23 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Frank lasted as long as he did because JR had a different mindset back then. 

I get your viewpoint but the Sox are between a rock and a hard place with no way out until new ownership arrives. JR is dead-set in his ways and his thoughts on how things should be done and at age 88 he probably isn't changing his philosophy. 

“Diminished Skills Clause” says hello. 

1 hour ago, Frank the Tank 35 said:

“Diminished Skills Clause” says hello. 

Fair point but Frank also lasted 16 years with the team clause or not.

25 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Fair point but Frank also lasted 16 years with the team clause or not.

If JR could have fetishized that clause across baseball, as was likely the intent, maybe, just maybe, we’d be sitting at the adults table when it comes to FAs. Point being I’m not sure JR has actually changed. Players like Jordan and Thomas FORCED him to continue their employment by their performances alone. 

8 minutes ago, Frank the Tank 35 said:

If JR could have fetishized that clause across baseball, as was likely the intent, maybe, just maybe, we’d be sitting at the adults table when it comes to FAs. Point being I’m not sure JR has actually changed. Players like Jordan and Thomas FORCED him to continue their employment by their performances alone. 

Again that's a fair point.

10 hours ago, poppysox said:

How so?  When I get fed up with an organization, I actually stop supporting it.  Some just talk about it.

I got to enjoy three Stanley Cups and a modern day dynasty, while you sat pouting about a decision made 40 years ago from a long dead owner.
 

You showed them! 

38 minutes ago, Tony said:

I got to enjoy three Stanley Cups and a modern day dynasty, while you sat pouting about a decision made 40 years ago from a long dead owner.
 

You showed them! 

Me personally, I ditched the 'Hawks when they got rid of Chelios.

It makes me happy to have seen the 'Hawks win, but really from a "I'm happy for my friends who love them" perspective. I just stopped any emotional connection with the team.

Does that mean I similarly "showed them?"

Does Robert give a s%*# about anything.  He represents the end of the Sox vaginasty.

2 hours ago, Tony said:

I got to enjoy three Stanley Cups and a modern day dynasty, while you sat pouting about a decision made 40 years ago from a long dead owner.
 

You showed them! 

The stranger thing is that Reinsdorf has done several dastardly things as the owner of the Sox and has essentially blamed the fans for his failures, yet @poppysox is still a Sox fan.  How does that make sense?

Edited June 10, 20241 yr by WhiteSox2023

4 hours ago, JoeC said:

Me personally, I ditched the 'Hawks when they got rid of Chelios.

It makes me happy to have seen the 'Hawks win, but really from a "I'm happy for my friends who love them" perspective. I just stopped any emotional connection with the team.

Does that mean I similarly "showed them?"

It means you let one man change your fandom, which is usually something passed down from family, friends, community. 

I don’t watch the Sox anymore, and don’t see that changing over the next few years. Not until they give me a reason to watch. 

The difference is, Jerry Reinsdorf, or Bill Wirtz, aren’t what I was raised to love, or be a fan of. I wasn’t raised to root for the owner. When Bill Wirtz died, the Blackhawks franchise didn’t. Quite the opposite actually. And Jerry Reinsdorf isn’t going to make me totally abandon the White Sox, I’m just not going to support them while he’s the owner. 

You do you, but if you were a Blackhawks fan previously, and you removed yourself because of a decision Bill Wirtz made in 1999, missing out on 3 Stanley Cups in the 2010’s, with new ownership…seems silly. 

24 minutes ago, Tony said:

It means you let one man change your fandom, which is usually something passed down from family, friends, community. 

I don’t watch the Sox anymore, and don’t see that changing over the next few years. Not until they give me a reason to watch. 

The difference is, Jerry Reinsdorf, or Bill Wirtz, aren’t what I raised to love, or be a fan of. I wasn’t raised to root for the owner. When Bill Wirtz died, the Blackhawks franchise didn’t. Quite the opposite actually. And Jerry Reinsdorf isn’t going to make me totally abandon the White Sox, I’m just not going to support them while he’s the owner. 

You do you, but if you were a Blackhawks fan previously, and you removed yourself because of a decision Bill Wirtz made in 1999, missing out on 3 Stanley Cups in the 2010’s, with new ownership…seems silly. 

Probably a cliche, especially cause it's from a sports sitcom, but the line "it's their (fans) team, we're just borrowing it for a little white," from Ted Lasso slots in perfectly here.

Barring horrendous luck, the manager/owner/chairman/etc. of your favorite team will change.

2 hours ago, pcq said:

Does Robert give a s%*# about anything.  He represents the end of the Sox vaginasty.

What'd he do? I didn't watch. Is he a loafer? I usually am awed by his raw ability. He and Tatis woulda been a nice 1-2 punch.

6 hours ago, greg775 said:

What'd he do? I didn't watch. Is he a loafer? I usually am awed by his raw ability. He and Tatis woulda been a nice 1-2 punch.

Who created that environment for Luis Robert, Jr., anyway?  Hahn...Ventura, they set the tone for years (see the Drake LaRoche/Sale/Eaton fiasco, for example)...Rick Renteria, TLR, Grifol, Montoyo, etc.  Think about Tim Anderson here as well, Grandal, Moncada, the failure from the veteran leaders as well jettisoning Abreu, the only guy Robert really seemed to respect a lot.

Isn't it amazing how players like Reynaldo Lopez or (fill-in-the-blank) and suddenly transform into almost completely different players and even personalities. 

Put him on a competitive team, look at how Dylan Cease has suddenly elevated his game this year.

11 hours ago, Tony said:

I got to enjoy three Stanley Cups and a modern day dynasty, while you sat pouting about a decision made 40 years ago from a long dead owner.
 

You showed them! 

I don't miss what I don't care about.  You should try it.

8 hours ago, Tony said:

It means you let one man change your fandom, which is usually something passed down from family, friends, community. 

I don’t watch the Sox anymore, and don’t see that changing over the next few years. Not until they give me a reason to watch. 

The difference is, Jerry Reinsdorf, or Bill Wirtz, aren’t what I was raised to love, or be a fan of. I wasn’t raised to root for the owner. When Bill Wirtz died, the Blackhawks franchise didn’t. Quite the opposite actually. And Jerry Reinsdorf isn’t going to make me totally abandon the White Sox, I’m just not going to support them while he’s the owner. 

You do you, but if you were a Blackhawks fan previously, and you removed yourself because of a decision Bill Wirtz made in 1999, missing out on 3 Stanley Cups in the 2010’s, with new ownership…seems silly. 

Yeah for me, it wasn’t one trade or decision. It was the long track record of  Wirtz’s decisions that led to the Chelios trade being the straw that broke the camel’s back. Off the top of my head from the ‘90’s, there was the Lindros ordeal, the way he ran Roenick out of town, not to mention the home games on TV.

My anger was directed at Wirtz, and that anger disassociated me from the loyalty I felt to the ‘Hawks. At this point, I see the ‘Hawks the same way I see basically any other NHL team.

That’s why, even though I am far too emotionally invested in the Sox to give them up as easily, I understand when people make these decisions.

1 hour ago, JoeC said:

Yeah for me, it wasn’t one trade or decision. It was the long track record of  Wirtz’s decisions that led to the Chelios trade being the straw that broke the camel’s back. Off the top of my head from the ‘90’s, there was the Lindros ordeal, the way he ran Roenick out of town, not to mention the home games on TV.

My anger was directed at Wirtz, and that anger disassociated me from the loyalty I felt to the ‘Hawks. At this point, I see the ‘Hawks the same way I see basically any other NHL team.

That’s why, even though I am far too emotionally invested in the Sox to give them up as easily, I understand when people make these decisions.

Pretty early during the Wannstedt era, I got tired of being angry all year. Sports radio didn't help, stupid, repeatable canards to just whine 24/7 about anything. I stopped following the Bears. My life is richer for it. 

4 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Who created that environment for Luis Robert, Jr., anyway?  Hahn...Ventura, they set the tone for years (see the Drake LaRoche/Sale/Eaton fiasco, for example)...Rick Renteria, TLR, Grifol, Montoyo, etc.  Think about Tim Anderson here as well, Grandal, Moncada, the failure from the veteran leaders as well jettisoning Abreu, the only guy Robert really seemed to respect a lot.

Isn't it amazing how players like Reynaldo Lopez or (fill-in-the-blank) and suddenly transform into almost completely different players and even personalities. 

Put him on a competitive team, look at how Dylan Cease has suddenly elevated his game this year.

16

5 hours ago, JoeC said:

Yeah for me, it wasn’t one trade or decision. It was the long track record of  Wirtz’s decisions that led to the Chelios trade being the straw that broke the camel’s back. Off the top of my head from the ‘90’s, there was the Lindros ordeal, the way he ran Roenick out of town, not to mention the home games on TV.

My anger was directed at Wirtz, and that anger disassociated me from the loyalty I felt to the ‘Hawks. At this point, I see the ‘Hawks the same way I see basically any other NHL team.

That’s why, even though I am far too emotionally invested in the Sox to give them up as easily, I understand when people make these decisions.

Those 3 Blackhawk titles were fun. It was great to have Crawford in goal. Seems to me if you don't have a super goaltender u ain't winning squat. As far as the White Sox it's quite difficult to put together a team this awful. And it's not like the Sox are gonna get the No. 1 pick the next few years with the change to that rule. That's hilarious in itself. The Sox can't even time their tanking correctly. Just think if the Sox could get the No. 1 pick the next few years. "Some" fans would be in nirvana year after year. Some of our fans have bought into this tanking thing being a good thing. I'm a little surprised Jerry has gone along with it. I guess he's won enough titles and now it's only about making sure his grandkids and great grandkids are multi millionaires. 

In any other business Robert and Crochet would be seen as must-keep assets. In Sox business they must be traded. Crazy world. That's why I'm in favor of contracting the Sox. See if Chicago can get an expansion team.

 

1 hour ago, greg775 said:

Those 3 Blackhawk titles were fun. It was great to have Crawford in goal. Seems to me if you don't have a super goaltender u ain't winning squat. As far as the White Sox it's quite difficult to put together a team this awful. And it's not like the Sox are gonna get the No. 1 pick the next few years with the change to that rule. That's hilarious in itself. The Sox can't even time their tanking correctly. Just think if the Sox could get the No. 1 pick the next few years. "Some" fans would be in nirvana year after year. Some of our fans have bought into this tanking thing being a good thing. I'm a little surprised Jerry has gone along with it. I guess he's won enough titles and now it's only about making sure his grandkids and great grandkids are multi millionaires. 

In any other business Robert and Crochet would be seen as must-keep assets. In Sox business they must be traded. Crazy world. That's why I'm in favor of contracting the Sox. See if Chicago can get an expansion team.

Your comment about the timing of the tanking just reminds me that sometimes it just seems like the franchise has a dark cloud attached to it.

The recent rebuild was black clouded by COVID and the strike and core pieces being ultra fragile. I mean sure the owner makes decisions that  hurt the franchise so you do make your own luck also but Murphy's Law does seem to have a particular attraction to the Sox .

Now the league steps in and makes major strange changes to the draft  to hurt the Sox again. I don't get it . If you don't like tanking make it a lottery and at least give the worst teams a fair shot at the highest pick. It seems counterproductive to make rules that keep the downtrodden weaker. All kinds of money given out for competitive balance which the Sox don't get and then the anti competitive balance draft rule which seems to be directly aimed at keeping the Sox down.

Too big of a market to get competitive balance money and too weak of a franchise to better itself so the league decides to take away their draft status when they are clearly the worst team. Talk about timing , even when they were tanking during the rebuild the highest pick they could get was 3rd. They couldn't even be a success at being the worst and the minute they succeed at being the worst the league hits them with a new rule.

 

59 minutes ago, baseball_gal_aly said:

 

Moncada was a #1 overall prospect who was acquired by trading one of the best pitchers this organization has ever had. Hes been here 9 years and has delivered exactly 2 seasons worth a s%*#, everything else he might as well be Nicky Lopez. He is 100% going to have his option declined at the end of the year. 

Its pretty laughable to see a "They're pretty much the same guy" take. The only thing they have in common is they constantly get injured, Robert has been a difference maker every time he is on the field. The same cannot be said about Moncada.

 

32 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Your comment about the timing of the tanking just reminds me that sometimes it just seems like the franchise has a dark cloud attached to it.

The recent rebuild was black clouded by COVID and the strike and core pieces being ultra fragile. I mean sure the owner makes decisions that  hurt the franchise so you do make your own luck also but Murphy's Law does seem to have a particular attraction to the Sox .

Now the league steps in and makes major strange changes to the draft  to hurt the Sox again. I don't get it . If you don't like tanking make it a lottery and at least give the worst teams a fair shot at the highest pick. It seems counterproductive to make rules that keep the downtrodden weaker. All kinds of money given out for competitive balance which the Sox don't get and then the anti competitive balance draft rule which seems to be directly aimed at keeping the Sox down.

Too big of a market to get competitive balance money and too weak of a franchise to better itself so the league decides to take away their draft status when they are clearly the worst team. Talk about timing , even when they were tanking during the rebuild the highest pick they could get was 3rd. They couldn't even be a success at being the worst and the minute they succeed at being the worst the league hits them with a new rule.

 

You make valid points which is why the Sox new new ownership that will embrace different aspects (including spending a great deal of money in all areas) to turn this franchise around. "Bad luck" and "targeted decisions against you" can still be overcome by smart people, hiring top talent for the front office and minor league system and spending money on the best free agents, not class C guys. 

3 minutes ago, T R U said:

Moncada was a #1 overall prospect who was acquired by trading one of the best pitchers this organization has ever had. Hes been here 9 years and has delivered exactly 2 seasons worth a s%*#, everything else he might as well be Nicky Lopez. He is 100% going to have his option declined at the end of the year. 

Its pretty laughable to see a "They're pretty much the same guy" take. The only thing they have in common is they constantly get injured, Robert has been a difference maker every time he is on the field. The same cannot be said about Moncada.

 

He pretty much played a full 2020 and was clear RoY favorite until the last 4-6 weeks when he faded terrible and Kyle Lewis of the Mariners kind of took off, but he flashed that huge Mike Trout potential.

So I would go with "showed up" at least 2/5 times, compared to just once.

3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

He pretty much played a full 2020 and was clear RoY favorite until the last 4-6 weeks when he faded terrible and Kyle Lewis of the Mariners kind of took off, but he flashed that huge Mike Trout potential.

So I would go with "showed up" at least 2/5 times, compared to just once.

It depends, if you want to say hes always injured sure thats a discussion point.

He put up 3.6 bWAR in 2021 in 68 games. I don't think that has anything to do with him not delivering on his potential.

PNoles & co. would also be the first to crap on a prospect package that reflected his "Robert is similar to Moncada" tweet.

Tht guy is a fucking b****.  For some reason Twitter/X thought I had to see every one of his tweets. It was very very wrong.  Life to too short to whine and cry that much.  Good lord