Orlando Posted November 9, 2020 Author Share Posted November 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: And I'm the opposite, I feel like we've seen an enormous amount of long-term damage done when we've made bets like that, and we've seen other teams repeatedly do a lot of damage to themselves with similar moves. I get your point and agree to an extent but the Sox have never had a roster like this under Hahn. He traded for Samardzja and Shields with rosters that were borderline “ok” and not sure fire contenders. I’ve never seen Hahn make a move for a young controlled player like Marquez especially with a team that is an instant contender. This trade would remind me of the Sale to Red Sox trade. No Sale no Championship. It probably was terrifying to lose Moncada and Kopech but it got them over the hump. Now the Red Sox are out of their window and Kopech still hasn’t become anything and Moncada is good but he wouldn’t turn today’s red Sox into a contender so losing him can’t be something to regret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maloney.adam Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, mqr said: They can trade him too! I agree. However, I still think they should keep Kopech because we haven’t seen that much of him to even make a call but eventually you may be able to make a case if he doesn’t turn out to be as advertised. Edited November 9, 2020 by maloney.adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: I'm not a huge fan of Cease and would definitely sell on him if he still has a ton of value. I'd trade both Cease and Dunning before Kopech or Vaughn. I'm fine moving out a couple of young pitchers for a long term plug. I wouldn't want to trade Kopech or Crochet though. I feel like we will be having this same conversation next year about how Kopech didn’t show us that much and should be moved if he still has value. Because that’s not unusual for pitchers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 Just now, Balta1701 said: I feel like we will be having this same conversation next year about how Kopech didn’t show us that much and should be moved if he still has value. Because that’s not unusual for pitchers. And we had it about Giolito when he was the worst pitcher in baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, Orlando said: I get your point and agree to an extent but the Sox have never had a roster like this under Hahn. He traded for Samardzja and Shields with rosters that were borderline “ok” and not sure fire contenders. I’ve never seen Hahn make a move for a young controlled player like Marquez especially with a team that is an instant contender. This trade would remind me of the Sale to Red Sox trade. No Sale no Championship. It probably was terrifying to lose Moncada and Kopech but it got them over the hump. Now the Red Sox are out of their window and Kopech still hasn’t become anything and Moncada is good but he wouldn’t turn today’s red Sox into a contender so losing him can’t be something to regret. Except Marquez isn’t one of the best starters in baseball. The other version of this is it reminds me of the Cubs trade for Quintana. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 Just now, southsider2k5 said: And we had it about Giolito when he was the worst pitcher in baseball. In all our how to compete in 2019 articles he was released. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxBlanco Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 19 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: I really don’t want to give up on both Cease & Kopech though. I know most here are really down on Dylan but I think he could be a pitching coach away from taking that next step. I’d much rather do Kopech + Madrigal and hold onto to both Cease & Vaughn if at all possible. No idea how the Rockies would view Nick though. I’m with you in regards to Cease. I was actually higher on him than most during this past season, and I’d love to see what he could do with a different pitching coach. It’s tough. Part of me says no way we should give up both Cease and Kopech, but another part of me says it’s more likely both become busts than both become stars. So even if only one hits, getting Marquez could be a wash. But then I keep thinking that there’s a chance Kopech is an absolute ace. I’d hate to give up on that possibility. Alright, I’ve convinced myself. Just sign Bauer and don’t give up both of them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Posted November 9, 2020 Author Share Posted November 9, 2020 FWIW I have a friend who has a friend (I know super second hand info) who works in a MLB front office. He told me their internal projections HATE Cease. 🤷♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Posted November 9, 2020 Author Share Posted November 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Except Marquez isn’t one of the best starters in baseball. The other version of this is it reminds me of the Cubs trade for Quintana. Fair point but I don’t think anyone in the system is a prospect as valuable as Eloy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Orlando said: FWIW I have a friend who has a friend (I know super second hand info) who works in a MLB front office. He told me their internal projections HATE Cease. 🤷♂️ Makes sense. He might have very little value, for all we know. I'm seeing what they're seeing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Orlando said: Fair point but I don’t think anyone in the system is a prospect as valuable as Eloy If we had a normal season, Vaughn would have been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 at the rate this offseason is going, we're getting Adam Wainwright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maloney.adam Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm said: at the rate this offseason is going, we're getting Adam Wainwright No I don’t think so. Too early yet. All of the big name free agents haven’t accepted or rejected their qualifying offers yet except for Bauer. He rejected his. They have until November 11th to decide. Edited November 9, 2020 by maloney.adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said: Makes sense. He might have very little value, for all we know. I'm seeing what they're seeing. If his value isn’t that high then there’s no rush to trade him before it drops? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: If his value isn’t that high then there’s no rush to trade him before it drops? Correct. It would suck as it would mean that any deal for a major piece would have to include Vaughn, Kopech or Crochet. Ew. If they're trading for a RF they're going to lock up long-term, I'm fine with moving Vaughn. If they're trading for a pitcher that is established and has a bunch of team control left like Gallen or Woodruff I'd begrudgingly move Kopech. If they trade Crochet I'll scream because lefties with his stuff don't grow on trees. Spending only money and keeping your young guys is probably the best way to go. Edited November 9, 2020 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Posted November 9, 2020 Author Share Posted November 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm said: at the rate this offseason is going, we're getting Adam Wainwright They didn’t even sign Grandal until late November and that was early last year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 I agree that I don't like buying control, and I could see woodruff becoming a #1 before Marquez. That said...pitchers are weird and unreliable, and if I could trade a kopech and cease to get a Marquez I do it 10/10. And if I have to trade a vaughn, I would have to be at mid-season with some certainty in the team's needs at that point. The problem with the cubs wasn't quintana. It was that they needed a quintana because all of their high priced acquisitions were not adding value while the rest of their cheap core was, and then they started producing when their core dropped off. It happens and as much as I laugh at it, it was a bit unlucky and probably should have worked better than it did. If the white sox trade for a woodruff, sign a Quintana, a top line (hendricks, treinan, colome) reliever and George springer, they have time to use draft + international to build up that depth, meanwhile have much higher certainty of production in 2021 which is really really valuable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 51 minutes ago, maloney.adam said: It’s funny last year most we’re saying, oh Kopech is going to be a future star but now all of a sudden you want to trade him. Is it because he opted out of this year and the perception is he will turn out to be a bust? I think the reality is his TJS & opt-out have impacted his ability to pitch a full workload next year and possibly 2022, which doesn’t align great with the early years of our window. By no means do you give him away or trade him below value, but if I can get a guy Marquez for him that could greatly improve our chances of winning these next two years while still have control of him in 2023 & 2024. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 54 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: I mean this is the problem I have with basically all of the trade concepts - even if you're getting back the better player right now, you are almost certainly weakening the roster as soon as 2 years down the road because you're giving up way more years of control, so if you're saying "win championships" plural...well...then you're IMO better off hoarding your youth. Kopech has five years of control at the moment while Marquez has four. It really depends on what the other pieces are for what you say to be true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 Just now, Chicago White Sox said: Kopech has five years of control at the moment while Marquez has four. It really depends on what the other pieces are for what you say to be true. Ok Cease straight up for Marquez I’m fine with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 18 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said: I’m with you in regards to Cease. I was actually higher on him than most during this past season, and I’d love to see what he could do with a different pitching coach. It’s tough. Part of me says no way we should give up both Cease and Kopech, but another part of me says it’s more likely both become busts than both become stars. So even if only one hits, getting Marquez could be a wash. But then I keep thinking that there’s a chance Kopech is an absolute ace. I’d hate to give up on that possibility. Alright, I’ve convinced myself. Just sign Bauer and don’t give up both of them. Sign Bauer and let the new pitching coach fix Cease, Kopech, and Dunning. These trades for our best prospects (Vaughn, Madrigal, Kopech, Cease) make me ill. Use free agency...it's only money. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 29 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Except Marquez isn’t one of the best starters in baseball. The other version of this is it reminds me of the Cubs trade for Quintana. SSS, but he was the 7th best starter in baseball this year per fWAR. I think you’re underselling him a bit by comparing him to Quintana. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maloney.adam Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 (edited) The emotional bond or attachment to certain players on this board is something else. When you rebuild towards winning championships, you groom or grow your farm to create value for future acquisitions; this means you may have to give up some of those players you developed during the rebuild to acquire players that will help you win championships. I’m not saying they should give up the whole farm but they will have to give up something. I think the problem is some people, not all, on this board are so used to losing because there mind is already trained on it or they have this perception that the rebuild is still going. It’s over folks, time to move on and start winning championships. Edited November 9, 2020 by maloney.adam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: SSS, but he was the 7th best starter in baseball this year per fWAR. I think you’re underselling him a bit by comparing him to Quintana. Guess what pitcher was 7th in fWAR in 2016. You’re not allowed to look it up. 1 guess. Hint: I’m laughing. A lot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomPickle Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: SSS, but he was the 7th best starter in baseball this year per fWAR. I think you’re underselling him a bit by comparing him to Quintana. In 2016 Quintana was the 7th best starter in baseball per fWAR. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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