2 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

It's a weird pivot, when AJ asks, "Where are all the prospects he's developed?" Then has to move the goal-posts to non-blue chip, then to late rounders. 

Jake Burger wasn't a "blue chip" prospect. He was a bat-first prospect who everyone questioned his ability to stay at 3B. Luis Robert needed coaching on pitch selection and fielding. It's disingenuous to start eliminating successes. I mean, if Chris Getz did such a crappy job as director of player development, you wouldn't have to make special rules to eliminate the people who disprove the claim. 

 

And if he did a better job his boss would not have been fired and he wouldn't have been promoted. Just White Sox things.

1 hour ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

You have been talking about people not having any proof of anything they say.  Yet, you have no proof to say that both Nastrini and Montgomery would have made the Sox opening day roster if Hahn was still the GM or if someone else was hired other than Getz.  And here you are, giving credit to Getz for keeping them in the minors.

I did not say someone other than Getz. Hahn regularly rostered players clearly in over their heads for the opening day start (May, Colas, Micah Johnson). 

Again, if Getz was such a crappy director, and now GM, and if I was so clearly wrong, you wouldn't have to resort to picking at misinterpretations of what I said to have any kind of argument. 

11 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

And if he did a better job his boss would not have been fired and he wouldn't have been promoted. Just White Sox things.

Oh, stop with the silly generalities. Here, watch: The Vizquel and Wes Helms situation should have been a disqualifier. 

That's an actual argument that I'd respect. 

Pretending that Hahn/KW got fired because an entry level hire didn't save the organization from itself is ludicrous. 

14 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

And if he did a better job his boss would not have been fired and he wouldn't have been promoted. Just White Sox things.

16 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

The *professional* opinions I saw grading the Cease trade fall on the "a little light" part of the spectrum. I've not seen anybody with any credibility refer to the trade return as "pretty bad".

At best, Jose Rodriguez is a future utility infielder who can't take a walk, and OBPed under .300 while hitting .270. Being on a "top 30 prospect list" doesn't insure a full career starting in the majors. 

Situational? Like, looking at 2/3 of the PAs at a position is a situation? 

Seriously, if you try, you can even make drafting Frank Thomas look like a dumb decision. 

Im talking about Soxtalk, you know the collective group of people we interact with in regards to the White Sox. I don't know about you, but I don't get to discuss the White Sox with the "professionals". My personal opinion was the return for Cease was very good.

You do not know what "at best" Jose Rodriguez is. That's besides the point anyways. He is a prospect, we are a rebuilding team. There is no excuse for jettisoning young players with potential when its not necessary. As its already been said, maybe something else comes from his absence story but until that happens this was another dumbass decision by a guy who so far is proving he shouldn't be in charge of an MLB team.

Situational as in platoon. Although so far, he doesn't appear to be good against any handed pitcher. I mean, if you can declare Jose Rodriguez a utility player at best how can you deny my Fletcher opinion? Doesn't work like that.

30 minutes ago, JoeC said:

Do later picks count?

Just from 2017, there are several picks from later than the 10th round who have made "noticeable impact."

AJ's point is that the Sox have taken blue-chip guys and turned them into, at best, what was expected of them.

They haven't taken any "take a flyer on this kid" guys and turned them into anything more than utility guys / mid-bullpen arms in quite some time.

Just in 2017, 10-20, I think there were 2-3 guys who have produced more than 3 bWAR. Garret Whitlock for the Yankees, JR Sears, and a guy for the Astros. Twins had one, too. 4 guys. 

This isn't a high-percentage occurrence. 

3 minutes ago, T R U said:

Im talking about Soxtalk, you know the collective group of people we interact with in regards to the White Sox. I don't know about you, but I don't get to discuss the White Sox with the "professionals". My personal opinion was the return for Cease was very good.

You do not know what "at best" Jose Rodriguez is. That's besides the point anyways. He is a prospect, we are a rebuilding team. There is no excuse for jettisoning young players with potential when its not necessary. As its already been said, maybe something else comes from his absence story but until that happens this was another dumbass decision by a guy who so far is proving he shouldn't be in charge of an MLB team.

Situational as in platoon. Although so far, he doesn't appear to be good against any handed pitcher. I mean, if you can declare Jose Rodriguez a utility player at best how can you deny my Fletcher opinion? Doesn't work like that.

1.  The professionals he is talking about broadcast and publish their thoughts to the public.  I don't remember any expert trashing the deal. 

2. I mean more goes into roster decisions than just "age."  Do you think all rebuilding teams just decide who to drop based on date of birth?  If this team was good and everyone was happy, I don't think anyone would care about dropping Jose Rodriguez outside of someone like Josh Nelson.  

3.  I think its safe to say Fletcher is more likely to be a good major leaguer than Jose Rodriguez.  

2 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:

1.  The professionals he is talking about broadcast and publish their thoughts to the public.  I don't remember any expert trashing the deal. 

2. I mean more goes into roster decisions than just "age."  Do you think all rebuilding teams just decide who to drop based on date of birth?  If this team was good and everyone was happy, I don't think anyone would care about dropping Jose Rodriguez outside of someone like Josh Nelson.  

3.  I think its safe to say Fletcher is more likely to be a good major leaguer than Jose Rodriguez.  

Sir, I already clarified I was talking about Soxtalk. I am aware a lot of professionals liked it, and I liked it as well.

There is literally nothing that would suggest Fletcher is a safe bet to be a good major leaguer over Jose Rodriguez. What are you talking about? Fletcher has a small sample size in the majors and Jose hasn't gotten the opportunity.

Shocked that this thread has derailed...Shocked I tell you!

1 minute ago, T R U said:

Sir, I already clarified I was talking about Soxtalk. I am aware a lot of professionals liked it, and I liked it as well.

There is literally nothing that would suggest Fletcher is a safe bet to be a good major leaguer over Jose Rodriguez. What are you talking about? Fletcher has a small sample size in the majors and Jose hasn't gotten the opportunity.

I don't understand why the general consensus opinion of the Cease trade on Soxtalk (and only Soxtalk), that you and the experts disagree with, is evidence of the trade being a "headscratcher."  Give yourself more credit!  Your thoughts on the trade align with the pros haha.

Maybe I have to read more about Jose Rodriguez.  Before this thread, I didn't realize people thought so highly of him.  

28 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I did not say someone other than Getz. Hahn regularly rostered players clearly in over their heads for the opening day start (May, Colas, Micah Johnson). 

The history is so ugly that I honestly can't even remember who May is.

1 minute ago, Snopek said:

The history is so ugly that I honestly can't even remember who May is.

lol...

Jacob May, who my dad would accidently call Carlos Lee who my dad would accidently call Carlos May.  

23 minutes ago, T R U said:

Im talking about Soxtalk, you know the collective group of people we interact with in regards to the White Sox. I don't know about you, but I don't get to discuss the White Sox with the "professionals". My personal opinion was the return for Cease was very good.

You do not know what "at best" Jose Rodriguez is. That's besides the point anyways. He is a prospect, we are a rebuilding team. There is no excuse for jettisoning young players with potential when its not necessary. As its already been said, maybe something else comes from his absence story but until that happens this was another dumbass decision by a guy who so far is proving he shouldn't be in charge of an MLB team.

Situational as in platoon. Although so far, he doesn't appear to be good against any handed pitcher. I mean, if you can declare Jose Rodriguez a utility player at best how can you deny my Fletcher opinion? Doesn't work like that.

I, too, am finding Fletcher frustrating, and I'm hoping he can get on a little bit of a roll sometime soon. But it happens. Trades don't work out. It it starts to happen that NO trades are working out, like Rick Hahn's luck, then I'll start to believe that they're not taking the advice of their scouts, or they're using MLB's prospect rankings or something stupid like that. 

Our minor league system sucks, not because really good prospects are being misled into bad habits that ruin their talent, but because we have a bunch of one good tool guys who we're waiting on to look like the guy from 3 years ago. And I think Jose Rodriguez is one of those guys. He hits, he just doesn't light it up. It's nice he's good at multiple positions. Not having prospects doesn't mean we have to hang onto non-prospects. 

The Athletic, Keith Law, SoxMachine, Twitter journalists/bloggers I follow - that was their reaction. A little light, but if this guy develops, look out. I like SoxTalk (as you can tell from how much time I'm here), but I do think it's a bit of a negative echo chamber, as is a lot of White Sox Twitter and other blogs. 

1 minute ago, Nardiwashere said:

I don't understand why the general consensus opinion of the Cease trade on Soxtalk (and only Soxtalk), that you and the experts disagree with, is evidence of the trade being a "headscratcher."  Give yourself more credit!  Your thoughts on the trade align with the pros haha.

Maybe I have to read more about Jose Rodriguez.  Before this thread, I didn't realize people thought so highly of him.  

Jose Rodriguez is not a top prospect, but he is a 23 year old middle infielder who is pretty close to ready, has some pop, and can steal 30-40 bases. He could basically equal the value of DeJong, Lopez, or Shewmake but at a fraction of the cost (not Shewmake obviously).

I don't understand the logic of DeJong or Lopez over Rodriguez. Why not find out what you have, we already know the other two stink.

3 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I, too, am finding Fletcher frustrating, and I'm hoping he can get on a little bit of a roll sometime soon. But it happens. Trades don't work out. It it starts to happen that NO trades are working out, like Rick Hahn's luck, then I'll start to believe that they're not taking the advice of their scouts, or they're using MLB's prospect rankings or something stupid like that. 

Our minor league system sucks, not because really good prospects are being misled into bad habits that ruin their talent, but because we have a bunch of one good tool guys who we're waiting on to look like the guy from 3 years ago. And I think Jose Rodriguez is one of those guys. He hits, he just doesn't light it up. It's nice he's good at multiple positions. Not having prospects doesn't mean we have to hang onto non-prospects. 

The Athletic, Keith Law, SoxMachine, Twitter journalists/bloggers I follow - that was their reaction. A little light, but if this guy develops, look out. I like SoxTalk (as you can tell from how much time I'm here), but I do think it's a bit of a negative echo chamber, as is a lot of White Sox Twitter and other blogs. 

Everyone here has a right to be negative. Not a whole lot of positive things have been happening to this organization for the last several years.

4 minutes ago, T R U said:

Jose Rodriguez is not a top prospect, but he is a 23 year old middle infielder who is pretty close to ready, has some pop, and can steal 30-40 bases. He could basically equal the value of DeJong, Lopez, or Shewmake but at a fraction of the cost (not Shewmake obviously).

I don't understand the logic of DeJong or Lopez over Rodriguez. Why not find out what you have, we already know the other two stink.

DeJong and Lopez are stability. Given the chance, either can put up 1.5-2 bWAR behind the pitching staff you're trying to develop. I dig Lenyn Sosa, and wanted him starting 2B, and he gave us negative WAR last year, he was so lost. I think we have 4-5 guys like Rodriguez at AAA and AA. 

7 minutes ago, T R U said:

Everyone here has a right to be negative. Not a whole lot of positive things have been happening to this organization for the last several years.

I agree with you. But in discussing it, I get put off by, "Getz hasn't developed anybody. Except the guys he developed, but they don't count, because reasons."

6 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

DeJong and Lopez are stability. Given the chance, either can put up 1.5-2 bWAR behind the pitching staff you're trying to develop. I dig Lenyn Sosa, and wanted him starting 2B, and he gave us negative WAR last year, he was so lost. I think we have 4-5 guys like Rodriguez at AAA and AA. 

Sure if you squint hard and look back 3-4 years they could put up 1.5 WAR

1 minute ago, WestEddy said:

I agree with you. But in discussing it, I get put off by, "Getz hasn't developed anybody. Except the guys he developed, but they don't count, because reasons."

Who exactly did he develop or should get credit for the development of?

14 minutes ago, T R U said:

Who exactly did he develop or should get credit for the development of?

17 minutes ago, T R U said:

Who exactly did he develop or should get credit for the development of?

Cease, Burger, Robert, Davis Martin, Crochet, Madrigal, Sheets, Jimmy Lambert, Zach Remillard, Rey Lopez, Giolito, Jimenez, Yoan, Kopech, Cristian Mena, Lenyn Sosa. 

Speaking of Sosa, guy has nothing to prove in the minors anymore. Get him up here and play him.

21 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Cease, Burger, Robert, Davis Martin, Crochet, Madrigal, Sheets, Jimmy Lambert, Zach Remillard, Rey Lopez, Giolito, Jimenez, Yoan, Kopech, Cristian Mena, Lenyn Sosa. 

Burger's wife had a lot more to do with his resurgence.

The rest of this list there's no point even commenting on.

Our past two GMs are clearly so well regarded that everyone nearly beat down a path to their doors to offer KW and Hahn second chances this past off season.

Edited April 4, 20241 yr by caulfield12

17 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Burger's wife had a lot more to do with his resurgence.

The rest of this list there's no point even commenting on.

Our past two GMs are clearly so well regarded that everyone nearly beat down a path to their doors to offer KW and Hahn second chances this past off season.

The person asked which players Getz, as director of player development, could "get credit" for. I'm not sure what your argument would be. Did Burger's wife manage a minor league team and throw him batting practice? 

It's funny when people play the, "I will not agree to any facts." game.

"The White Sox don't even play baseball on Earth! There!"

Why are we even arguing about this?