No, it's not Cleveland's GM or manager, though those were factors for sure. In the end the biggest difference was IL days:

Cleveland 685

Sox 1,300

Minnesota 2,107

And of course we all know the Sox lost a lot more games due to guys not on the IL but being "unavailable"

The players need to make a serious commitment to starting the 2023 season in better condition, and the team needs to make a serious commitment to having a training/medical staff that keeps these guys in better condition.

I think the two words you're looking for are "youth" and "depth."

3 minutes ago, JoeC said:

I think the two words you're looking for are "youth" and "depth."

Youth? Sure Grandal is getting up there, but Moncada, Eloy, TA, Robert are all young guys who spent a lot of time on the IL.

There’s a laundry list of reasons why the Sox are done, and none of them should be ignored or dismissed as they try to compete in 2023. Injuries were just one of them, but there’s no way they should brush off this season, and just blame it on days on the IL.

Edited September 21, 20223 yr by flavum

3 minutes ago, CentralChamps21 said:

Youth? Sure Grandal is getting up there, but Moncada, Eloy, TA, Robert are all young guys who spent a lot of time on the IL.

Sure, we've got young guys who are hurt a lot, but we generally have an older roster. As of late July, the Sox had the fourth oldest roster in MLB (based on average age), while Cleveland had the youngest:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/236223/major-league-baseball-clubs-by-average-age-of-players/

The major injuries were suffered by guys like Eloy and TA, but you can't ignore the fact that older players have a tendency to get hurt more, can you?

Just now, JoeC said:

Sure, we've got young guys who are hurt a lot, but we generally have an older roster. As of late July, the Sox had the fourth oldest roster in MLB (based on average age), while Cleveland had the youngest:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/236223/major-league-baseball-clubs-by-average-age-of-players/

The major injuries were suffered by guys like Eloy and TA, but you can't ignore the fact that older players have a tendency to get hurt more, can you?

Bro our 77-year-old manager needing a pacemaker surely must be taken into consideration.

1 minute ago, JoeC said:

Sure, we've got young guys who are hurt a lot, but we generally have an older roster. As of late July, the Sox had the fourth oldest roster in MLB (based on average age), while Cleveland had the youngest:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/236223/major-league-baseball-clubs-by-average-age-of-players/

The major injuries were suffered by guys like Eloy and TA, but you can't ignore the fact that older players have a tendency to get hurt more, can you?

Yes, older guys tend to get hurt more, and getting younger will help, but this team can't win if Moncada, Eloy and Robert aren't all playing 130+ games next year.

1 minute ago, Quin said:

Bro our 77-year-old manager needing a pacemaker surely must be taken into consideration.

Just now, CentralChamps21 said:

Yes, older guys tend to get hurt more, and getting younger will help, but this team can't win if Moncada, Eloy and Robert aren't all playing 130+ games next year.

Reading the board, sometimes it sounds like that would be a benefit if Moncada is shipped off somewhere.

...but yes - I agree. The team needs to stay healthy. All of these soft tissue lower body injuries are killing us.

One could make an argument that the difference is the chase rate of the two teams.

Just now, wegner said:

One could make an argument that the difference is the chase rate of the two teams.

I would argue that it's that Cleveland does a fantastic job of player development. Chase rates are but one result of that development process.

They do a fantastic job developing the assets they have and getting the most out of their returns for existing assets when they do "sell." It's how an organization should be run.

24 minutes ago, Quin said:

Bro our 77-year-old manager needing a pacemaker surely must be taken into consideration.

For the record he already had a pacemaker which is how the Doctors contacted him when the readings they saw were alarming. Lot's of people younger than 77 have pacemakers.

Just now, A-Train to 35th said:

For the record he already had a pacemaker which is how the Doctors contacted him when the readings they saw were alarming. Lot's of people younger than 77 have pacemakers.

Ok.

Our 77-year-old manager having health issues related to his heart and falling asleep must be considered.

Cleveland drafts and develops with the best of them.  Unlike the overpriced retreads that come here to die.  Sox can outspend Cleveland ten fold, but it matters little when they can’t land impact talent nor supplement the holes with cost controlled youth. 

2 minutes ago, Quin said:

Ok.

Our 77-year-old manager having health issues related to his heart and falling asleep must be considered.

Cleveland doesn't use "managerial health issues" as an excuse with Terry Francona.  The White Sox are fundamentally inept at the game of baseball and have to blame themselves for drafting, trading, and acquiring players with low baseball IQ's and of course playing players out of position.  That and the owner picking a 77 year old  to manage an up and coming team is absurd.

5 minutes ago, A-Train to 35th said:

Cleveland doesn't use "managerial health issues" as an excuse with Terry Francona.  The White Sox are fundamentally inept at the game of baseball and have to blame themselves for drafting, trading, and acquiring players with low baseball IQ's and of course playing players out of position.  That and the owner picking a 77 year old  to manage an up and coming team is absurd.

Oh no doubt.

But this is just a drawn out joke about how Tony sucks and his injury also hurt the team, but because he stuck around.

If you have watched these two teams this year, it is very clear that Cleveland is better at baseball.  They have some great talent, and so do the Sox.  But Cleveland is more strategically constructed.  And they are so much better at executing baseball.  They're a better team, and they have been all season.

The biggest difference is that the Sox don't have quality depth.

And the reason  is that, post rebuild, still have an old team and a bottom-tier farm.  The Guardians?  Young team and a top-tier farm.

I fear the White Sox FO will feel the same way as OP this offseason...

Seems like they got better when certain players went on the IL so I unno man.

The difference in the AL to me is some organizations aren't in denial of what they are, and some are.

37 minutes ago, bmags said:

Seems like they got better when certain players went on the IL so I unno man.

The difference in the AL to me is some organizations aren't in denial of what they are, and some are.

The Sox cannot go into the off-season thinking injuries were the only reason the team disappointed in 2022. That would be the height of denial.

We could have weathered the storm with the injuries if not for the under-performing and questionable managerial decisions throughout the year.

If Grandal and Moncada put up 7.7 WAR they did in 2021 instead of the -0.2 WAR in 2022 were probably in first place right now. AJ Pollock went from 3.1 in 2021 to 0.5 in 2022. This is just way too much to overcome, you cant just lose 10 WAR across 3 players like that on your offense.

1 hour ago, bmags said:

Seems like they got better when certain players went on the IL so I unno man.

The difference in the AL to me is some organizations aren't in denial of what they are, and some are.

Yep, they likely don’t bring in Cueto if Lynn doesn’t get hurt and they don’t sign Andrus if Anderson doesn’t get hurt and Andrus (while almost certainly a fluke) has been better than Anderson and Cueto has been their second best starter.

Also, Eloy getting hurt should just be baked in at this point.  He hasn’t shown the ability to stay healthy for a complete season. Kopech having some issues also not a surprise given his history and ramping up his innings.  

12 minutes ago, T R U said:

We could have weathered the storm with the injuries if not for the under-performing and questionable managerial decisions throughout the year.

If Grandal and Moncada put up 7.7 WAR they did in 2021 instead of the -0.2 WAR in 2022 were probably in first place right now. AJ Pollock went from 3.1 in 2021 to 0.5 in 2022. This is just way too much to overcome, you cant just lose 10 WAR across 3 players like that on your offense.

Of course, when you see multiple collapses like that, the answer should not be to shrug one's shoulders and say "well, no way I could have seen that coming", it's instead to ask "ok what the F*** happened here?" Turns out that for a couple of them...relying on guys in their mid 30s who are paid a lot of money is a particularly high risk play and that probably should have been taken into account when deciding roles for the year. For Moncada...maybe you couldn't see another collapse year coming, but how did it happen? Is he having an issue with the coaching staff? Is this a personal issue? If you knew this was a personal issue coming into the season, is there something you could have done during the offseason to create depth? Or to change up the way the locker room runs? All 3 of those guys, for various reasons, were injury risks - did they have backup plans if they missed significant time? 

Some of that stuff...one could have readily been prepared for if they tried to prepare a baseball team for the rigors of a full baseball season, rather than insisting things would work because they said it would. 

Francona.