Getz 2025 Grade: your vote matters.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 9/30/2025 at 10:34 AM, Kyyle23 said:

You are being super extra in this thread.  Refusing to pick a grade because you can’t pick C- and D+ and then calling out two people specifically for issuing a B?  Odd

I know you are trying to be fair when you say its a long off season so try not to be critical of others grades and just give your own reasons for your grade. Very commendable even though targeting Caufield to enforce it when Ray Ray in just about every thread is always the most highly critical of posters who look on the bright side often citing us  as simpletons being duped by JR or having low standards when its actually just people who see things from a more macro viewpoint and removing embarassment from the equation . He also downplays the structural and cultural changes as costing a small fraction of player payroll and insignificant since the Sox are just playing catchup in these areas . Maybe its not just coincidence that as fans we saw very positives signs from many of  our players . Time will tell if things have truly changed but since this is a 2025 grade 1 + 1 does = 2  when adding up structural and cultural changes to positive player development .

I havent voted yet but for example I havent seen one person mention all the Tommy John surgeries that greatly impacted pitching prospects and the MLB pitching depth in the organization. Some would argue like earlier in the season and without any proof , that it's an indictment of pitching coaches policies or a bad medical staff. Without proof of anything more diabolical going on I'd have to go with bad luck. Most of those injuries happened in 2025 although some may have happened before the calendar  flipped on January 1 so I considered them to be part of 2025. 

There also differences in how big some of  the positives are viewed moving forward. 

Colson going from a downward spiraling minor league career and to many here as a bust to what he became for the Sox this year was HUGE. The Rule 5 pickups of especially Smith but Vasil too was HUGE. The development of all the graduated top prospects and Vargas, Sosa and even the hit /power tool of Baldwin were pretty big too. 

Micro view is 102 losses = F. 

 The Pope being a Sox fan and Ishbia men still on the horizon is good too but I can't give Getz credit for those things. 

[Kyyle23]

30 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I know you are trying to be fair when you say its a long off season so try not to be critical of others grades and just give your own reasons for your grade. Very commendable even though targeting Caufield to enforce it when Ray Ray in just about every thread is always the most highly critical of posters who look on the bright side often citing us  as simpletons being duped by JR or having low standards when its actually just people who see things from a more macro viewpoint and removing embarassment from the equation . He also downplays the structural and cultural changes as costing a small fraction of player payroll and insignificant since the Sox are just playing catchup in these areas . Maybe its not just coincidence that as fans we saw very positives signs from many of  our players . Time will tell if things have truly changed but since this is a 2025 grade 1 + 1 does = 2  when adding up structural and cultural changes to positive player development .

I havent voted yet but for example I havent seen one person mention all the Tommy John surgeries that greatly impacted pitching prospects and the MLB pitching depth in the organization. Some would argue like earlier in the season and without any proof , that it's an indictment of pitching coaches policies or a bad medical staff. Without proof of anything more diabolical going on I'd have to go with bad luck. Most of those injuries happened in 2025 although some may have happened before the calendar  flipped on January 1 so I considered them to be part of 2025. 

There also differences in how big some of  the positives are viewed moving forward. 

Colson going from a downward spiraling minor league career and to many here as a bust to what he became for the Sox this year was HUGE. The Rule 5 pickups of especially Smith but Vasil too was HUGE. The development of all the graduated top prospects and Vargas, Sosa and even the hit /power tool of Baldwin were pretty big too. 

Micro view is 102 losses = F. 

 The Pope being a Sox fan and Ishbia men still on the horizon is good too but I can't give Getz credit for those things. 

I know you think that you understand everything on this board and who I interact with and how I interact with them, and you feel like you can judge how I deal with any of that.  And it’s fine, I’m a big boy I can take it.   If you think everything I do is on this board for everyone to see, you are wrong.  I  interact with plenty of people via PM, including Caulfield, and discuss board issues directly with them, both their issues with me and my issues with them.  I don’t threaten with suspension/banning and I try to be fair with them.  I have noticed in the past that you yourself have gotten annoyed with plenty of posters and called them out, and I let it ride because for the most part it works itself out.  Sometimes, in any thread, certain people will do certain things that irk me and I react to it.    I’m sure you can understand that, knowing everything that you do.  
 

now, Ray can be abrasive and can be argumentative, but no more than any other people on this board and I don’t see him try to call out names that aren’t even part of the conversation as much as others do to him.  THAT is something that I don’t really care for, and I don’t like to deal with the fall out.  Am I guilty of doing that?  Maybe.  I try to deal directly with who I’m talking with and only the people involved with that conversation.  I try not to say things like “Cali is going to come into the thread and psychoanalize it” like Caulfield did earlier.  
 

anyhow, thanks for coming to my TED talk

[WestEddy]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Some would argue like earlier in the season and without any proof , that it's an indictment of pitching coaches policies or a bad medical staff. Without proof of anything more diabolical going on I'd have to go with bad luck. Most of those injuries happened in 2025 although some may have happened before the calendar  flipped on January 1 so I considered them to be part of 2025. 

This was asked about in a SoxMachine P.O.Sox column. It's subscribers only, so no link. 

Quote

6 pitchers showed up to spring training and needed Tommy John Surgery. How much does the organization monitor the off-season regimen of prospects and players under contract in order to manage injury risk? Do other organizations do this? Should they?

I'd imagine the older players are on their own to work out, hit the cages and such, but what about international players? Does the Dominican academy and Arizona complex get a crew to hit the pitching labs and play pickup games?

James: How much do organizations monitor offseason regimens? A lot. Most advanced prospects and big leaguers are training at private facilities but are talking with teams both about their baseball activities and also their lifting and training programs. The bulk of players you’ll find in the team facilities over the winter are rehabbing injuries, but the recent draftees are pulled in for performance camps and other sorts of orientation over the offseason as well. It tends to be younger players or guys who already live near facilities who make use of training at Camelback Ranch or the Dominican Academy over the winter, but that is an option. Lenyn Sosa memorably trained at the Dominican Academy before the 2022 season to get guidance on some major swing changes he was making, but now the location and capacity of the Sox DR academy is part of why they’re replacing it.

But Prelander Berroa blew out during a spring game. Drew Thorpe’s UCL gave way in a backfield game after he had spent most of the spring rehabbing from his surgery from last August. Ky Bush was throwing a bullpen the week before spring started and felt his elbow give out. They didn’t arrive with elbows which happened to be injured that no one knew about until they were in the facility, but got hurt in the ramp-up process that is precisely when pitchers are the most at-risk for these sorts of blowouts. Elbows are still exploding all over the place across baseball, so there are clearly elements of the offseason process that could be improved. But part of the reason the last lockout caused so much anxiety was the absence of offseason monitoring and communication on training between teams and players, which has been the norm now for a while now.

So, something new to worry about when they lockout after next season, I suppose.

 

Edited October 2 by WestEddy

[southsider2k5]

So the team IS setting the off season regiment, and working with the players on them.  Ope.

[caulfield12]

The problem is if you look at all those pitchers that got hurt...none of them were "can't miss" guys.

Blake Larson probably the highest profile, but the Sox almost never have picks succeed from that area of the draft.

Berroa Batista Adams Carela Ky Bush...maybe Thorpe was that Top 100 guy at one point, but there was a massive board debate whether he had enough of a FB to be viable before the injuries.

[WestEddy]

8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

So the team IS setting the off season regiment, and working with the players on them.  Ope.

So you're saying it's very noble of me to post something that disproves a belief of mine...

[Kyyle23]

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

The problem is if you look at all those pitchers that got hurt...none of them were "can't miss" guys.

Blake Larson probably the highest profile, but the Sox almost never have picks succeed from that area of the draft.

Berroa Batista Adams Carela Ky Bush...maybe Thorpe was that Top 100 guy at one point, but there was a massive board debate whether he had enough of a FB to be viable before the injuries.

That’s fair, but hopefully they can get a few serviceable bullpen arms that we didn’t expect.  That’s something we really miss on this team is a no name reliever that all the sudden is an anchor in your bullpen.  It seems like other teams can find them, and the Sox cannot 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Wow, im creating a little fan club of my own here. Happy to give purpose!

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

The problem is if you look at all those pitchers that got hurt...none of them were "can't miss" guys.

Blake Larson probably the highest profile, but the Sox almost never have picks succeed from that area of the draft.

Berroa Batista Adams Carela Ky Bush...maybe Thorpe was that Top 100 guy at one point, but there was a massive board debate whether he had enough of a FB to be viable before the injuries.

Thorpe actually probably hurt the worst, as he was a guy who had decent potential depending on how much you believe that change can play in the majors. and now you not only lost that development time, but also a year to a year and a half of control for nothing.  

[nrockway]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

The problem is if you look at all those pitchers that got hurt...none of them were "can't miss" guys.

Blake Larson probably the highest profile, but the Sox almost never have picks succeed from that area of the draft.

Berroa Batista Adams Carela Ky Bush...maybe Thorpe was that Top 100 guy at one point, but there was a massive board debate whether he had enough of a FB to be viable before the injuries.

I think if he mixed in a sinker he'd look better. But he's doomed if he's a 'changeup pitcher' (his changeup is +++) and his four seamer continues to get slugged at .566. His BA against on the four seamer isn't horrific (.245) but it gets hit way too hard before he even has a chance to throw the change. 37.9% whiff rate on the changeup, 28% on the slider,  7.7% on 4seam, 7.1 on the cutter. Changeup doesn't play as well off a sinker, but if he's a 'kitchen sink' kinda guy, maybe he can get batters out of a rhythm where they're not simply waiting on the very hittable 4 seamer. Or somehow he improves it, I just don't get how he would.

Which is why I like Shane Murphy better than Thorpe, both are soft tossers but Murphy's repertoire is larger and more varied. I think Thorpe benefits from a fastball that moves more even if it weakens his change. 

[Timmy U]

3 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

The problem is if you look at all those pitchers that got hurt...none of them were "can't miss" guys.

Blake Larson probably the highest profile, but the Sox almost never have picks succeed from that area of the draft.

I don't know if that's fair, especially for pitchers. I mean, Oppor and McDougal are both 5th rounders and they should be fringe Top 100 guys right now just based on stuff. The good news is that, like McDougal, even with TJS they have a lot of time to develop Larson. I would be surprised if he saw full season ball next year, but he doesn't turn 21 until 2027.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 10/2/2025 at 2:37 PM, caulfield12 said:

The problem is if you look at all those pitchers that got hurt...none of them were "can't miss" guys.

Blake Larson probably the highest profile, but the Sox almost never have picks succeed from that area of the draft.

Berroa Batista Adams Carela Ky Bush...maybe Thorpe was that Top 100 guy at one point, but there was a massive board debate whether he had enough of a FB to be viable before the injuries.

There's massive board debates about everything and many many times the majority opinion is wrong so debate alone means nothing except people usually argue playing odds that injury prone players usually continue that way because they know nothing about what goes on behind the scenes, players determinations, talent, adaptability . 

Like with Crochet we all knew he had an arm but we also knew he got hurt a lot. What no one knew is that he was maturing physically into this huge strong man while rehabbing and working very diligetly into becoming a starting pitcher . This included the Sox being supportive and working with him to develop him to the point where it was shocking to most of us that he was named the opening day starter and he continued to defy all odds regarding health and adapt and refine his pitch mix . 

So even when we had all the evidence in the world that the new front office regime might know what they're doing many refused to give them credit for developing him. It was 100 % all Crochet which is of course a sad, ridiculous argument to make. You could argue that prospect success or failure has a lot to do with the player based on the things physical , mental & character traits I mentioned earlier but not 100 % especially when the same people are super quick on the trigger to call the team out for development failures as if its all on them and players are just moldable pieces of clay whose success or failure is solely based on their coaching.

The butt hurt of 2024 ran so deep some could never admit the new regime could do anything right or you might get labeled a Getz supporter. God forbid someone who, as a lackey under a previous hierarchy, could actually make good decisions regarding player development and building an infrastructure to help a Crochet ,Montgomery overcome the odds that despite setbacks prospects are not always busts when deemed so by Soxtalk experts. 

Will it work with every player ? Of course not but if we are going to rip on management that they always suck with scouting and development and doubt that a new regime is any different from the old one under the same owner I'd expect credit to be given when it is due. Sadly most stick to their old tired arguments by just kicking the can down the road of "I need  more proof before I think anything has changed" while they still blast everything they can in their ignorant and bitter sight . 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 10/2/2025 at 4:13 PM, nrockway said:

I think if he mixed in a sinker he'd look better. But he's doomed if he's a 'changeup pitcher' (his changeup is +++) and his four seamer continues to get slugged at .566. His BA against on the four seamer isn't horrific (.245) but it gets hit way too hard before he even has a chance to throw the change. 37.9% whiff rate on the changeup, 28% on the slider,  7.7% on 4seam, 7.1 on the cutter. Changeup doesn't play as well off a sinker, but if he's a 'kitchen sink' kinda guy, maybe he can get batters out of a rhythm where they're not simply waiting on the very hittable 4 seamer. Or somehow he improves it, I just don't get how he would.

Which is why I like Shane Murphy better than Thorpe, both are soft tossers but Murphy's repertoire is larger and more varied. I think Thorpe benefits from a fastball that moves more even if it weakens his change. 

From what very little I know of Thorpe he seems like a pitcher well aware of his limitations who had reached a very high level despite those limitations. 

Now him and his coaches will do their best to see if he has what it takes to succeed in the biggest hurdle of all.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 10/2/2025 at 2:37 PM, caulfield12 said:

The problem is if you look at all those pitchers that got hurt...none of them were "can't miss" guys.

Blake Larson probably the highest profile, but the Sox almost never have picks succeed from that area of the draft.

Berroa Batista Adams Carela Ky Bush...maybe Thorpe was that Top 100 guy at one point, but there was a massive board debate whether he had enough of a FB to be viable before the injuries.

Seriously who and what are can't miss guys ? 

Even can't miss guys miss all the time.

How many can't miss prospects are there right now ? Can you name 12 or so who haven't progressed beyond A ball yet ? Surely it must be easy to name 12 can't missers among so many not yet beyond A ball . 

[Princess Dye]

[caulfield12]

6 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Seriously who and what are can't miss guys ? 

Even can't miss guys miss all the time.

How many can't miss prospects are there right now ? Can you name 12 or so who haven't progressed beyond A ball yet ? Surely it must be easy to name 12 can't missers among so many not yet beyond A ball . 

It's those guys like Schultz Smith and Taylor expected to impact the major league roster, quite obviously.

That make Top 10/100 lists with frequency.

Thorpe was the only one with that petigree.

In fact, you could argue that at least half if the injuries were to non "stuff" guys who are struggling to impact major league roster in this era of starters with FBs in the 96-100 range.

 

We can argue Oppor and McDougal and guys like that...but if you don't consistently hit at least 40-50% with your very best pitching projects, you're in trouble.

The Sox succeeded in 2005 not because of their previous #1 system but also due to Contreras and Garcia...only Buehrle (non hyped) and Garland made it.

Same with that recent class of 2016-2020...you had Rodon Giolito Cease Crochet (after 3-4 years) but also lacking results from Kopech and Lopez and not nearly the quality depth required behind that first wave of pitching to sustain losses of guys like Rodon as they hit FA.

Plus the first round focus on hitters...Madrigal Vaughn Burger.

[southsider2k5]

13 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

It's those guys like Schultz Smith and Taylor expected to impact the major league roster, quite obviously.

That make Top 10/100 lists with frequency.

Thorpe was the only one with that petigree.

In fact, you could argue that at least half if the injuries were to non "stuff" guys who are struggling to impact major league roster in this era of starters with FBs in the 96-100 range.

 

We can argue Oppor and McDougal and guys like that...but if you don't consistently hit at least 40-50% with your very best pitching projects, you're in trouble.

The Sox succeeded in 2005 not because of their previous #1 system but also due to Contreras and Garcia...only Buehrle (non hyped) and Garland made it.

Same with that recent class of 2016-2020...you had Rodon Giolito Cease Crochet (after 3-4 years) but also lacking results from Kopech and Lopez and not nearly the quality depth required behind that first wave of pitching to sustain losses of guys like Rodon as they hit FA.

Plus the first round focus on hitters...Madrigal Vaughn Burger.

Everybody fails is a helluva argument, immediately to be followed up by here is all of the times you were wrong.  Honestly, it is just plain sad.  None of us are paid to be successful in baseball.  Maybe if we had the same standards for those employed by the White Sox as some do for fans on a message board, this franchise would hold itself to a higher standard?  Nah.  Forget it.  Too crazy.

Welp, back to those hurt feelings!

[WestEddy]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

It's those guys like Schultz Smith and Taylor expected to impact the major league roster, quite obviously.

That make Top 10/100 lists with frequency.

Thorpe was the only one with that petigree.

In fact, you could argue that at least half if the injuries were to non "stuff" guys who are struggling to impact major league roster in this era of starters with FBs in the 96-100 range.

 

We can argue Oppor and McDougal and guys like that...but if you don't consistently hit at least 40-50% with your very best pitching projects, you're in trouble.

The Sox succeeded in 2005 not because of their previous #1 system but also due to Contreras and Garcia...only Buehrle (non hyped) and Garland made it.

Same with that recent class of 2016-2020...you had Rodon Giolito Cease Crochet (after 3-4 years) but also lacking results from Kopech and Lopez and not nearly the quality depth required behind that first wave of pitching to sustain losses of guys like Rodon as they hit FA.

Plus the first round focus on hitters...Madrigal Vaughn Burger.

I can't figure out what's being argued here. I think you generally get anxious over the lack of top ten (in the game) pitching prospects, and you want the Sox to obtain/develop their pitching prospects to be considered best in the game with no chance of failure before you'll recognize the Sox are doing a good job developing pitching. You're not "saying" this, but that's what I glean from your posts. 

There are currently no pitching prospects in the MLB top ten, and only ten pitchers that rank above Noah Schultz at 40. He got up to 16 on that list but fell back due to injuries this season. 

[caulfield12]

"you want the Sox to obtain/develop their pitching prospects to be considered best in the game"

They have all three gone backwards in progression if that was the goal.

 

Ofc have to get to at least average starting pitching and average hitting to even have a puncher's chance.

Nobody is talking some so-called elite staff right now.

Walking before you crawl.

But that still leaves speed, defense, execution/fundamentals/hitting with RISP, bullpen, Venable where they have to make up the difference.

Somehow.

The Twins selling off Buxton Lopez Ryan gets them to fourth place.

Probably.

[caulfield12]

"you want the Sox to obtain/develop their pitching prospects to be considered best in the game"

They have all three gone backwards in progression if that was the goal.

 

Ofc have to get to at least average starting pitching and average hitting to even have a puncher's chance.

Nobody is talking some so-called elite staff right now.

Walking before you crawl.

But that still leaves speed, defense, execution/fundamentals/hitting with RISP, bullpen, Venable where they have to make up the difference.

Somehow.

The Twins selling off Buxton Lopez Ryan gets them to fourth place.

Probably.

[caulfield12]

The White Sox were last in outing length from starting pitchers in the major leagues in 2025.

Part of that was openers, but when you have so many innings covered by one of the worst bullpens in baseball, that's probably not a good thing.

 

141 starts from regular rotation members and 21 spot starts/openers from the bullpen.

Led by 5 from Gilbert...3 Vasil.

Edited October 8 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Ironic that former hitting coach/ex player "Greg Walker" gave Getz his only A so far...😄

[WestEddy]

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

"you want the Sox to obtain/develop their pitching prospects to be considered best in the game"

They have all three gone backwards in progression if that was the goal.

 

Ofc have to get to at least average starting pitching and average hitting to even have a puncher's chance.

Nobody is talking some so-called elite staff right now.

Walking before you crawl.

But that still leaves speed, defense, execution/fundamentals/hitting with RISP, bullpen, Venable where they have to make up the difference.

Somehow.

The Twins selling off Buxton Lopez Ryan gets them to fourth place.

Probably.

Again, I'm still not getting where you're going with all this. Yeah, teams need good players to win. Profound. 

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Again, I'm still not getting where you're going with all this. Yeah, teams need good players to win. Profound. 

Again...a Top 3-5 MiLB system is much better than #16-20.

Shocking stuff here, certainly.

I don't know what's being argued either at this point...that we should completely disregard prospect rankings because many will bust?

Or that the White Sox system as it currently stands is criminally underrated because we don't know all the wonderful things happening behind the scenes?

 

[WestEddy]

5 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Again...a Top 3-5 MiLB system is much better than #16-20.

Shocking stuff here, certainly.

I don't know what's being argued either at this point...that we should completely disregard prospect rankings because many will bust?

Or that the White Sox system as it currently stands is criminally underrated because we don't know all the wonderful things happening behind the scenes?

 

Correct, a top ranked farm system will probably produce more major league stars than the lowest ranked system. No, not shocking, so we should probably stop presenting it like we invented the concept of number "one" being a good rank to have. 

I don't think we should disregard prospect rankings "because many will bust". I think they should be seen more as a snapshot in time of individual player pedigrees, and not of the system as a whole. We just graduated 3-4 top 100 prospects, which makes the system ranking take a hit. Our top pitcher was injured, another needed work on his mechanics, while a third prospect played across 3 levels and didn't mash at the highest level he attained. That also was a hit to the ranking. 4 other starters just had TJS that delays their careers for 18 months. Another hit. 

Did our minor league system suddenly become bad? No. Did Schultz, Hagen Smith and B. Monty suddenly drop off and are no longer considered prospects? Of course not. But because of the nature of ranking systems, they need to look at healthy, pedigreed dudes who are dominating their current, age-appropriate level, and declare who has an elite system from that. 

Is it unfair? I wouldn't say that. We just drafted an elite defense shortstop who could be a stud if suggested hitting tweaks are made. We also plucked an elite high school bat that will also rank once he produces at any level. But their true potential remains to be seen, so that's a drag on the overall ranking. Every other system experiences the same ebb and flow, so a #19 ranking has so many moving parts.

Colson was dropping, but he just put up 3.3 bWAR in less than half a season. To paraphrase another poster, here, minor league rankings don't win World Series. Players putting up 6 WAR seasons in the majors do.