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The biggest difference in the AL Central


CentralChamps21
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3 minutes ago, chw42 said:

Stop this is how Rick Hahn and co are gonna justify running it back next year. 

I just want to be clear I didn't post this to try to absolve Hahn or LaRussa. They are the two primarily responsible for hiring the training/medical staff.

I'm just noting that a change in manager and/or GM won't help if the players can't stay healthy.

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3 minutes ago, CentralChamps21 said:

I just want to be clear I didn't post this to try to absolve Hahn or LaRussa. They are the two primarily responsible for hiring the training/medical staff.

I'm just noting that a change in manager and/or GM won't help if the players can't stay healthy.

Are there any division champions or playoff teams with a significantly higher number of injury days? I bet there are...

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“Oh yeah, about La Russa. He wasn’t in town to watch this series in person, like he was last week when the Rockies were in town. He’s obviously not cleared by his doctors to actually manage. Why the Sox haven’t officially ruled him out for the season is a mystery, but I’m wondering if he’ll manage one final game as a second goodbye to baseball. I can’t imagine he’ll return in 2023.

The Sox have managed to stay alive under Cairo, showing a little more of “da fire and da passion” that the city’s fans desire. They’re hitting better with La Russa gone, and that cause-and-effect has been hotly debated inside and outside of the stadium.

As our Ken Rosenthal wrote in his open letter to La Russa, there are some reasons the Sox are playing better under Cairo.

“I just let them play,” Cairo said before Tuesday’s game. “Play the game the way you’re supposed to play it. I’ve got a good pitching coach (Ethan Katz), I’ve got Jerry (Narron), I’ve got Super Joe (McEwing), I have Daryl (Boston) that’s been helping me. I just let them play. Play the way you’re supposed to play the game, hard, aggressive and do the little things to win games.”

That’s true, but his most famous move so far has been a meeting he held with the team after his first game as the acting manager, a 7-4 loss. It’s not like he’s flipping over postgame spreads after every loss or giving speeches before every game, but Cairo’s general intensity is hard to miss. And perhaps it was what was missing with La Russa.

The Sox’s poor fundamentals and season-long ennui make you question the point of bringing in the Hall of Famer in the first place. Wasn’t he hired to professionalize this breezy team? Instead, the Sox stumbled and bumbled all season, wasting a perfect opportunity to win at least the division.

And you wonder why the Sox struggle to draw consistent crowds.

I’m not sure this was a universal feeling in the press box, but I was hoping the Sox stayed in the race until the end. Drama is good for business, not to mention my attention span. (It helps when you don’t go to every game.)

But even if the Sox could’ve pulled off a sweep, they would’ve still had to play near-perfect baseball the rest of the way. Are they capable of that?

I don’t need to go to BetRivers to find those odds. I’ve seen it with my own eyes all season.”

Greenberg TheAthletic.com

 

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4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Are there any division champions or playoff teams with a significantly higher number of injury days? I bet there are...

Dodgers had a lot more, but they had such insane depth I'm not sure they're a vaild comparison. Yankees and Mets have similar numbers to the Sox, but both have struggled after hot starts.

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The issue with this organization goes a lot deeper than just "injuries." That's an easy answer and while this franchise has been gutted by injuries not just this year BUT FOR THE PAST SEVERAL SEASONS, (which makes you wonder about how competent the Sox medical, training and conditioning staffs are along with their "philosophy") the lack of depth, bad decisions by an overmatched G.M., the managerial situation and the unwillingness to hold people accountable both on the field and off it are also a major part.

It has been six seasons since the 'rebuild" began, this is year three of the so-called "contention window." What do Sox fans have to show for it?

This rebuild isn't even on the same planet as the Astros/Cubs rebuilds is it?

And of course everything starts and end with bad ownership.

Only advice I can give to Sox fans is to take care of yourself, hope to outlive JR and see what happens moving forward.

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1 minute ago, tray said:

Don't need your advice.

That's fine. It was free so you haven't lost anything. 

The point is and history shows this, that nothing substantial will change with this organization until JR no longer has any say in it.  

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1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said:

The issue with this organization goes a lot deeper than just "injuries." That's an easy answer and while this franchise has been gutted by injuries not just this year BUT FOR THE PAST SEVERAL SEASONS, (which makes you wonder about how competent the Sox medical, training and conditioning staffs are along with their "philosophy")

Just to stress this somewhere else - the White Sox are in the middle of the pack in all of MLB in terms of injury days this year. Not nearly the worst. And for everyone who keeps saying "oh but they're losing their key guys and no one else is" - note that the Yankees and Mets were brought up and they've had guys like Scherzer, DeGrom, Stanton, Montas, Chad Green as guys hitting the IL, key parts of their teams to.

If the White Sox are "gutted" by injuries any time they're not the healthiest team in the league, and injuries that other teams power through are also managing to shut down the White Sox...this says something about the White Sox as well. 

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1 hour ago, flavum said:

Sox used the fewest amount of players in the AL. It’s tough all over. 

They also have the fewest usable players in their organization. Depth, or lack thereof, played a big role this season.

4 hours ago, CentralChamps21 said:

No, it's not Cleveland's GM or manager, though those were factors for sure. In the end the biggest difference was IL days:

Cleveland 685

Sox 1,300

Minnesota 2,107

And of course we all know the Sox lost a lot more games due to guys not on the IL but being "unavailable"

The players need to make a serious commitment to starting the 2023 season in better condition, and the team needs to make a serious commitment to having a training/medical staff that keeps these guys in better condition.

While I agree injuries played a role this season, I also see their horrid team defense, specifically their porous outfield, contributing to their downfall.

  • Anderson and Robert continued their defensive regression, dropping from defensive assets to league and below league average defenders, respectively.
  • Pollock can’t throw, but looks acceptable when compared to Hahn’s other two options.
  • Vaughn and Sheets aren’t major league quality outfielders. Period. The jury is still out on whether either are major league quality first baseman.

The infield corners, catchers and part timers Elvis Andrus and Dallas Keuchel were the few defensive bright spots on this team.

This needs to change if the Sox plan on attempting to compete in 2023.

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1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Just to stress this somewhere else - the White Sox are in the middle of the pack in all of MLB in terms of injury days this year. Not nearly the worst. And for everyone who keeps saying "oh but they're losing their key guys and no one else is" - note that the Yankees and Mets were brought up and they've had guys like Scherzer, DeGrom, Stanton, Montas, Chad Green as guys hitting the IL, key parts of their teams to.

If the White Sox are "gutted" by injuries any time they're not the healthiest team in the league, and injuries that other teams power through are also managing to shut down the White Sox...this says something about the White Sox as well. 

Your last statement is completely correct but as others have pointed out the White Sox for various reasons simply can't afford the number of injuries they've had starting back in 2016. I use that as a starting point because of the oddity of four rookies making their MLB debuts for the Sox not even being able to finish their first game and having to go on the injured list. A few years after that, I think it was around 2019 if I remember right, the Sox had nine pitchers on the IL, it was an ungodly number. This from a franchise, that deservedly so, used to boast about keeping guys healthy.

Take a look then at how their injuries exploded in 2020, 2021 and this season. 

It's not a good situation and there is enough data now to legitimately wonder what is going on with the medical, training and conditioning staffs. The Sox have gone through three trainers and a few conditioning guys the past few years yet nothing seems to have changed. Something seems amiss at the most basic level. 

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22 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Your last statement is completely correct but as others have pointed out the White Sox for various reasons simply can't afford the number of injuries they've had starting back in 2016. I use that as a starting point because of the oddity of four rookies making their MLB debuts for the Sox not even being able to finish their first game and having to go on the injured list. A few years after that, I think it was around 2019 if I remember right, the Sox had nine pitchers on the IL, it was an ungodly number. This from a franchise, that deservedly so, used to boast about keeping guys healthy.

Take a look then at how their injuries exploded in 2020, 2021 and this season. 

It's not a good situation and there is enough data now to legitimately wonder what is going on with the medical, training and conditioning staffs. The Sox have gone through three trainers and a few conditioning guys the past few years yet nothing seems to have changed. Something seems amiss at the most basic level. 

The baseline you're using of 2016 though is literally "the healthiest team in baseball" because that's what the White Sox were in 2015-2016. if you're comparing to that, then yes, that's an ungodly number of injuries - but it's not a reasonable point of comparison. If your team has to be the healthiest team in baseball to compete, you are unlikely to compete.

Let's go to Minnesota's Injury List right now, they just got the stuffing beaten out of them by the Guardians. Just the pitchers even. These are guys on the IL right now.
Sonny Gray 
Chris Archer
Tyler Mahle
Chris Paddack
Kenta Maeda (out for season)
Matt Canterino

Right away, that's 5 starting pitchers they are missing, plus a 6th guy who was a minor league starter. Here are the relievers they're missing.

Jhon Romero
Danny Coulombe
Cody Stashak
Jorge Alcala
 

You said that having 9 pitchers on the IL was an ungodly number, except that's literally what the Twins have right now. More than that if you count the guy they'd have called up from the minors. This just demonstrates the issue, that people think any injuries at all mean the White Sox must be excessively injured. It's just not true! Imagine the White Sox had Cease, Kopech, Lynn, Giolito, Martin, and Keuchel all injured, as well as Bummer, Kelly, Crochet, and Ruiz. How would that stretch of games have gone for them? That's literally what the Twins are looking at.

The Twins are unusually banged up right now, but these things happen. The same stuff happened to the Tigers this year, so that's 2/5 of our division that basically lost their entire starting rotation to injuries. 

If this costs the Twins a shot at the division, they might have a legit complaint, although there are teams that banged up that will still likely make the playoffs (Tampa Bay). If a team can't afford that number of injuries, I might understand it, but some teams can still survive it. If your team cannot survive being in the middle of the pack in terms of injuries, then your team cannot survive. 

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I do think the white sox lost several games to injury, and that if they were as healthy as the guardians we would be two back right now. Equally frustrating about all of this is that the White Sox were a real outfielder away from easily winning this division. I think what's most aggravating though, is that I look at a Guardians team who plays hard and is hungry every day, and a White Sox team that is sleepwalking unless something happens to wake them the f*** up. 

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The most difficult time to win is when you are expected to win and this team has reacted poorly. Over confidence at first and then pressing as the schedule became short.

Look at Cleveland. They didn’t expect to win but worked hard to win. They play loose and hustle. It’s  managing. Francona is the biggest difference.

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Injuries happen, the Sox have had some significant ones to key pieces. What doesn’t happen is the consistent rushing of these players back to where they’re not effective and/or quickly hurt themselves again.  It’s happened so much this year that I’m convinced webmd would have done a better job than the idiots in charge.

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17 minutes ago, soxfaninfl said:

The most difficult time to win is when you are expected to win and this team has reacted poorly. Over confidence at first and then pressing as the schedule became short.

Look at Cleveland. They didn’t expect to win but worked hard to win. They play loose and hustle. It’s  managing. Francona is the biggest difference.

Can argue Francona either #1 or #1A to Antonetti and Chernoff.

I'd trade the Sox organization (FO, staff, major and minor league players) for the Cleveland's entire organization without hesitation.

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7 hours ago, CentralChamps21 said:

No, it's not Cleveland's GM or manager, though those were factors for sure. In the end the biggest difference was IL days:

Cleveland 685

Sox 1,300

Minnesota 2,107

And of course we all know the Sox lost a lot more games due to guys not on the IL but being "unavailable"

The players need to make a serious commitment to starting the 2023 season in better condition, and the team needs to make a serious commitment to having a training/medical staff that keeps these guys in better condition.

I hear you. All true, yet despite that kind of thing, we stand regarding a team that may have blown the entire season  just because they couldn’t bear to sit Dallas Gas Can Kuechel. That unnecessary decision and trotting out  LaRussa as manager had to be worth -4 games in the standings minimum. Maddening. Sorry to get  off topic but someone reminded me just now and I needed a place to vent.

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58 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

The baseline you're using of 2016 though is literally "the healthiest team in baseball" because that's what the White Sox were in 2015-2016. if you're comparing to that, then yes, that's an ungodly number of injuries - but it's not a reasonable point of comparison. If your team has to be the healthiest team in baseball to compete, you are unlikely to compete.

Let's go to Minnesota's Injury List right now, they just got the stuffing beaten out of them by the Guardians. Just the pitchers even. These are guys on the IL right now.
Sonny Gray 
Chris Archer
Tyler Mahle
Chris Paddack
Kenta Maeda (out for season)
Matt Canterino

Right away, that's 5 starting pitchers they are missing, plus a 6th guy who was a minor league starter. Here are the relievers they're missing.

Jhon Romero
Danny Coulombe
Cody Stashak
Jorge Alcala
 

You said that having 9 pitchers on the IL was an ungodly number, except that's literally what the Twins have right now. More than that if you count the guy they'd have called up from the minors. This just demonstrates the issue, that people think any injuries at all mean the White Sox must be excessively injured. It's just not true! Imagine the White Sox had Cease, Kopech, Lynn, Giolito, Martin, and Keuchel all injured, as well as Bummer, Kelly, Crochet, and Ruiz. How would that stretch of games have gone for them? That's literally what the Twins are looking at.

The Twins are unusually banged up right now, but these things happen. The same stuff happened to the Tigers this year, so that's 2/5 of our division that basically lost their entire starting rotation to injuries. 

If this costs the Twins a shot at the division, they might have a legit complaint, although there are teams that banged up that will still likely make the playoffs (Tampa Bay). If a team can't afford that number of injuries, I might understand it, but some teams can still survive it. If your team cannot survive being in the middle of the pack in terms of injuries, then your team cannot survive. 

You always love to qualify the white Sox injuries as like "Oh Eloy, got hurt - what a surprise!"  Here is some context on all these Twins injuries you continue to point to every therad. 

Sonny Gray - literally went on the IL yesterday, but has made a full SP workload exactly one time since 2015

Chris Archer - has been hurt his entire career, him being hurt should be surprise exactly no one. 
Tyler Mahle - was traded for with a bad shoulder, and hurt his shoulder immediately - WHAT A SHOCKER!
Chris Paddack - was traded with for a partially torn UCL, and blew his UCL immediately  - WHAT A SHOCKER!
Kenta Maeda (out for season) - was hurt last year and they've known he was out all season since last season, and spent all offseason acquiring often-injured SPs to fill teh gap
Matt Canterino - literally has never appeared above AA, no idea why you included him on that list

Right away, that's 5 starting pitchers they are missing, plus a 6th guy who was a minor league starter. Here are the relievers they're missing.

Jhon Romero - has appeared in 9 MLB games in his career.  Not exactly a crushing loss.    
Danny Coulombe - a 33 middle reliever that was out of baseball for 3 years because he's bad. He's a loggy that can't get lefties out. 
Cody Stashak - a middle reliver with 55 career games with comparable numbers to Ruiz with 1/3 the experience
Jorge Alcala - a solid middle reliever that has been a loss 

The Twins made their own bed with these injuries.  They literally lose their best SP (Maeda) and then spent all season acquiring dudes who cannot stay healthy, and then trade for Mahle with a bum shoulder.  They got exactly what they asked for. Not to mention extending Buxton who tied his 2nd most games played in a season this year with 92 (lol!!!!). You reap what you sow.  

 

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5 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

You always love to qualify the white Sox injuries as like "Oh Eloy, got hurt - what a surprise!"  Here is some context on all these Twins injuries you continue to point to every therad. 

Sonny Gray - literally went on the IL yesterday, but has made a full SP workload exactly one time since 2015

Chris Archer - has been hurt his entire career, him being hurt should be surprise exactly no one. 
Tyler Mahle - was traded for with a bad shoulder, and hurt his shoulder immediately - WHAT A SHOCKER!
Chris Paddack - was traded with for a partially torn UCL, and blew his UCL immediately  - WHAT A SHOCKER!
Kenta Maeda (out for season) - was hurt last year and they've known he was out all season since last season, and spent all offseason acquiring often-injured SPs to fill teh gap
Matt Canterino - literally has never appeared above AA, no idea why you included him on that list

Right away, that's 5 starting pitchers they are missing, plus a 6th guy who was a minor league starter. Here are the relievers they're missing.

Jhon Romero - has appeared in 9 MLB games in his career.  Not exactly a crushing loss.    
Danny Coulombe - a 33 middle reliever that was out of baseball for 3 years because he's bad. He's a loggy that can't get lefties out. 
Cody Stashak - a middle reliver with 55 career games with comparable numbers to Ruiz with 1/3 the experience
Jorge Alcala - a solid middle reliever that has been a loss 

The Twins made their own bed with these injuries.  They literally lose their best SP (Maeda) and then spent all season acquiring dudes who cannot stay healthy, and then trade for Mahle with a bum shoulder.  They got exactly what they asked for. Not to mention extending Buxton who tied his 2nd most games played in a season this year with 92 (lol!!!!). You reap what you sow.  

 

Basically, the guys who get hurt every year, and the Sox now have several, will continue to get hurt. There may be one or two magical years here and there where they avoid it. You also have to figure someone who doesn't always get hurt, will get hurt. 

The problem is the Sox have too many key guys who are annually injured. Several of those are injured multiple times every year.

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Just now, Dick Allen said:

Basically, the guys who get hurt every year, and the Sox now have several, will continue to get hurt. There may be one or two magical years here and there where they avoid it. You also have to figure someone who doesn't always get hurt, will get hurt. 

The problem is the Sox have too many key guys who are annually injured. Several of those are injured multiple times every year.

That's fair.  Definitely think Eloy is a guy you cannot rely on to play more than 120 games.  Certainly Grandal is part time player in 2023.

I would sure hope we'd see better health from Moncada, TA and Robert in 2023, although all have shown a propensity for injuries.  If all four of Eloy, Moncada, TA and Robert miss big chunks of 2023 like they did in 2022, Sox are in for another arduous season.   

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6 hours ago, GreenSox said:

The biggest difference is that the Sox don't have quality depth.

And the reason  is that, post rebuild, still have an old team and a bottom-tier farm.  The Guardians?  Young team and a top-tier farm.

Plus their scouting.  How many trades didn't work?

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