40 minutes ago, turnin' two said:

Liam bears some responsibility for this too.  That stat is 9th and later.  That's a lot of Liam.  Also, his ERA in the second half is nearly 4.  Not exactly elite.  

He's blown 4 saves all year. He's been shaky at times probably because he hasn't had the stuff he's had in past years but I don't think you can put the blame on him for the bullpen not performing. Kelly's been awful, Bummer has been injured for most of the year, Graveman's been mediocre ever since May. Diekman walks everyone. Those are the other 4 guys being paid a lot of money to perform and they're not even close to earning their money. 

2 hours ago, southsideirish71 said:

I am glad we had to sweeten the deal to take a crappy lefty off Bostons hands.  Hahn must be a quick invite by friends at poker night.  

It’s insane.  Smart organizations build depth and trade superfluous mediocre pieces for guys with upside (see Dodgers trading guys like Mitch White for Nick Frasso).  We throw in guys who, while not stars, can help organizational depth in case of injuries or just so you can save money on your bullpen and not spend $9m on fucking Joe Kelly for trash.

7 minutes ago, chw42 said:

He's blown 4 saves all year. He's been shaky at times probably because he hasn't had the stuff he's had in past years but I don't think you can put the blame on him for the bullpen not performing. Kelly's been awful, Bummer has been injured for most of the year, Graveman's been mediocre ever since May. Diekman walks everyone. Those are the other 4 guys being paid a lot of money to perform and they're not even close to earning their money. 

It would be nice if the highest paid closer in the league was the best closer in the league, but that's often not how it works - the best closer in the league is often a guy teams develop internally, he peaks for a couple years, and then moves on as a free agent or is traded to the Padres. Often that guy remains fairly good for a number of years, but usually his best years are the fireballing years in his mid to late 20s. 

I'd like Hendriks to be the best closer in the league, but with how things work, "very good" is probably ok, and he's in "Very good" for now as long as he's healthy. The best closer in the league would have 2 fewer BS/2 more saves than he has, and even then a decent team probably turns one of those into a win.

2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Yep, at that point they'd burned their best arms.  But if they would have just gone to Reylo in the 7th, Sox probably win that game in regulation and pen isn't totally fried for today.

Oh well. Is what it is is.  

Seeing what Graveman came into the game with it gave me the feeling they were trying to skip him, hence the weird pen usage early.  Dude had nothing.

1 hour ago, ScooterMcGuire said:

Looks like there's a lot of cheap and good pens out there...

And it's not a surprise to see some of the teams including in that area of the graph...Tampa, Minny, Cleveland, San Fran, St. Louis, Milwaukee....all franchises that over the last decade + have shown they are usually ahead of the curve on things, certainly much moreso than the Sox. 

Pg 7 of this thread is a doozy.

18 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Seeing what Graveman came into the game with it gave me the feeling they were trying to skip him, hence the weird pen usage early.  Dude had nothing.

I agree, they didn’t just forget about him in the 7th-8th. Only used in the 10th because Diekman, Ruiz and Banks were the options remaining, so you go with the 80%-90% guy over the other weaker options. 

Sad thing is Cleveland played five games over the four day weekend (Sox three), down two starters and also played a 15 inning game and yet still managed to piece it all together and win five of the past six games.

The Sox had a rested bullpen beyond Vince Velasquez but couldn’t take advantage.

41 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

It would be nice if the highest paid closer in the league was the best closer in the league, but that's often not how it works - the best closer in the league is often a guy teams develop internally, he peaks for a couple years, and then moves on as a free agent or is traded to the Padres. Often that guy remains fairly good for a number of years, but usually his best years are the fireballing years in his mid to late 20s. 

I'd like Hendriks to be the best closer in the league, but with how things work, "very good" is probably ok, and he's in "Very good" for now as long as he's healthy. The best closer in the league would have 2 fewer BS/2 more saves than he has, and even then a decent team probably turns one of those into a win.

I'd say Clase is the best closer in the league and even he has blown 4 saves this year although the blown save stat isn't the best way to evaluate closers. Clase has probably been twice the pitcher Liam has this year. 

Graveman's supposed to be our 8th inning guy, but he isn't anywhere close to a lock-down reliever; of course, he wasn't with the Astros last year either.   But the Sox gave him a big fat raise and signed up for 3 years.

1 hour ago, chw42 said:

The Sox thought they discovered a market inefficiency by overpaying relievers. It's actually hilarious. 

Overpaying relievers on the open market and drafting relievers. It makes you want to cry.

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

It would be nice if the highest paid closer in the league was the best closer in the league, but that's often not how it works - the best closer in the league is often a guy teams develop internally, he peaks for a couple years, and then moves on as a free agent or is traded to the Padres.

I laughed audibly.

Then cried, knowing that one such example got traded to the Sox and crashed / burned.

1 hour ago, GreenSox said:

Graveman's supposed to be our 8th inning guy, but he isn't anywhere close to a lock-down reliever; of course, he wasn't with the Astros last year either.   But the Sox gave him a big fat raise and signed up for 3 years.

Graveman hasn't been that much worse than he was last year. He is what he is. A decent 7th inning guy. But the Sox paid him like he is a premier setup man. We've gotta deal with him for another 2 years too. 

3 hours ago, chw42 said:

He's blown 4 saves all year. He's been shaky at times probably because he hasn't had the stuff he's had in past years but I don't think you can put the blame on him for the bullpen not performing. Kelly's been awful, Bummer has been injured for most of the year, Graveman's been mediocre ever since May. Diekman walks everyone. Those are the other 4 guys being paid a lot of money to perform and they're not even close to earning their money. 

Yeah, he's been good enough.  But he's paid to be elite.  He hasn't been that.  Especially in the 2nd half.  He's clearly the best they've got, but I guess this is maybe more just my impression, but I sure don't feel good with him in the game in a 1 run situation.  

But yeah, maybe this is more that with what he makes I expect him to be the best, and to Balta's point, that's not often how it goes.  

But that stat chart was 9th inning and after.  I don't know but I would guess that Liam leads the team in innings in those situations.  

 

Edited September 21, 20223 yr by turnin' two

I actually made the mistake a few years ago of thinking the Sox were way ahead of the curve with relievers.  Like they had 5-10 Codi Heuer’s on the way.  I thought for sure their pen was going to be set up as a rotation of league minimum guys feeding a pipeline of trades etc.   Our ace in the hole.  
 

Then all of a sudden none of that materialized and we have a 50M bullpen of past-peak veterans.   Awesome.  

1 hour ago, chw42 said:

Graveman hasn't been that much worse than he was last year. He is what he is. A decent 7th inning guy. But the Sox paid him like he is a premier setup man. We've gotta deal with him for another 2 years too. 

They paid Kelly like he's one too.

13 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Glad this was Hahn’s only deadline move.  Imagine how much more damage he could have done trying to save this sinking ship.

You're right there. Plus this only trade Hahn made; he screwed up horribly!  

Since that trade, Diekman has been pure s%*# in 20 games. In his 15 innings he has 18 hits, 9 ER's, 10 BB's, 1.87 Whip and 5.47 ERA.

On the flip side, Reese McGuire has played 26 games for Boston. Since joining Boston he hit .385 in August and .421 in September for a .394 BA in 26 games raising his overall BA from .225 to .279. Of course Reese continued to be an excellent and elite defensive catcher for Boston.