Kimbrel traded for AJ Pollock

[FoxForce2]

1 hour ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

1.With Pollock, I think some here are being a bit irrationally exuberant.
2.Yes, Pollock can play OF, but he's a LF/CF, not a RF.
3.He's oft-injured,
4.and he's old.
5.So while its "better" that he's here than Kimbrel being here, he's not exactly an ideal fit.

So, will others currently throwing roses at RH's feet for this move likewise eat crow if/when Pollock plays poorly, or his a poor fit, or gets injured?

We'll see.

1. Having gone so many years without a lock-down, or even solid RF, the fans would be expected to be at least somewhat excited about getting a real outfielder. Now if he doesn't make the AS team this year, some could very well go bitter about the deal. People tend to exaggerate when dealing with their sports teams.
2. Competent range, vision and glove. An arm that can make the throws to the cut-off man with at least some mustard. Roberto Clemente he ain't. But he's not Adam Dunn either.
3. Yep and not unlike Engel in that regard.
4. Hey! I resemble that remark.
5. Given the circumstances, who would be ideal?

There are different ways of evaluating Hahn's performance on this entire deal of Madrigal/Heuer ---> Kimbrel ---> Pollock. There are doubtless any number of variables that have come into play that we, as fans, don't know about. JR may very well have pulled his ass out the fire with this move, but both of the trades made/make some sense when looked at in the immediate conditions of their making. I still say we needed a fireman/set-up reliever rather than a closer last year.
As for "We'll see" - isn't that almost always the case in deals like this?

Edited April 2, 2022 by FoxForce2

[Two-Gun Pete]

16 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

1. Look I know you wanted Suzuki but let it go, just like you should let go of picking up Kimbrel's option . I agree with you there. I thought it was about pride and would take a few different moves to make that work. But in the end it made the team better defensively and depth wise. Kimbrel,. in a bad role didn't accomplish any of those things.

2. For less cash a better fit ? Like who ? This better fit was what , LH, younger , cost less ,had a good arm,played RF more in the past, doesn't get hurt and could play good defense ? Because that's what you are suggesting.

1. RH made bad decisions that lead to him making other bad decisions this offseason. This move is just a "meh," in my view.

2. To your questions, Joc Pederson is LH, younger, costs ~$9MM less, has played RF more than Pollock, doesn't get hurt as much as Pollock, and can play good defense. With the ~$9MM in savings, they also could have acquired a better SP than Velasquez, instead of trading from a weak MiLB system to maybe get a SP from Oakland, and then hope he doesn't turn into a turd when he leaves their pitcher-friendly park.

And as you mentioned, for a bit more AAV than Pollock, they could have had Suzuki.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[ptatc]

17 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Yeah, I have zero doubt that Kimbrel has a big season and a significant portion of Sox fans is pissed about it at some point. 

Agreed. I see him doing well in LA.

[pcq]

43 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

Yeah that didn’t happen when he was here at least. Him booting that ball in game 2 in Oakland was a big reason why the Sox lost that game (and subsequently the series). Not to mention he seemingly can’t stay healthy. Obviously it wasn’t a good trade but some of you act like is a star. He is not.

Ok Vegas who starts more games Mads or AJP. 

[ptatc]

12 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

1. RH made bad decisions that lead to him making other bad decisions this offseason. This move is just a "meh," in my view.

2. Joc Pederson is LH, younger, costs ~$9MM less, has played RF more than Pollock, doesn't get hurt as much as Pollock, and can play good defense. With the ~$9MM in savings, they also could have acquired a better SP than Velasquez, instead of trading from a weak MiLB system to maybe get a SP from Oakland, and then hope he doesn't turn into a turd when he leaves their pitcher-friendly park.

And as you mentioned, for a bit more AAV than Pollock, they could have had Suzuki.

Isn't the Suzuki deal 5 years for around 100 including the posting fee?

I would not have signed an unknown for 5 years when you are trying to win.

Edited April 2, 2022 by ptatc

[ptatc]

Just now, pcq said:

Ok Vegas who starts more games Mads or AJP. 

Good one. I'll go with Madrigal as TLR likes to rest players more even when they are healthy. 

[ptatc]

3 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

1. RH made bad decisions that lead to him making other bad decisions this offseason. This move is just a "meh," in my view.

2. Joc Pederson is LH, younger, costs ~$9MM less, has played RF more than Pollock, doesn't get hurt as much as Pollock, and can play good defense. With the ~$9MM in savings, they also could have acquired a better SP than Velasquez, instead of trading from a weak MiLB system to maybe get a SP from Oakland, and then hope he doesn't turn into a turd when he leaves their pitcher-friendly park.

And as you mentioned, for a bit more AAV than Pollock, they could have had Suzuki.

For everyone who thinks TLR runs the team, did the Sox prefer AJP because TLR knew him from Arizona and wanted him?

[Two-Gun Pete]

Just now, ptatc said:

For everyone who thinks TLR runs the team, did the Sox prefer AJP because TLR knew him from Arizona and wanted him?

That's not a bad thought, TBH.

[Two-Gun Pete]

8 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Isn't the Suzuki deal 5 years for around 100 jncluding thebposting fee?

I would not have signed an unknown for 5 years when you are trying to win.

5/$85MM, + the posting fee for a 27 year old that better scouting departments than the SOX's all wanted.

So yes, I admit there are risks with this or any FA acquisition. But I would rather gamble on a 27 year old who performed to a star level, and who was pursued by better and smarter FOs than this one.

[FoxForce2]

7 minutes ago, ptatc said:

For everyone who thinks TLR runs the team, did the Sox prefer AJP because TLR knew him from Arizona and wanted him?

Not unlikely, almost certain that the move was at least run by him at some point.

[FoxForce2]

1 minute ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

5/$85MM, + the posting fee for a 27 year old that better scouting departments than the SOX's all wanted.

So yes, I admit there are risks with this or any FA acquisition. But I would rather gamble on a 27 year old who performed to a star level, and who was pursued by better and smarter FOs than this one.

Sign him for 5 - what to do with Cespedes/Colas? The Cuban Connection is strong with this team.

[Two-Gun Pete]

1 minute ago, FoxForce2 said:

Sign him for 5 - what to do with Cespedes/Colas? The Cuban Connection is strong with this team.

Most likely, watch them become the next Micker Adolfo.

Or, if either make The Show, move one to LF, move Eloy to DH, have really, really good OF defense for a fucking change, and trade whoever doesn't have a spot.

[Chicago White Sox]

9 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

5/$85MM, + the posting fee for a 27 year old that better scouting departments than the SOX's all wanted.

So yes, I admit there are risks with this or any FA acquisition. But I would rather gamble on a 27 year old who performed to a star level, and who was pursued by better and smarter FOs than this one.

Lol…I love you use the “better and smarter FOs” point to support a Suzuki signing, but ignore it completely when it came to a Kimbrel acquisition.

[Two-Gun Pete]

3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Lol…I love you use the “better and smarter FOs” point to support a Suzuki signing, but ignore it completely when it came to a Kimbrel acquisition.

I knew you'd come up with this.

Key difference:

The SOX have basically needed a RFer since Jermaine Dye lost his mobility. The SOX had zero need for an expensive closer the heartbeat they acquired Hendriks.

 

See? One move would have solved a dire need, while we've already seen the other become an abject failure at conception. One could help the team now and for 4 years beyond that, the other actively hurt this team. 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[FoxForce2]

3 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Most likely, watch them become the next Micker Adolfo.

Or, if either make The Show, move one to LF, move Eloy to DH, have really, really good OF defense for a fucking change, and trade whoever doesn't have a spot.

We hear a lot about Cespedes arm but not much about how well he fields his position - his brother had a magnum of an arm, but was no better than average in field-play and erratic at that. Lot of swing-and-miss with YC so far as well. 
It's yet another 'we'll see', but again, the Sox are pretty well locked in with Cespedes/Colas for several reasons. I have no doubt that Hahn had this in the forefront of his mind when looking at the RF situation and going for a nearer term solution than what Suzuki's contract would entail. Even then - what to do with Kimbrel? How many in the Sox camp have real experience with Japanese players anyway? 

[Two-Gun Pete]

10 minutes ago, FoxForce2 said:

We hear a lot about Cespedes arm but not much about how well he fields his position - his brother had a magnum of an arm, but was no better than average in field-play and erratic at that. Lot of swing-and-miss with YC so far as well. 
It's yet another 'we'll see', but again, the Sox are pretty well locked in with Cespedes/Colas for several reasons. I have no doubt that Hahn had this in the forefront of his mind when looking at the RF situation and going for a nearer term solution than what Suzuki's contract would entail. Even then - what to do with Kimbrel? How many in the Sox camp have real experience with Japanese players anyway? 

I'm sure they are locked into these two.

Had this team's window appeared to be open longer, then perhaps those two could be part of the window's calculus. But we really don't know enough about either to make a decision at this point, insofar as whether either can be a contributor BEFORE Giolito and TA take better contracts elsewhere. 

I've maintained that this org has needed a RFer since JD lost his ability to move.

Whats more, the current team in this window has needed a RF since before they stupidly traded for Mazara, or signed Eaton (who was younger than Pollock when he returned here), when they cut Eaton, at the TDL, and this offseason.

This current group has needed a RFer for NOW, not wait for some 'spects to maybe make it. And yes, I admit there is some risk with the player Id preferred, but he's a better risk for 2022 than either Cespedes or Colas.

We can worry about 2023 or 2024 when they come, and likely, TA and Giolito are gone or on their way out.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[Chicago White Sox]

20 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

I knew you'd come up with this.

Key difference:

The SOX have basically needed a RFer since Jermaine Dye lost his mobility. The SOX had zero need for an expensive closer the heartbeat they acquired Hendriks.

 

See? One move would have solved a dire need, while we've already seen the other become an abject failure at conception. One could help the team now and for 4 years beyond that, the other actively hurt this team. 

Again, you are moving the goalposts here.  You argued both that Kimbrel was clearly going to be a disaster and that we didn’t need a closer in the first place.  We debated that first point for weeks and you refused to acknowledge the fact the Dodgers & Rays being highly interested in Kimbrel mattered at all.

Now, because a post Theo Cubs front office paid significant dollars for Suzuki is proof that he would have been a smart addition?  What exactly have the Cubs done to demonstrate this elite scouting ability?  Wasn’t the reason they had to rebuild is because they failed to create a pipeline of young talent beyond their original core?  Also, what other teams were interested in Suzuki that are tremendous at scouting?

[chw42]

55 minutes ago, ptatc said:

For everyone who thinks TLR runs the team, did the Sox prefer AJP because TLR knew him from Arizona and wanted him?

When you consider that there were rumors of a Kimbrel for Meadows swap where the Sox could have saved more money, your theory has some legs.

[Two-Gun Pete]

12 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Again, you are moving the goalposts here.  You argued both that Kimbrel was clearly going to be a disaster and that we didn’t need a closer in the first place.  We debated that first point for weeks and you refused to acknowledge the fact the Dodgers & Rays being highly interested in Kimbrel mattered at all.

No, not moving the goalposts. You're just defending an incorrect viewpoint for some unknown reason, rather than accepting that that view was wrong, and moving on.

So:

Where was the need for a closer? 

The answer was that there was none, and they should have spent LESS time looking at Kimbrel than a 95 year old impotent man should look at condoms.

And, we also covered LAD and TB's reasons for looking at Kimbrel: LAD had lowish fWAR out of their pen, and questionable health out of their pen at the TDL. Tampa uses the FUCK out of their RPs, and looks into pretty much every available RP. Both also had surpluses to market, while NO ONE wanted the SOX to trade from the 26 man.

 

On Suzuki, there has been a need for a RFer since JD lost his ability to run.

 

So once again, RF has been a DIRE need. Closer has not. The two situations are nothing alike. I'm not moving the goalposts, you're simply defending a viewpoint that is and was wrong.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[fathom]

With all due respect, I really hope Suzuki is a massive bust.  One, because I hate the Cubs.  Two, so I never have to read about him again on this site.  Lots of angst for a guy the Sox were never, ever linked to.

[ptatc]

59 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

5/$85MM, + the posting fee for a 27 year old that better scouting departments than the SOX's all wanted.

So yes, I admit there are risks with this or any FA acquisition. But I would rather gamble on a 27 year old who performed to a star level, and who was pursued by better and smarter FOs than this one.

Just because others wanted gim doesn't mean he fits into the Sox plan.

I know you think the Sox FO are idiots but signing a player is more than just who the better player may be.

The Cubs are in a totally different siutation.  If it takes a year fir Suzuki to acclimate its no big deal to them. They won't be good for probably 3 years. The Sox went to the international market to get colas and cespedas. They aren't looking to have a player for 5 years when they already have 2 players for the OF they will still be playing by then in Jimenez and Robert.

[Two-Gun Pete]

8 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Just because others wanted gim doesn't mean he fits into the Sox plan.

I know you think the Sox FO are idiots but signing a player is more than just who the better player may be.

The Cubs are in a totally different siutation.  If it takes a year fir Suzuki to acclimate its no big deal to them. They won't be good for probably 3 years. The Sox went to the international market to get colas and cespedas. 

The difference in the two teams' windows is a fair point.

But, Colas & Cespedes are prospects, and for as excited as we all once were on Adolfo, they're more likely to become Adolfo-level players than they are to become MLB contributors. Especially in the SOX's window, which I believe is only as long as Giolito is here. 

 

Insofar as market behaviors go, we can all agree that there has been a dire need for a RFer for ~15 or so years in this org. There also has been a dire need for a RFer during the entirety of this competitive window.

When there is market interest in a player at a position of need during a competitive window, it behooves a prudent person to at least look into that player. 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[SCCWS]

I like this move because we finally moved Kimbrel.  But I wonder who would be considered next in the depth chart after Hendricks? I would guess Bummer even though he has never actually saved a game.

[chw42]

2 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

I like this move because we finally moved Kimbrel.  But I wonder who would be considered next in the depth chart after Hendricks? I would guess Bummer even though he has never actually saved a game.

Graveman closed games last year for Seattle.

[ptatc]

13 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

The difference in the two teams' windows is a fair point.

But, Colas & Cespedes are prospects, and for as excited as we all once were on Adolfo, they're more likely to become Adolfo-level players than they are to become MLB contributors. Especially in the SOX's window, which I believe is only as long as Giolito is here. 

 

Insofar as market behaviors go, we can all agree that there has been a dire need for a RFer for ~15 or so years in this org. There also has been a dire need for a RFer during the entirety of this competitive window.

When there is market interest in a player at a position of need during a competitive window, it behooves a prudent person to at least look into that player. 

I don't disagree. However I think your obsession with the fact that the Sox haven't had a RF in 15 years is not that big of a deal. If there were multiple positions where they were lacking talent it would be one thing. But the fact that they have very few weaknesses is a good thing. Strength up the middle is more important than a RF. The fact that they have a really good hitting CF with outstanding defense negates that deficit to an extent. 

Edited April 2, 2022 by ptatc