What The Actual F# Is Wrong With This Team?

[Two-Gun Pete]

On 4/24/2022 at 1:38 AM, Tnetennba said:

Serious question.  
 

1st, the FO royally fucked up all offseason long, and made the team older, more injury-prone, more expensive, and worse at baseball. They did little-to-nothing to address the major issues with the roster, and created another hole by giving away ~5 fWAR from the rotation for free, and then not replacing the lost fWAR. Holding onto Kimbrel, then trading him for an ancient, oft-injured Pollock was a way to protect their egos and cover their asses for the dumb trade last TDL.

2nd, injuries.

3rd, either TLR's ego won't allow himself to empower his assistants to help him, or he's refusing assistance from the FO, or both. His player usage patterns suck. He's failing to use defensive subs when we're up late in games, and offensive subs when we're down late in games. Then, of course there's the Leury and Vaughn usage.

 

Lastly, because of all of the above, the roster has got to be disheartened. On the one hand, some KEY players signed long, cheap, team-friendly extensions. OTOH, the stupid FO gave away possibly the best SP in the AL for most of 2021 for free, and signed DFA candidates VV and Harrison.

 

I hope this turns around soon, somehow.

[ptatc]

10 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Katz said on the Score yesterday that he isn't involved with defensive positioning, which I found odd.

One would assume that the pitching coach would want to be able to communicate to the defense how [in general] a pitcher would approach an opponent, so that they can be best-placed to make plays. Either this is TLR's ego keeping Katz from being involved, or this is Katz being incompetent.

I can't decide which is worse.

I wouldn't think the pitching coach would be involved in that.

That's more the analytics and infield coach's job. 

They would know if the pitcher throws inside to the hitter his % of pulling it is x so move the infielder.

The pitching coach just works on how to pitch to the given hitter.

[Two-Gun Pete]

3 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I wouldn't think the pitching coach would be involved in that.

That's more the analytics and infield coach's job. 

They would know if the pitcher throws inside to the hitter his % of pulling it is x so move the infielder.

The pitching coach just works on how to pitch to the given hitter.

I would assume that the pitching coach would work in tandem with the other coaches to come up with a comprehensive run prevention plan, not isolate one coach from the others.

After all, if the pitching coach is working with the pitchers how to approach an opponent [in general], wouldn't the other coaches also want to know HOW we're going to pitch to our opponents? And given how shitty this team has been at defensive positioning, wouldn't you as an org WANT the pitching coach involved?

 

I would.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[ptatc]

16 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

I would assume that the pitching coach would work in tandem with the other coaches to come up with a comprehensive run prevention plan, not isolate one coach from the others.

After all, if the pitching coach is working with the pitchers how to approach an opponent [in general], wouldn't the other coaches also want to know HOW we're going to pitch to our opponents? And given how shitty this team has been at defensive positioning, wouldn't you as an org WANT the pitching coach involved?

 

I would.

Could be. I would think he has enough on his plate just working with the pitchers.

What happens after the ball is hit would be the purview of the others.

[CentralChamps21]

36 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Katz said on the Score yesterday that he isn't involved with defensive positioning, which I found odd.

One would assume that the pitching coach would want to be able to communicate to the defense how [in general] a pitcher would approach an opponent, so that they can be best-placed to make plays. Either this is TLR's ego keeping Katz from being involved, or this is Katz being incompetent.

I can't decide which is worse.

I wouldn't expect the pitching coach to be DIRECTLY involved with defensive positioning.

I would expect the pitching coach to tell the rest of the coaching staff what mix of pitches he expects the starting pitcher to be featuring based on the lineup he's facing.

I would expect someone else on the coaching staff to take that data to determine defensive positioning.

[The Mighty Mite]

3 hours ago, Quin said:

Depressingly, it's still a low hurdle.

- Charles Comiskey paid the players so poorly they got in with the mob.

- The other Comiskeys oversaw medocrity.

- The Allyns were ... eh? Didn't Arthur want to sell to Selig, who would move the the team to Milwaukee?

Veeck is basically the GOAT Sox owner, with a large gap between him and pick whoever you want for second place - which is either Jerry for winning in 2005 or Charles Comiskey for bringing the team here from St. Paul.

The Go Go era gave us 17 straight winning seasons and until  1960 was under the ownership of Grace and her son Chuck Comiskey. Grace died around 1957 and Chuck and sister Dorothy had a family feud with Veeck picking up the pieces in 59. We just happened to play runner up all the time to those great Yankee teams with Mantle, Berra, Ford, Skowron and Maris. At least we made to the WS in 59.

Veeck was a huckster who never had enough money plus he traded away a bunch of promising youngsters after 1959, Callison Romano, Battey and Mincher were gone and in came veterans like Sievers, Freese and Minnie Minoso who gave us hope but that's all.

The owner who had very good success was Arthur Allyn, the 3 best consecutive years in Sox history were in  63, 64, and 65 when the Sox rang up 94, 98 and 95 wins. We also almost won the pennant in 1967. Arthur sold to brother John and he ran out of money and we almost lost the Sox to Seattle in 1975 but Veeck came in at the last minute to keep the team in Chicago. 

Veeck and his syndicate barely had a pot to piss in and when free agency came around they couldn't compete with the big spenders. At least we had 1977 which as much fun as ever on the Southside. 1981 came around and brought us JR.

Edited April 26, 2022 by The Mighty Mite

[Two-Gun Pete]

2 hours ago, CentralChamps21 said:

I wouldn't expect the pitching coach to be DIRECTLY involved with defensive positioning.

I would expect the pitching coach to tell the rest of the coaching staff what mix of pitches he expects the starting pitcher to be featuring based on the lineup he's facing.

I would expect someone else on the coaching staff to take that data to determine defensive positioning.

And nor would I expect Katz to run the meeting that would determine defensive positioning. But I would expect it to be prudent to have him have input on some level.

That he has NO input is surprising to me.

[oldsox]

Veeck was awful.

[Angel Hernandez]

Not nearly time to give up but the possibility of having a shit season is real.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

The top two starters are/were hurt, two top hitters are hurt, the shortstop, catcher and first baseman are playing with their heads up their ass, the closer sucks, they're counting on young unproven players playing out of position, and the manager is making terrible decisions trying to turn chicken shit into chicken salad. Besides that, how was the play, Mrs Lincoln. 

[Colome's Hat]

This team will either go the way of the 2011 Sox or the 2011 Tigers.  Honestly, I think they go the way of the 2011 Tigers who got off to a pretty bad start and until the end of the season were mired in mediocrity.  Maybe a better example is last year's Braves.  On paper, this is the best team in the AL.  That being said games aren't played on paper.  They need to get healthy but this team is absolutely better than the Twins.  The Twins starting pitching is going to break down towards the end of the season.  There is nothing in the White Sox track record to say this.  Also a note on Dallas.  He wasn't great last night but he was good enough to win but the Sox defense let him down.  He has been better this year.  He may never find his 2015 or 2020 form again but he can be effective.  But especially with him, the defense has to do their part.  Abreu's error was completely inexcusable.  Keuchel is at his best when he has control over his pitches.  I can only imagine his mindset when he sees the Defensive trainwreck that this team has been over the past week and a half.  And it probably doesn't help him.

[JoeBatadatz]

Same problem as forever.  KW sitting on ol Uncle Jerry's lap.

KW (answering to any suggestion from JR): "Gee Uncle Jerry, I think that's a great idea!"

JR (answering to KW wanting to sign "his guy" of the month): "Kenny Boy, you're the EVP of baseball operations. Let RH know what we've decided".

[caulfield12]

Man, it’s a tough call which team’s fans should be more pissed off, White Sox after Buxton walk off or the Tigers fans after the walk off error that should have been caught by Grossman FIRST and at worst should have ended up with runners at second and third…but realistically should have been 1st and 3rd, two outs, Tigers still leading 4-3.

Sano ran up the back of the middle runner ala Leury, and the middle runner was caught helplessly between 2nd and 3rd with a decent throw from Haase.

As a fan, pitching to Buxton was close to indefensible, but that was just classic Harrelson meltdown mode out of Detroit…

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, JoeBatadatz said:

Same problem as forever.  KW sitting on ol Uncle Jerry's lap.

KW (answering to any suggestion from JR): "Gee Uncle Jerry, I think that's a great idea!"

JR (answering to KW wanting to sign "his guy" of the month): "Kenny Boy, you're the EVP of baseball operations. Let RH know what we've decided".

So basically a cast of 3-4 to blame for every move that goes wrong according to their personal narrative with nobody actually held accountable…so Sox-like.  Definitely not Soxy.

[HOFHurt35]

48 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

The top two starters are/were hurt, two top hitters are hurt, the shortstop, catcher and first baseman are playing with their heads up their ass, the closer sucks, they're counting on young unproven players playing out of position, and the manager is making terrible decisions trying to turn chicken shit into chicken salad. Besides that, how was the play, Mrs Lincoln. 

This sums it up. 

Plus the other biggest factor is their Hollywood SS isn't setting any table unless it's leading the league in errors 

Last year by some luck, LaRussa and Co were able to overcome all the injuries and slow start by many key pieces  But history isn't repeating itself here.   There is no Mercedes one month miracle happening.  

"The Core" needs to get healthy and play up to the hype in order to turn this around and make this a 90 win team as projected. 

I'm starting to have my doubts. 

[FoxForce2]

I realize it's a one-off, flash in April, but did anyone notice that Collins hit cleanup for the Jays last night? Who woulda thunk that?

[FoxForce2]

1 hour ago, Colome's Hat said:

On paper, this is the best team in the AL. 

That's a bold statement. Competitive yes - the best, no. Even on paper, the starters and fielding are either questionable or outright weak. As for the hitting, without specifically citing players, the Sox have been a ground ball hitting machine that has underperformed in run scoring since the break last year. Until this team can start hitting with RISP they're a paper tiger.
I mostly agree with your Keuchel take. He needs to be on a more defensive oriented team to provide best value. But even at that, his best value doesn't approach his contract number/condition.

[Colome's Hat]

9 minutes ago, FoxForce2 said:

That's a bold statement. Competitive yes - the best, no. Even on paper, the starters and fielding are either questionable or outright weak. As for the hitting, without specifically citing players, the Sox have been a ground ball hitting machine that has underperformed in run scoring since the break last year. Until this team can start hitting with RISP they're a paper tiger.
I mostly agree with your Keuchel take. He needs to be on a more defensive oriented team to provide best value. But even at that, his best value doesn't approach his contract number/condition.

I think the issue right now with ground balls is actually the baseball and many teams, including the White Sox are goign to have to find ways to adjust to this.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

1 hour ago, Colome's Hat said:

  On paper, this is the best team in the AL.  

It's the best collection of talent but it's not the best team.  

[Tnetennba]

29 minutes ago, FoxForce2 said:

I realize it's a one-off, flash in April, but did anyone notice that Collins hit cleanup for the Jays last night? Who woulda thunk that?

He was o-fer on the season with a bunch of K's before getting hot and launching a few bombs.  He's also exclusively DHed (afaik), which he wouldn't have done here.  I'm still 100% ok with the trade.

[Colome's Hat]

3 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

It's the best collection of talent but it's not the best team.  

That's why I said on paper.  On paper, the 05 White Sox weren't necessarily the best team.  

That being said, the amount of injuries this year have been catastrophic.  And I really hope people are now realizing the value of someone like Moncada.

[Tnetennba]

3 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

It's the best collection of talent but it's not the best team.  

The White Sox roster is a pretty darn good collection of talent.  Performance as a team on the field though is an entirely different story.

[FoxForce2]

1 minute ago, Tnetennba said:

He was o-fer on the season with a bunch of K's before getting hot and launching a few bombs.  He's also exclusively DHed (afaik), which he wouldn't have done here.  I'm still 100% ok with the trade.

Sure. I like McGuire and Collins was a drag on the roster. Still interesting to see him slotted cleanup on that team.

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

He was o-fer on the season with a bunch of K's before getting hot and launching a few bombs.  He's also exclusively DHed (afaik), which he wouldn't have done here.  I'm still 100% ok with the trade.

By that argument, 75% of the White Sox players have already had similar 0 for 10/11/12 stretches or whatever it was during in the first three weeks…0.4 fWAR definitely wouldn’t have been his value had he remained with the Sox.  Same thing with Luis Gonzalez.

In retrospect, it’s just so weird that we spent so much time worrying about Micker Adolfo’s fate when that isn’t even a Top 20 issue for the team right now.

Oh, for those days back. 

[caulfield12]

8 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

The White Sox roster is a pretty darn good collection of talent.  Performance as a team on the field though is an entirely different story.

Hard not to go with the Blue Jays…especially when the Sox can’t ever keep their core guys healthy. Performance/production matters a lot more than these dreams of potential and what could have been.

 

Somewhere, there’s a Rangers’ fan shouting to the heavens about letting #2/3 hitter Leury Garcia get away to the White Sox for Alex Rios nearly a decade ago now.  Well, at least a couple that are bemused.

Edited April 27, 2022 by caulfield12