2 minutes ago, hogan873 said:

Despite the Sox having a lot of talent, the Astros are the better team right now.  Even looking at just talent, there are fewer holes on Houston's team.  But the bigger issue is execution.  The Sox did not play well, and there were some management miscues.  The majority of the fault lies with the players, though.  You're not going to win a series against a very good team by hitting mostly singles, hitting into a bunch of ground ball outs and DPs, and having all of your starters exit the game early.

I still don't like the approach down the stretch, taking it easy, playing subpar baseball.  That mentality carried over into the playoffs, even though we were told that wouldn't happen.  But that's on the players, too to an extent.  These are professionals who for the most part didn't do their jobs well when it really counted.

I'm still not sure this was the case. As others have pointed out many of the players still looked less explosive and slow during the playoffs. Was this the mentality of taking it easy or was it nagging injuries that they were hoping the rest would help but ultimately didn't

Regardless the players didn't perform. There are many hypotheses as to why, all of which probably contributed to some extent.

11 minutes ago, hogan873 said:

Despite the Sox having a lot of talent, the Astros are the better team right now.  Even looking at just talent, there are fewer holes on Houston's team.  But the bigger issue is execution.  The Sox did not play well, and there were some management miscues.  The majority of the fault lies with the players, though.  You're not going to win a series against a very good team by hitting mostly singles, hitting into a bunch of ground ball outs and DPs, and having all of your starters exit the game early.

I still don't like the approach down the stretch, taking it easy, playing subpar baseball.  That mentality carried over into the playoffs, even though we were told that wouldn't happen.  But that's on the players, too to an extent.  These are professionals who for the most part didn't do their jobs well when it really counted.

Very well said. 

2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I'm still not sure this was the case. As others have pointed out many of the players still looked less explosive and slow during the playoffs. Was this the mentality of taking it easy or was it nagging injuries that they were hoping the rest would help but ultimately didn't

Regardless the players didn't perform. There are many hypotheses as to why, all of which probably contributed to some extent.

Good point.  Injuries definitely could have played a hand in the results.

I look back at 2005 and see what our pitchers did during the playoffs.  Four consecutive complete games in ALCS, and even in the WS they went deep into games.  I know it's not fair to compare that crew to this year's, but the starting pitching was very disappointing.  My guess is that there had to be some injuries and/or fatigue.  Although I think Cease's struggles were primarily mental.

18 minutes ago, hogan873 said:

Good point.  Injuries definitely could have played a hand in the results.

I look back at 2005 and see what our pitchers did during the playoffs.  Four consecutive complete games in ALCS, and even in the WS they went deep into games.  I know it's not fair to compare that crew to this year's, but the starting pitching was very disappointing.  My guess is that there had to be some injuries and/or fatigue.  Although I think Cease's struggles were primarily mental.

Agreed. The pitchers did not look the same. The performance was very disappointing.

3 hours ago, zisk said:

One guy who kind of escaped being blasted was Kopech. He really didn't pitch well for the last 3 months. He is the key

to next years team. 

It's been obvious for a while that he is tipping something. 

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

It's been obvious for a while that he is tipping something. 

I couldn't be less concerned about Kopech's ability or performance as a reliever.  Dude is a SP, and he has the ability to be an elite one.  He can probably be a top 10 SP in the league even if everything doesn't click.

I have two concerns - 1) health, which I worry about with every pitcher; and 2) the Sox piss-poor management of him in 2021.  I don't think he's set up to pitch 180+ innings next year. Yes, I know a few vocal posters will disagree, but its not easy to go from 70 innings to 180+ after not pitching for 2 seasons.  I think he'll start next year, but they're going to need to play some games with his innings at some point.  For a rotation that is going to need him at all junctures, that's not ideal. I think they need to bring in a veteran SP assuming Sox extend and Rodon rejects QO.  

8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It's been obvious for a while that he is tipping something. 

He looked so much better in a recent spot start. I also wonder if he just has an easier time preparing for starting.

1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said:

I couldn't be less concerned about Kopech's ability or performance as a reliever.  Dude is a SP, and he has the ability to be an elite one.  He can probably be a top 10 SP in the league even if everything doesn't click.

I have two concerns - 1) health, which I worry about with every pitcher; and 2) the Sox piss-poor management of him in 2021.  I don't think he's set up to pitch 180+ innings next year. Yes, I know a few vocal posters will disagree, but its not easy to go from 70 innings to 180+ after not pitching for 2 seasons.  I think he'll start next year, but they're going to need to play some games with his innings at some point.  For a rotation that is going to need him at all junctures, that's not ideal. I think they need to bring in a veteran SP assuming Sox extend and Rodon rejects QO.  

I agree with all of this. However, I still disagree it was due to mismanagement this year. It was due to the injury and the innings it took away from his year.  He currently should not be a full time, 180 innings pitcher next year. could it happen? sure, but it would be taking a big risk. They will need to skip starts or limit innings somehow next year.

Just now, ptatc said:

I agree with all of this. However, I still disagree it was due to mismanagement this year. It was due to the injury and the innings it took away from his year.  He currently should not be a full time, 180 innings pitcher next year. could it happen? sure, but it would be taking a big risk. They will need to skip starts or limit innings somehow next year.

I don't know how anyone can look at how the Sox used Kopech this year and not call it blatant mis-management.  It was terrible.  But to each their own.  

Just now, ptatc said:

I agree with all of this. However, I still disagree it was due to mismanagement this year. It was due to the injury and the innings it took away from his year.  He currently should not be a full time, 180 innings pitcher next year. could it happen? sure, but it would be taking a big risk. They will need to skip starts or limit innings somehow next year.

Can't they theoretically have him do some work right now to get his arm more "innings"? Have him throw a couple simulated games. 

Soxtalk: Kopech should have been managed differently to better prepare him for success as a starter in 2022.

Also Soxtalk: Sox should have been more aggressive in chasing HFA against Houston.

7 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I couldn't be less concerned about Kopech's ability or performance as a reliever.  Dude is a SP, and he has the ability to be an elite one.  He can probably be a top 10 SP in the league even if everything doesn't click.

I have two concerns - 1) health, which I worry about with every pitcher; and 2) the Sox piss-poor management of him in 2021.  I don't think he's set up to pitch 180+ innings next year. Yes, I know a few vocal posters will disagree, but its not easy to go from 70 innings to 180+ after not pitching for 2 seasons.  I think he'll start next year, but they're going to need to play some games with his innings at some point.  For a rotation that is going to need him at all junctures, that's not ideal. I think they need to bring in a veteran SP assuming Sox extend and Rodon rejects QO.  

He was doing exactly what they wanted him to do until he got hurt.

Just now, ron883 said:

Can't they theoretically have him do some work right now to get his arm more "innings"? Have him throw a couple simulated games. 

That's true. It's a good idea unless there was a lingering injury that effected his performance down the stretch and he needs it to recover.

Just now, CentralChamps21 said:

Soxtalk: Kopech should have been managed differently to better prepare him for success as a starter in 2022.

Also Soxtalk: Sox should have been more aggressive in chasing HFA against Houston.

I keep seeing this sentiment from people that haven't actually thought it through. They completely ignore injuries, workloads, and other behind the scenes things that we as fans would have no idea about. It's short sighted thinking for the most part. 

2 minutes ago, CentralChamps21 said:

Soxtalk: Kopech should have been managed differently to better prepare him for success as a starter in 2022.

Also Soxtalk: Sox should have been more aggressive in chasing HFA against Houston.

I agree, pitching Kopech in more starts down the stretch was a solid idea to help go for HFA and to build up his arm. That’s exactly what they should have done.

Just now, ron883 said:

I keep seeing this sentiment from people that haven't actually thought it through. They completely ignore injuries, workloads, and other behind the scenes things that we as fans would have no idea about. It's short sighted thinking for the most part. 

That extra rest worked out great though.

Just now, Balta1701 said:

That extra rest worked out great though.

Yes Balta, we all know you would have managed the team better than TLR. You know the inner workings of the club, how everybody was feeling, the plans upper management had for players, etc. If only we had you and your infinite wisdom (hindsight) running the club. Sox would have 105+ wins 

Kopech doesn't have to throw 180 innings next year but there is no reason he can't throw 150. It's not like he's a 21 or 22 year old kid. He'll be 26. It's go time. There's no reason to hold him back. Hell with the way he pitches he'll probably be a five and dive guy anyway. 

Just now, ron883 said:

Yes Balta, we all know you would have managed the team better than TLR. You know the inner workings of the club, how everybody was feeling, the plans upper management had for players, etc. If only we had you and your infinite wisdom (hindsight) running the club. Sox would have 105+ wins 

And now because they got embarrassed by following the strategy you were endorsing, you’re left with trying to ridicule hypocriticals that are somehow worse than what we just watched.

1 minute ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Kopech doesn't have to throw 180 innings next year but there is no reason he can't throw 150. It's not like he's a 21 or 22 year old kid. He'll be 26. It's go time. There's no reason to hold him back. Hell with the way he pitches he'll probably be a five and dive guy anyway. 

70 to 150 is a big jump.

22 minutes ago, CentralChamps21 said:

Soxtalk: Kopech should have been managed differently to better prepare him for success as a starter in 2022.

Also Soxtalk: Sox should have been more aggressive in chasing HFA against Houston.

Those aren't the contradictory statements you think they are. 

Lance Lynn threw 157 innings this year. Kopech could throw 150 with some dodger-like IL time and nobody would say he didn't throw a full season.

I have had a few days to decompress and calm down. As one of the resident "Optimists" on this board, this season is the biggest failure I can remember.
2000 stung, but the talent level in pitching this year was far superior.

3 things I see as Absolutely necessary items to address:

-Lynn MUST go on a conditioning program. The 60 to full season jump affected him more than anyone else. Love his fire, but he needs to put the work in this offseason and be sustainable next year. Without him being effective come October, the season is already at risk.  

-2 Fielding fundamentals mini-camps. I can't stress this enough. Do an optional one in December/January, and then make a mandatory camp a couple days before spring training. I really hope this comes with a new manager (doubtful), but at the very least ALL the fielders need to tighten up and have video/tactical plans clearly outlined. I know this is a huge ask and prima donna attitudes will reign, but poor alignment/shifts, lazy technique, and improper cut off man/relays destroyed this team against Houston. Embarrassing and unacceptable. 

- Make analytical FA signings/trades, not splashy ones. This team has star power and is situated very well the next 2 seasons. The RF target needs to be LH and launch angle focused and the 2B ideally has some speed, pop and most importantly is defensively above average. these players can be bought (Semien, Conforto, etc...) but knowing payroll and escalations going forward, I really would love to see a deeper effort put into savvy moves. Eaton was exactly the WRONG type of move, and I really wish for Hahn to get some outside consultant help if needed. 

I think if those items are addressed the team stands a much better chance to enhance the already solid team. 
I expect the rotation of Gio, Lynn, Cease, Keuchel & Kopech to be set, but a 6th starter HAS to be in the works as well (since Keuchel & Kopech will be on inning limits).

36 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I don't know how anyone can look at how the Sox used Kopech this year and not call it blatant mis-management.  It was terrible.  But to each their own.  

Yep to each his own. I look at it differently. It was a good plan derailed by injury, unless they could have predicted the injury.

 

I understand why Kopech wants to start and that a starter generally makes more money than most bullpen pitchers.  I also understand that Sox fans want a stud in the rotation . However, Kopech  also profiles as an all-out 100 mph max effort pitcher that could be even more effective at the end of games rather than at the beginning. .  He could easily  develop into a premier Closer and  there are several advantages to that, the most important being potential  career longevity ( recall the career of Goose Gossage) .

I have always thought that  the best path for Kopech was in the bullpen with the ultimate goal of being a  lock-down Closer. That would pretty much resolve virtually all the issues about his innings usage. It would also have made it more clear that he should have been the 8th inning guy moving forward and thus, no need to give up another top reliever prospect plus Madrigal....to get an 8th inning guy.  Now Hahn has an 8th ninning guy (Kimbrel) plus a guy who they want to start games in 2022, but not sure how many or for how long.