BigSqwert Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 26, 2009 -> 01:43 AM) How the heck is Lee a finesse pitcher? Lee has very good stuff for a lefty. He might not throw 96 but he's got great stuff. Dan Haren doesn't throw super hard, Mark Buehrle doesn't. Give me a break. The guy won the Cy Young in the AL, you don't do that by sucking. I'm assuming his lumping him in the Esteban Loaiza category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (santo=dorf @ Jul 25, 2009 -> 05:50 PM) Haren is an elite pitcher. Floyd is not. Haren gives us a much better chance to win a game than Floyd does. If Floyd is the only guy on our 25 man roster we'd be giving up (with the exception of Pena and Wise,) I'd pull the trigger. It's a better deal than going after Halladay You hate Floyd, I love Floyd - I still agree with this. Haren gives you a chance to win every game, except for the occasional blow up, and he's more than likely going to put you in a position to win every game. Floyd blows up more than that, puts you into a position to win a game about as much, and gives you a chance to win the other half. Going from Haren to Floyd in the rotation would be a monstrosity of an upgrade, and would be well worth it. That said, I'll snort a pixie stick, video tape it, and post it on here if it happens (and that's only if it includes Gavin). The Sox have no need to scout Haren. I would say if they are trying to acquire Haren, Poreda and Richard are quite obviously involved, and they would also be looking to acquire Doug Davis as well, even if he'd get his s*** lit up in the AL. Edited July 26, 2009 by witesoxfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jul 26, 2009 -> 12:26 AM) How is Cliff Lee a finesse pitcher? He changes speeds to enhance the stuff he has which is already good as it is. The definition of a finesse pitcher. He's got decent stuff, but his success comes from changing speeds and good location. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmywins1 Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 He's a lefty who averages 91mph on the fastball, he's got good stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Hates Prospects Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 QUOTE (BearSox @ Jul 26, 2009 -> 09:52 AM) The definition of a finesse pitcher. He's got decent stuff, but his success comes from changing speeds and good location. So wait, now anyone who changes speeds is a finesse guy? I don't understand that. That's what pitchers are supposed to do, i.e. pitch and not throw. So because he uses his intelligence go from an average or below pitcher with good stuff to an ace, now you don't want him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco72 Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 25, 2009 -> 05:47 PM) Trading Jordan Danks still causes major league difficulties. We have to hold him and give him a shot unless we're dealing both Danks. I'd be willing to part with Floyd in a Haren deal. But really...not much more than Floyd. I've seen this argument alot over the last month or so when trades are discussed. I just don't buy it. If KW uses Jordan Danks to get an ACE pitcher, Jon Danks is going to be so upset that he won't sign an extension with the Sox? Or he'll just become a puddle of mush and fall apart the rest of the season? Jordan Danks' biggest value to the Sox is the position he plays and the hope that he can solve the "CF Problem" going forward, not some bargaining chip for his brother's future with the team. I think KW can and would trade Jordan Danks if the right deal came along - such as one for a legit ace. QUOTE (wilmot825 @ Jul 25, 2009 -> 06:21 PM) Giving up Floyd and adding Haren does not solve the 5th starter problem....we need to keep Floyd, Danks, and Buehrle. Trade Poreda and Richard Another argument that I disagree with - the so-called "5th starter" problem. Richard has had some bad starts sandwiched in between some good to very good starts. Richard, Torres, and Colon all pitched well in their last starts. The Sox have options at the #5 spot, and it is not currently a problem. The problem is bad play, especially on defense, the offense not showing up lately, and the bullpen collectively sucking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 26, 2009 -> 01:43 AM) How the heck is Lee a finesse pitcher? Lee has very good stuff for a lefty. He might not throw 96 but he's got great stuff. Dan Haren doesn't throw super hard, Mark Buehrle doesn't. Give me a break. The guy won the Cy Young in the AL, you don't do that by sucking. Dan Haren has MUCH better stuff than both Lee and Buehrle. Yeah, he won the Cy Young. He had a great year last year. But I still don't see him winning much more, and I wouldn't pay him top dollar or top prospects for in a trade. I'm not saying he isn't good, he's a solid pitcher. I just don't see him as an ace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jul 26, 2009 -> 12:26 AM) How is Cliff Lee a finesse pitcher? QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 26, 2009 -> 01:43 AM) How the heck is Lee a finesse pitcher? The definition of finesse pitcher by multiple sources is someone who walks and Ks less than 24% of all batters they face, which Lee has done for the past five years. I'm not saying that makes him more or less valuable, but bearsox is right about Lee being finesse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Finesse pitchers suck; they hardly ever throw a perfect game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatScott82 Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Dan Haren is an ACE. If you trade Floyd for him and throw in a Poreda and 2 other mid-level prospects, you would have to think Arizona would consider it. The Sox would be set up for the next 2.5 seasons with Buerhle, Haren, Danks as your top 3 starters. Thats solid!!! You would have to make this move if your the White Sox. I'm impressed with Floyd's progress over the past 2 seasons, but we all know, you have to give up something to get something. And Haren is definitley something. In fact he is IMO the 2nd best pitcher in the NL right behind Lincecum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisoxfan09 Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 (edited) Dan Haren is an ACE. If you trade Floyd for him and throw in a Poreda and 2 other mid-level prospects, you would have to think Arizona would consider it. The Sox would be set up for the next 2.5 seasons with Buerhle, Haren, Danks as your top 3 starters. Thats solid!!! You would have to make this move if your the White Sox. I'm impressed with Floyd's progress over the past 2 seasons, but we all know, you have to give up something to get something. And Haren is definitley something. In fact he is IMO the 2nd best pitcher in the NL right behind Lincecum. Yup have to agree 100% here. IN fact with Haren and Buerhle pitching good years from now until 2011 you are almost guaranteed 35-40 wins a season which in the weal AL Central is about 40% of the wins you need to win the division. It is definitely an awesome 1-2 punch and the rest can be filled in by Danks and then whoever for 4-5. Having 2 Aces makes the backend argument more digestable. If Danks keeps strong he is gonna give you 15-17 wins a year so the count goes up to 50-55 that should be in the W column. Just babbling on my part but you have some interesting youngsters who will be ready IMO for a September callup next year. Poreda and Huddi should get a great look when they finish AA/AAA next year. Edited July 26, 2009 by chisoxfan09 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Personally, I'd rather have Floyd and Flowers than Haren. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 I'd blow my wad if we got Haren. No brainer to trade Floyd for him IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 QUOTE (Felix @ Jul 25, 2009 -> 11:52 PM) Haren >>>>>> Floyd I'm all for this move if it doesn't cost one of the untouchable prospects in the system (such as Flowers), which I kind of doubt. The difference between him and Floyd is massive though, and Haren would be a fantastic upgrade to our rotation. There are no untouchables in our system, the only one was Beckham. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 The key is who or what are the D backs looking for, IF [a big one] they do trade Haren. My guess is it wouldn't even happen until the offseason, as they haven't really seemed to be taking offers on him, like Toronto and the Indians are doing for their aces. If it's pitching, then a deal starting with Floyd and Poreda as the two centerpieces would make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 If AZ trades Haren, their GM should immediately be fired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 QUOTE (knightni @ Jul 26, 2009 -> 12:13 PM) Personally, I'd rather have Floyd and Flowers than Haren. Floyd and Flowers...yeah, probably rather have the 2 of them...because I'm looking ahead 1.5 seasons and seeing a big hole at catcher if we do trade Flowers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkin Escobar Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Anything not named Quentin, Beckham, Danks, Alexi shouldn't be dealt...Well I guess Danks can be since there is a Jordan. Floyd I usually lump in that category because even though I think Haren is much better - people are right in the sense that it is a little counter-productive. If you can't get Haren without Floyd in the deal - then so be it. Put in Floyd and get Haren. Knowing Kennyhe can probably just deal them some prospects for Floyd next season when theyre our of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Gulp...if the value is good, I'd consider trading Quentin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkin Escobar Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 26, 2009 -> 05:30 PM) Gulp...if the value is good, I'd consider trading Quentin. I hear that. I wouldn't be opposed to it if it brought back a very similar in age/$, less injury prone, mlb proven player just because of the risk associated with his inability to remain on the field. But we'll be hard pressed to find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 26, 2009 -> 03:30 PM) Gulp...if the value is good, I'd consider trading Quentin. Quentin for Haren? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 26, 2009 -> 10:39 PM) Quentin for Haren? I'd have no problem giving him up for the right player, as long as it's not a rental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 QUOTE (Pumpkin Escobar @ Jul 26, 2009 -> 03:37 PM) I hear that. I wouldn't be opposed to it if it brought back a very similar in age/$, less injury prone, mlb proven player just because of the risk associated with his inability to remain on the field. But we'll be hard pressed to find it. Reality is...Quentin's back currently in the same boat he was when Arizona traded him; his value is depressed because of injury, so the other team you're trading with would expect to get him at a discount. Which means it's not the time you want to trade him, unless it's the other guy offering something stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkin Escobar Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 26, 2009 -> 05:40 PM) Reality is...Quentin's back currently in the same boat he was when Arizona traded him; his value is depressed because of injury, so the other team you're trading with would expect to get him at a discount. Which means it's not the time you want to trade him, unless it's the other guy offering something stupid. Exactly. I think Beckham is as close to "untouchable" as we have. I always use this term and see it used but there is few true untouchables I feel like. The guys we have aren't untouchable - it's just they won't get the value in return which we have for them. So although I say there isn't a whole lot of point in dealing a Quentin, Danks, Beckham - I really mean that I doubt they'll be able to get their worth in trade and its pointless to deal them. In Quentins case - if he can land a Haren. I'd be torn but I'd probably cave. It's easier to find an OF then it is an Ace. And hemay very well be an MVP talent OF but you still take the Cy Young caliber ace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 26, 2009 -> 05:30 PM) Gulp...if the value is good, I'd consider trading Quentin. You'd be selling really low. Although I don't see how Arizona can refuse him. They were already wrong on him once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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