coach there - so revisionist history would say mistake 1 was not getting his coach in place so the young QB only knew that system).  Obviously we could go into whether he should have drafted Mahomes or not - but I don't think any team was taking Mahomes that early in the draft - the only real debate is Mitch vs. Watson and why he made that move.

Now in terms of mistake 2 - I am not saying this in hindsight, but I was one of the only people on this board saying he was wrong when he got Mack (and I still to this day believe that to be the fact). I said he was too wreckless and premature on the moves that he made. I have no idea if I am right or wrong, but I do know had the Bears waited an extra year (or at least until the trade deadline) before mortgaging the future, they would have likely been in a better position to read the tea leaves.  

I would also say where Pace missed was his over-aggression towards his guys and his unwillingess to think big-picture and long-term and leverage his draft capital both ways. The franchise gave up too many top picks to get "their" guy and what it did was leave the team devoid of depth and better talent. Pace's 1st round selections were bad, but beyond that, with the picks he actually made, I really can't argue his draft record much. In fact, I would largely say his 2nd round and later was pretty good in nature, but you also can't afford to whiff on 1st round picks like he did (White / Floyd / Mitch) and to have given up draft capital while rarely receiving much back...too often they robbed from the future to pay the now and I don't believe they ever had the team where that made sense...if anything, when they were in the midst of their rebuild, they should have been doing the opposite - stocking up for the time where they were going to need to be more aggressive.  

But just missing on Mitch alone - I don't see as a reason to get rid of him. I don't know the Foles thing and I do agree a GM should get his coach the guy he wants. I'd also say unless they went with Dalton, the reality is, none of the guys most people wanted did much of anything this year at QB.  But if you look at the TE misses and the cash spent there, plus the Quinn miss - that starts to add up, especially when all of that stuff came at the expense of the oline, which really made it difficult to judge much anything on the offensive side of the ball.  

 

I just disagree with that when it's talking about drafting your franchise QB at No. 2. Not only did Pace make a historically bad choice (Mitch didn't have his 5th year option picked up, Mahomes has already won an MVP & Super Bowl. Watson is one of 4 QB's with a career passer rating over 100 (as it currently stands.) On top of it, not only was the selection bad, but the "going all-in" comment comes from moving up one selection to draft Mitch, trading away two 3rd's and 4th. I've said before and I'll continue to say I admire a GM that has conviction and goes after the guys he wants. That's the type of GM I want.......but when you have those strong convictions and make those bold moves.....they have a higher flame out rate. That's why they are bold moves.........and it failed miserably.

Again, the entire franchise plan was centered around Mitch. The 52 man roster was built around the idea of having a "cheap" QB at the helm surrounded by a veteran defense that could take the pressure off the offense. The entire franchise doesn't work if the QB doesn't deliver. And he hasn't. Full stop. 

So I can't just say that the decision to draft Trubisky is just "one" mistake....it's so much bigger than just one stand alone mistake. When Pace made that move, he had to know the possible ramifications, both positive and negative, that came with that decision. 

Lastly, Mitch is now a FA. He could come back, he could leave. The Bears could go out and find another starter. They could draft a QB. They could just play Foles.....the point is.....I don't want Pace making that decision. He hasn't earned the right to make that decision, based on his previous track record. Just my opinion. 

[Tony]

51 minutes ago, The Beast said:

I at least put forth more than the meatballs I have read. Newton or Winston as starter, Foles backup, Trask 3rd as back up the future. 
 

Now what about the rest of the plan?

So with Cam Newton as a starter for the Bears in 2021, a guy that posted a 82.9 QB rating in New England (Mitch had a 93.5 rating in 2020 for reference).....what is Cam doing to this team that Mitch wasn't able to? How much better are the Bears going to be in 2021? What are they competing for? Because if it isn't for the Super Bowl in the next two seasons....I don't know what you're doing this exercise for. 

[bmags]

I'm sure it means nothing but I feel like it going on this long makes it less likely they were fired.

[Chisoxfn]

1 hour ago, bmags said:

I'm sure it means nothing but I feel like it going on this long makes it less likely they were fired.

I think if they were just going to hire another football guy (while keeping Pace and Nagy), they still could probably wait a day, especially if they people they were focused on were in organizations who were playing this week.  

[The Beast]

1 hour ago, Tony said:

So with Cam Newton as a starter for the Bears in 2021, a guy that posted a 82.9 QB rating in New England (Mitch had a 93.5 rating in 2020 for reference).....what is Cam doing to this team that Mitch wasn't able to? How much better are the Bears going to be in 2021? What are they competing for? Because if it isn't for the Super Bowl in the next two seasons....I don't know what you're doing this exercise for. 

I don’t know. I’m just trying to come up with a solution as a fan rather than get annoyed with the usual stupidity and b****ing and moaning I read from Bears fans. I tried.

They are in a tough spot, it sucks. Might as well make it interesting and figure out the moves they might do to be competitive, otherwise this defense is wasted and if they aren’t going anywhere, blow this shit up and make the fans who want perpetual rebuild happy. 

[SoxAce]

Bears seriously need to tear this all down and rebuild. Most of their core guys are on the wrong side of 30 (in fact, I believe the Bears are the second oldest team in the league). In the words of Rick Hahn they are basically "mired in mediocrity". 

[Tony]

46 minutes ago, The Beast said:

I don’t know. I’m just trying to come up with a solution as a fan rather than get annoyed with the usual stupidity and b****ing and moaning I read from Bears fans. I tried.

They are in a tough spot, it sucks. Might as well make it interesting and figure out the moves they might do to be competitive, otherwise this defense is wasted and if they aren’t going anywhere, blow this shit up and make the fans who want perpetual rebuild happy. 

No offense Ross, but a few posts ago you called fans "meatballs" for some of their plans....but when I challenged your plan, the response I was given was basically "Yeah I haven't given much thought to my plan, I just don't want my team to rebuild next year, so maybe they can sign some guys that used to be good and hope for the best." 

That's fine to take that position, but when you're challenging everyone else in this thread to present opinions rather than just complaining, you better bring something better to the table than "I don't know." 

I'm not the biggest Bears fan in the world. I understand for those of you that are, you don't want to see this defense blown up. I GET IT. But as an observer....I just don't see a way out for this franchise as currently constructed. I don't see a quick fix. I don't see a way to "re-tool" on the fly. Even if Mitch ended up being great say in 2018, and he's turned into your franchise QB, the window with this current unit would already starting to inch closer to closing. Guys are getting older and more importantly, much more expensive. It's easy to stay competitive with a great QB, but the clock was already ticking on this group, and the reality is they never capitalized on having that world-class D like they did in 2018. That 12-4 season was the year. 

In your heart of hearts.......if you can't figure out a way to get this team to a Super Bowl contender in the next two seasons.......what's the point? You want more of these seasons? 

[The Beast]

9 minutes ago, Tony said:

No offense Ross, but a few posts ago you called fans "meatballs" for some of their plans....but when I challenged your plan, the response I was given was basically "Yeah I haven't given much thought to my plan, I just don't want my team to rebuild next year, so maybe they can sign some guys that used to be good and hope for the best." 

That's fine to take that position, but when you're challenging everyone else in this thread to present opinions rather than just complaining, you better bring something better to the table than "I don't know." 

I'm not the biggest Bears fan in the world. I understand for those of you that are, you don't want to see this defense blown up. I GET IT. But as an observer....I just don't see a way out for this franchise as currently constructed. I don't see a quick fix. I don't see a way to "re-tool" on the fly. Even if Mitch ended up being great say in 2018, and he's turned into your franchise QB, the window with this current unit would already starting to inch closer to closing. Guys are getting older and more importantly, much more expensive. It's easy to stay competitive with a great QB, but the clock was already ticking on this group, and the reality is they never capitalized on having that world-class D like they did in 2018. That 12-4 season was the year. 

In your heart of hearts.......if you can't figure out a way to get this team to a Super Bowl contender in the next two seasons.......what's the point? You want more of these seasons? 

Have you ever listened to the Score or read Facebook? There are meatball fans that call in or write posts and clearly can’t get past, “Fire Pace and Nagy.” I also said not necessarily here in my post.

I threw some names out there and haven’t given much thought to metrics, I am focusing more on their cap and what is realistic given the position they are in. Winston and Newton have been names thrown around before and I am not the only ones to mention them. I could look at the free agency pool again for quarterbacks but those were the ones that I thought might fit along with drafting someone like Trask since they are stuck with Foles.

I don’t think 8-8 will continue to happen if the defense is who it is supposed to be and the right personnel is there on offense, they might get back to the playoffs and win. I also have to look at the rules for trading in the NFL, but I think trading players for picks leaves the team with dead money, so they might get real young and real bad fast, but also have the dead money to deal with too.

[Tony]

1 hour ago, The Beast said:

Have you ever listened to the Score or read Facebook? There are meatball fans that call in or write posts and clearly can’t get past, “Fire Pace and Nagy.” I also said not necessarily here in my post.

I threw some names out there and haven’t given much thought to metrics, I am focusing more on their cap and what is realistic given the position they are in. Winston and Newton have been names thrown around before and I am not the only ones to mention them. I could look at the free agency pool again for quarterbacks but those were the ones that I thought might fit along with drafting someone like Trask since they are stuck with Foles.

I don’t think 8-8 will continue to happen if the defense is who it is supposed to be and the right personnel is there on offense, they might get back to the playoffs and win. I also have to look at the rules for trading in the NFL, but I think trading players for picks leaves the team with dead money, so they might get real young and real bad fast, but also have the dead money to deal with too.

We just agree to disagree then. I just don't see that optimism. Heading into next season, the 12-4 Bears will have been 3 years ago. Since that season, the defensive core has gotten progressively older, and worse. With them picking 20 this year....I just don't see real reasons to expect drastic change on either side of the ball. And without drastic change....they are a fairly bad football team that beats up on teams worse than them. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

Yeah, thank GOD this team bum-slayed their way into backing into a road wildcard loss.

 

We will long-remember this glorious season, replete with its 8-8 magnificence. And who knows?  With marginal improvements on the periphery of the roster to get under the cap, and shuffling the coaching staff around, maybe they can go for a 3rd straight 8-8 season.

 

(They hold parades for 8-8 teams, right?)

[nitetrain8601]

Trubisky was 3 mistakes in one night.

• You didn't listen to your head coach or scouts
• You negotiated against yourself to move up one spot when the team ahead of you had no intention of taking a QB
• You drafted the wrong QB

No one liked that move. No one at all. At best they could live with it. Pace has done a horrendous job in terms of asset management which is the number 1 task for any GM. Picks, Cap, Player, Coaching. The jury is still out on coaching. The Bears are going to lose Allen Robinson due to poor cap management. He signed Rob Quinn on that horrendous deal that no one else was going to give. He never built an OLine. He let the QB situation fester. He has a coach, at best, who the jury is still out on. And he let his defense lose value with Pagano as their DC.

 

 

[Chisoxfn]

For the record - when you look at the winningest quarterbacks in the recent NFL, very few of them were #1 or even the top QB selected in their draft class.  Looking broadly, when I think of the best QB's in football, I start with the following:

Aaron Rodgers = 24th overall

Patrick Mahomes = 3rd QB taken in draft (10th overall)

Drew Brees = 2nd round pick

Russel Wilson = 3rd round pick 

Tom Brady = 6th round pick

Big Ben = 11th overall (3rd QB taken)

The above have been the class of the NFL for a long time (or in Mahomes case the current uber elite).  Obviously beyond that the Manning brothers were both high picks who have won multiple superbowls in recent years (and retired). Peyton is pretty much the exception over past 20 years as the top pick on the board who has been the star studded QB to win multiple superbowls (I discount Eli Manning because he was so darn mediocre).  Obviously we can also look at Watson/Lamar Jackson as guys who might be on this list over time. Watson was a pretty damn high pick, while Lamar Jackson obviously fell in the draft due to concerns over his ability to throw a football.  

In fact - you could argue the best way you should go is build a darn good football team and system and continually invest in QB's to surround them and hope you hit.  Maybe the 

 

If you look at the list of the top QB selected...this is it going back over the past 10 years:

2020 - Joe Burrow = TBD = Obviously first year looks good, but injury issues; 

2019 - Kyler Murray = TBD = Looks like a pretty solid player, but yet to lead his team to playoffs;

2018 - Baker Mayfield = Solid QB...but I don't think anyone would make a heavy bet on him being in the class of any of the QB's on my initial list

2017 - Mitchell Trubisky = 2nd/3rd tier starter - Solid guy, probable long career as back-up with potential to be a Baker Mayfield type of QB (to the upside) or a Blake Bortles type (to downside) 

2016 - Jared Goff = Mediocre QB - 1 elite year, more blah years, likely product of a system, but in his defense, pretty good stats and made playoffs a lot - my personal opinion is he is just a "guy" though...nothing special

2015 - Jameis Winston = Backup - Could be a reclamation project, but no one would peg him as a franchise guy

2014 - Blake Bortles = Backup 

2013 - EJ Manuel = Out of Football (I think) = But short lived and awful career (although I do think he beat the Bears at least once IIRC in the heyday of Trestman's stink)

2012 - Andrew Luck = Was very good, looked franchise(esque) but got hit a lot and obvious injury issues / holding onto ball too long. Out of football due to injuries.

2011 - Cam Newton = Very good early career; Not sure I'd put in class of the top tier guys, but you could certainly debate it. Duration was short due to beating he took, but in general my view of Cam is that his career was underrated. Although his window of greatness was shorter than most "franchise" QB's

2010 - Sam Bradford = Long time back-up, highly accurate middle of the road QB, who got paid absurd amounts of money and who was impacted by injuries.  

[Chisoxfn]

4 minutes ago, nitetrain8601 said:

Trubisky was 3 mistakes in one night.

• You didn't listen to your head coach or scouts
• You negotiated against yourself to move up one spot when the team ahead of you had no intention of taking a QB
• You drafted the wrong QB

No one liked that move. No one at all. At best they could live with it. Pace has done a horrendous job in terms of asset management which is the number 1 task for any GM. Picks, Cap, Player, Coaching. The jury is still out on coaching. The Bears are going to lose Allen Robinson due to poor cap management. He signed Rob Quinn on that horrendous deal that no one else was going to give. He never built an OLine. He let the QB situation fester. He has a coach, at best, who the jury is still out on. And he let his defense lose value with Pagano as their DC.

 

 

This is an extremely fair take.  Very concise Ninetrain.  

[thxfrthmmrs]

2 hours ago, The Beast said:

Have you ever listened to the Score or read Facebook? There are meatball fans that call in or write posts and clearly can’t get past, “Fire Pace and Nagy.” I also said not necessarily here in my post.

I threw some names out there and haven’t given much thought to metrics, I am focusing more on their cap and what is realistic given the position they are in. Winston and Newton have been names thrown around before and I am not the only ones to mention them. I could look at the free agency pool again for quarterbacks but those were the ones that I thought might fit along with drafting someone like Trask since they are stuck with Foles.

I don’t think 8-8 will continue to happen if the defense is who it is supposed to be and the right personnel is there on offense, they might get back to the playoffs and win. I also have to look at the rules for trading in the NFL, but I think trading players for picks leaves the team with dead money, so they might get real young and real bad fast, but also have the dead money to deal with too.

The elite defense from two years ago is long gone. Their best players will be a 32 year old DT and a 30 year old pass rusher heading into next season. They’re playing massive money to two edge rushers who couldn’t consistently rush the passer, their secondary cannot cover and generate turnover. Some of it could benefit from a change in coaching and scheme, it could still be a top 8-10 defense, but it’s not a unit carry a punchless offense.

On offense, they need a #1 WR, a new QB two tackles, and a move TE. They have no cap space to work with. Sure they could kick the can down road and restructure a bunch of guys, but they got too many holes to fill. I don’t think Winston or Cam are answers here, if Belichick couldn’t get anything out of Cam, you think Nagy could? Winston could have been had for next to nothing last offseason, but Pace decided to trade a pick and pick up Foles’ remaining salary. That should tell you how Nagy thinks he would fit.

They made the playoffs going 8-8, they might not be as lucky next year (and let’s not forget they won 3 games to start they could have easily lost). There is no upside to this team, just hit the reset button now and hope to hang with the Packers in 2 years when Rodgers might start to slowing down.

[Chisoxfn]

Still nothing out of Halas hall, but Allen Robinson indicated in an interview today that he didn't know what coach was calling the plays the past 2 games.  Not sure that it matters - might just be more the fact that multiple coaches are involved or it could be an indirect shot at Nagy.  Bears had multiple games this season with less than 2 3rd down conversions. While you can point to Nagy's record and 2 playoff appearances in 3 years - you can't ignore the sheer ineptitude of this offense.  The problem is - with the late start they are getting, unless they have a guy they really like that they know they can get - I don't know that making a move on Nagy now is super critical.

But you can't ignore the big personnel misses, imo.  It seems to be the issue is I think the McCaskey's think very highly of Nagy/Pace the person and that factors into it. Anyone who thinks otherwise is niave to how the real world works. If they were jerks - the decision to make a change is always easier.  People are still humans and there is always a human aspect to everything.  

[Chi Town Sox]

I think everyone in this thread is correct and the fact that nobody can figure out who's fault it is proves that everyone needs to go.  

[Chisoxfn]

Sounds like we will know by end of day - but one concerning piece is, it doesn't seem like they had really thought very much down this path - would lead us to believe not a lot of truth to any thoughts on a new president type of figurehead (but i guess we will see).  

[bmags]

23 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

Sounds like we will know by end of day - but one concerning piece is, it doesn't seem like they had really thought very much down this path - would lead us to believe not a lot of truth to any thoughts on a new president type of figurehead (but i guess we will see).  

Seems like the hints are that pagano will be the sacrificial lamb.