4 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

 

Good gracious, that long term contract is way ugly on the back end....like so many are.

1 hour ago, wegner said:

Good gracious, that long term contract is way ugly on the back end....like so many are.

The Sox got crushed for missing Harper and Machado, but the back ends of those contracts will be pug fugly.

Edited November 5, 20214 yr by ron883

6 hours ago, ron883 said:

The Sox got crushed for missing Harper and Machado, but the back ends of those contracts will be pug fugly.

Actually the front end results don't look to good either as both teams have yet to win their division, and neither made the playoffs in 2021.

The one we missed out on was Wheeler and the Sox had the higher offer only to be trumped by Wheeler's wife who wanted to stay out east.

Can't say I blame him.

 

49 minutes ago, A-Train to 35th said:

Actually the front end results don't look to good either as both teams have yet to win their division, and neither made the playoffs in 2021.

The one we missed out on was Wheeler and the Sox had the higher offer only to be trumped by Wheeler's wife who wanted to stay out east.

Can't say I blame him.

With the Phillies Bryce Harper has a .958 OPS, 83 home runs in 3 seasons. Led the NL in OPS in 2021, led in walks in 2020. Hasn’t been hurt, has shown better consistency than we saw in Washington. Those front end results look dynamite. You can’t judge the Harper deal on whether the team made the playoffs and then judge the Wheeler deal on how well he has pitched.

6 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

With the Phillies Bryce Harper has a .958 OPS, 83 home runs in 3 seasons. Led the NL in OPS in 2021, led in walks in 2020. Hasn’t been hurt, has shown better consistency than we saw in Washington. Those front end results look dynamite. You can’t judge the Harper deal on whether the team made the playoffs and then judge the Wheeler deal on how well he has pitched.

Looks like he judged the wheeler deal on the hotness on his wife

8 hours ago, ron883 said:

The Sox got crushed for missing Harper and Machado, but the back ends of those contracts will be pug fugly.

Yep.

9 hours ago, ron883 said:

The Sox got crushed for missing Harper and Machado, but the back ends of those contracts will be pug fugly.

The Mariners signed a way worse contract for Cano than either of those, Cano was 4-5 years older than either of those. That seems to have worked out in a tolerable way for those Mariners.

9 hours ago, ron883 said:

The Sox got crushed for missing Harper and Machado, but the back ends of those contracts will be pug fugly.

Most superstar contracts will look bad the last couple of years. That is the tax you pay. If you aren’t willing to pay it, you don’t sign the premium guys. The story with when they signed Carlton Fisk was Roland Hemond figured he had 3 years left, but they had to give him 4 or 5 to get him to sign. They were willing to do that, and that one actually worked way better than hoped. 
 

BTW, Keith Law is out with his best free agent list, and says he might give Kimbrel 1 year $10 million to get the magic back. I don’t think he would be that far off on MLB front office thinking. If the Sox pick up the option to trade him, they are going to be dissatisfied with the offers.

9 hours ago, ron883 said:

The Sox got crushed for missing Harper and Machado, but the back ends of those contracts will be pug fugly.

True...although I think it was Charles Barkley talking about those types of contracts (in the NBA) and pointed out that the money guys are getting paid at the end of those types of contracts is almost always money being paid to you for what you HAVE done...not what you are able to do at that moment.  He is right...so it may be ugly at that moment for the organization but if the players were lighting it up during their primes...the organization got what it wanted. 

2 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

Looks like he judged the wheeler deal on the hotness on his wife

Which is an improvement over his usual posts, sadly.

43 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Most superstar contracts will look bad the last couple of years. That is the tax you pay. If you aren’t willing to pay it, you don’t sign the premium guys. The story with when they signed Carlton Fisk was Roland Hemond figured he had 3 years left, but they had to give him 4 or 5 to get him to sign. They were willing to do that, and that one actually worked way better than hoped. 
 

BTW, Keith Law is out with his best free agent list, and says he might give Kimbrel 1 year $10 million to get the magic back. I don’t think he would be that far off on MLB front office thinking. If the Sox pick up the option to trade him, they are going to be dissatisfied with the offers.

the question for them then is do you pay $2 mill and the roster spot +$14 mill savings, or pay an additional $4mill for some value back, $10 mill in savings and a roster spot. I don't think they are wrong if they eat it. and if they go 50/50 they could probably find very good value.

in regards to harper and machado contracts I was against signing them at the time. I felt if you were going to spend that kind of money on a player the player shouldn't have a lot of question marks. I wanted Arenado (moncada was at 2b at the time) or betts that were about to be free agents instead. Unfortunately arenado re-signed and betts was traded and re-signed. I expressed these opinions on another sox board. 

Machado's warts was his attitude and lack of hustle. Harper's was that you signing him on what he could be but really hadn't done yet (hadn't drove in 100 runs at the time or did it once, his stats did not match up to Abreu's at the time). Machado still has these issues. Harper has since lived up to his potential.

1 minute ago, kleedawg said:

in regards to harper and machado contracts I was against signing them at the time. I felt if you were going to spend that kind of money on a player the player shouldn't have a lot of question marks. I wanted Arenado (moncada was at 2b at the time) or betts that were about to be free agents instead. Unfortunately arenado re-signed and betts was traded and re-signed. I expressed these opinions on another sox board. 

Machado's warts was his attitude and lack of hustle. Harper's was that you signing him on what he could be but really hadn't done yet (hadn't drove in 100 runs at the time or did it once, his stats did not match up to Abreu's at the time). Machado still has these issues. Harper has since lived up to his potential.

Sox could use a left handed hitting RF. A probable HOFer in his prime would have been nice.

57 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Most superstar contracts will look bad the last couple of years. That is the tax you pay. If you aren’t willing to pay it, you don’t sign the premium guys. The story with when they signed Carlton Fisk was Roland Hemond figured he had 3 years left, but they had to give him 4 or 5 to get him to sign. They were willing to do that, and that one actually worked way better than hoped. 
 

BTW, Keith Law is out with his best free agent list, and says he might give Kimbrel 1 year $10 million to get the magic back. I don’t think he would be that far off on MLB front office thinking. If the Sox pick up the option to trade him, they are going to be dissatisfied with the offers.

If the White Sox pick up Kimbrel's option, they already know who the suitors are IMO. I don't think it'll be that hard for Hahn to blame his struggles on the dugout and get him moved for something. 

6 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

If the White Sox pick up Kimbrel's option, they already know who the suitors are IMO. I don't think it'll be that hard for Hahn to blame his struggles on the dugout and get him moved for something. 

Law mentioned that his stuff and command have taken a step back. I just don’t see a team giving up something valuable for the right to pay him $16 million in 2022. I was never against the Sox getting him. I didn’t like what they gave up, but other than injury, this trade pretty much turned into worst case scenario.

I guess it is possible they would rather trade him for someone who will never get past A ball than pay him another $2 million.

Edited November 5, 20214 yr by Dick Allen

18 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

If the White Sox pick up Kimbrel's option, they already know who the suitors are IMO. I don't think it'll be that hard for Hahn to blame his struggles on the dugout and get him moved for something. 

I doubt it will actually work this way, but if I were an opposing GM of say the Rays, I’d tell Hahn today “of course we will trade for him”. 2 weeks from now that would become “we still want him but ownership wouldn’t let us add that money without a CBA”, and then in March it would turn into “we just couldn’t anticipate the CBA would be structure like this and that player is no longer a fit for us.”

Just now, Balta1701 said:

I doubt it will actually work this way, but if I were an opposing GM of say the Rays, I’d tell Hahn today “of course we will trade for him”. 2 weeks from now that would become “we still want him but ownership wouldn’t let us add that money without a CBA”, and then in March it would turn into “we just couldn’t anticipate the CBA would be structure like this and that player is no longer a fit for us.”

cool story. Love soxtalk negotiating fanfic. This benefits the Rays how?

8 minutes ago, bmags said:

cool story. Love soxtalk negotiating fanfic. This benefits the Rays how?

White Sox are either hurt on the FA market or have to sweeten their offer to clear his salary. 

The underlying point is that the situation in a hypothetical is very different from the situation after the option is picked up. Once that happens, the White sox’s negotiating position is fundamentally different. The White Sox are the team taking on all the risk at the moment they say yes, no one else is.

I think if Kimbrel was traded to a different team at the deadline, became a set up guy, and performed the exact same as he did for the White Sox, if Liam Hendriks Tarot card reader told him he needed to give up pitching and become a pro surfer, there would be no one here thinking acquing Kimbrel,  paying him $16 million and giving up a good player would make any sense. 

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

White Sox are either hurt on the FA market or have to sweeten their offer to clear his salary. 

The underlying point is that the situation in a hypothetical is very different from the situation after the option is picked up. Once that happens, the White sox’s negotiating position is fundamentally different.

It is different,  and you did make a good point. Deals get nixed by ownership after basically being done deals often. It isn't worth the risk to me unless you are willing and prepared to have him on the roster, which to me means having a payroll  at least $16 million higher than you were budgeting.

Edited November 5, 20214 yr by Dick Allen

44 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Sox could use a left handed hitting RF. A probable HOFer in his prime would have been nice.

Sox could use a switch hitting RF that has never played the position and is likely heading into his post-peak years. Might even get him for 3 years of Kimbrel money. I'm not being sarcastic - I've come to the conclusion that S. Marte should be the Sox' primary FA target.

Edited November 5, 20214 yr by FoxForce2

The sox are only picking up Kimbrel's option if they know there are multiple teams interested, or they're OK paying him $16M to be in the bullpen.  They aren't relying on the fucking Rays to acquire him and if they don't all their plans are fucked.  Teams don't operate this way. 

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

The Mariners signed a way worse contract for Cano than either of those, Cano was 4-5 years older than either of those. That seems to have worked out in a tolerable way for those Mariners.

And yet, the mariners traded his contract and got a top prospect in return 

1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said:

The sox are only picking up Kimbrel's option if they know there are multiple teams interested, or they're OK paying him $16M to be in the bullpen.  They aren't relying on the fucking Rays to acquire him and if they don't all their plans are fucked.  Teams don't operate this way. 

This organization once publicly blamed a deal not happening on a Tweet. The idea that the same people could have perfect confidence in a trade happening maybe 5 months and a lockout in advance just seems like a fantasy to me.

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

And yet, the mariners traded his contract and got a top prospect in return 

As I said, it was tolerable for them.