The 2010 DH Slot -- What it is, what it isn't

[CyAcosta41]

Hello. Long-time Sox fanatic -- just over 50 years old, Chicago native, actually a fanatic about all things baseball, but of course reserve the true love for my favorite two teams, the White Sox and anybody who happens to be playing the Schlubbies.

 

I've followed Soxtalk for many years, but have always preferred to read and be entertained, rather than posting myself. From talking to my friends and family, there are a lot of zealous Sox fans with a similar mindset. And kudos to Soxtalk, because almost all of these similarly inclined lurkers seem to greatly prefer Soxtalk to the competition.

 

So, what brings me out of lurking? I suppose I'm increasingly bothered by many avid fans, and the media, mischaracterizing what the 2010 DH slot is all about. This mischaracterization or misunderstanding has been around since the very day the flexible DH approach became news. Some of the problem might have something to do with the continuing adventures with Ozzie-speak. We've all seen how some baseball subtleties sometime get lost in translating Ozzie-speak into everyday English.

 

Without further windup, here's the gist of my issue -- I would be as worried about the 2010 DH Slot as anybody, IF I actually thought that DH at-bats for 2010 were going to be substantially divided just between Jones, Kotsay, and our new #11. We seem to be hearing so many Sox fans saying just this, including very intelligent fans who follow the Sox and baseball closely. The media regularly addresses this same supposed concern. Just today, in David Haugh's column advancing the position that the Sox should keep Beckham and not include him in any A-Gonzalez trade (couldn't agree with this more), Haugh lists other keys to 2010 success, including: "And the spotty DH trio of Mark Kotsay-Andruw Jones-Omar Vizquel has to justify Guillen's odd faith."

 

DH trio? Nonsense. I'm not sure whether people just enjoy a good straw-man argument, or whether they just don't want to take a moment to consider the full picture before reacting. Never once have I heard Guillen, Williams, or anyone within the White Sox organization say that this "trio" is your 2010 DH by committee. In fact, all of the DH discussion, in tandem with the more general discussion of roster flexibility, fluidity, interchangeability (call it what you will), has said exactly the opposite -- that a large number of Sox players will see significant time at DH in the 2010 season, as players rotate through that position AND in the field.

 

I fully expect that the trio of Jones, Kotsay, and Vizquel will see time at DH. Absolutely. However, and everyone can make their own guess, I'd imagine that we'll see Quentin as DH in somewhere between 25-30 games, Pierre for 25-30, Konerko for 15-20, AJ for 15-20, and Beckham, Ramirez, and Teahen for 5-10 each. So, do the math and for somewhere between 80-100 games, someone other than the "dreaded" Jones, Kotsay, Vizquel trio will man the DH slot. Yes, the remaining 60-80 games will feature one of the three as the DH, but not to open a different can o' worms, each of these players do bring certain talents to the table and using them periodically in this way also allows them to perform better when they are filling-in for a resting starter, pinch-hitting, or whatever.

 

And this latter point is what this whole flexibility idea is all about. I'm pretty certain we get the best overall performance and stats out of players like Quentin, Pierre, Konerko, and AJ if we get them off the field from time-to-time and "rest" them by a couple of days R&R in the DH role. Granted, managing this will be a bit of a logistical headache, but I think the theory is sound. In fact, I like the theory a lot for this mix of players. I think the Sox are much better off maximizing the performance level of players like Quentin, Pierre, Konerko, and AJ (insuring the occasionally needed rest, minimizing injury risk, optimizing the skill set of each for when they are on the field), rather than plugging in plodders like the current-day versions of Thome and Dye (and I love both of these guys -- just not for THIS team). Would I rather we have Adrian Gonzalez or Adam Dunn as the needed LH power bat and thereby slide Konerko or Dunn to more or less full-time DH? Of course. But in a world of limited resources, we don't have these guys (at least not now), so our plan needs to be maximizing what we do have. And in that regard, having a 7-10 player DH rotation (including some darned fine offensive ballplayers in that mix for a majority of the games) is a decent enough plan.

 

I understand how some might greatly prefer the one stud DH. We don't have that guy now, nor do I think we get him by trade without giving up more than I'd personally be willing to give up. But for all of those upset with the flexible DH alternative, it might ease your concerns a bit if you analyze it for what it is, rather than for what it isn't (and it isn't DH limited to the trio of Jones, Kotsay, and Vizquel).

[Kyyle23]

Welcome to the board!

[Jordan4life_2007]

Hello. Long-time Sox fanatic -- just over 50 years old, Chicago native, actually a fanatic about all things baseball, but of course reserve the true love for my favorite two teams, the White Sox and anybody who happens to be playing the Schlubbies.

 

I've followed Soxtalk for many years, but have always preferred to read and be entertained, rather than posting myself. From talking to my friends and family, there are a lot of zealous Sox fans with a similar mindset. And kudos to Soxtalk, because almost all of these similarly inclined lurkers seem to greatly prefer Soxtalk to the competition.

 

So, what brings me out of lurking? I suppose I'm increasingly bothered by many avid fans, and the media, mischaracterizing what the 2010 DH slot is all about. This mischaracterization or misunderstanding has been around since the very day the flexible DH approach became news. Some of the problem might have something to do with the continuing adventures with Ozzie-speak. We've all seen how some baseball subtleties sometime get lost in translating Ozzie-speak into everyday English.

 

Without further windup, here's the gist of my issue -- I would be as worried about the 2010 DH Slot as anybody, IF I actually thought that DH at-bats for 2010 were going to be substantially divided just between Jones, Kotsay, and our new #11. We seem to be hearing so many Sox fans saying just this, including very intelligent fans who follow the Sox and baseball closely. The media regularly addresses this same supposed concern. Just today, in David Haugh's column advancing the position that the Sox should keep Beckham and not include him in any A-Gonzalez trade (couldn't agree with this more), Haugh lists other keys to 2010 success, including: "And the spotty DH trio of Mark Kotsay-Andruw Jones-Omar Vizquel has to justify Guillen's odd faith."

 

DH trio? Nonsense. I'm not sure whether people just enjoy a good straw-man argument, or whether they just don't want to take a moment to consider the full picture before reacting. Never once have I heard Guillen, Williams, or anyone within the White Sox organization say that this "trio" is your 2010 DH by committee. In fact, all of the DH discussion, in tandem with the more general discussion of roster flexibility, fluidity, interchangeability (call it what you will), has said exactly the opposite -- that a large number of Sox players will see significant time at DH in the 2010 season, as players rotate through that position AND in the field.

 

I fully expect that the trio of Jones, Kotsay, and Vizquel will see time at DH. Absolutely. However, and everyone can make their own guess, I'd imagine that we'll see Quentin as DH in somewhere between 25-30 games, Pierre for 25-30, Konerko for 15-20, AJ for 15-20, and Beckham, Ramirez, and Teahen for 5-10 each. So, do the math and for somewhere between 80-100 games, someone other than the "dreaded" Jones, Kotsay, Vizquel trio will man the DH slot. Yes, the remaining 60-80 games will feature one of the three as the DH, but not to open a different can o' worms, each of these players do bring certain talents to the table and using them periodically in this way also allows them to perform better when they are filling-in for a resting starter, pinch-hitting, or whatever.

 

And this latter point is what this whole flexibility idea is all about. I'm pretty certain we get the best overall performance and stats out of players like Quentin, Pierre, Konerko, and AJ if we get them off the field from time-to-time and "rest" them by a couple of days R&R in the DH role. Granted, managing this will be a bit of a logistical headache, but I think the theory is sound. In fact, I like the theory a lot for this mix of players. I think the Sox are much better off maximizing the performance level of players like Quentin, Pierre, Konerko, and AJ (insuring the occasionally needed rest, minimizing injury risk, optimizing the skill set of each for when they are on the field), rather than plugging in plodders like the current-day versions of Thome and Dye (and I love both of these guys -- just not for THIS team). Would I rather we have Adrian Gonzalez or Adam Dunn as the needed LH power bat and thereby slide Konerko or Dunn to more or less full-time DH? Of course. But in a world of limited resources, we don't have these guys (at least not now), so our plan needs to be maximizing what we do have. And in that regard, having a 7-10 player DH rotation (including some darned fine offensive ballplayers in that mix for a majority of the games) is a decent enough plan.

 

I understand how some might greatly prefer the one stud DH. We don't have that guy now, nor do I think we get him by trade without giving up more than I'd personally be willing to give up. But for all of those upset with the flexible DH alternative, it might ease your concerns a bit if you analyze it for what it is, rather than for what it isn't (and it isn't DH limited to the trio of Jones, Kotsay, and Vizquel).

 

But it was a damn good (it really was) post.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Wow, nice entrance.

 

By the way, if Viciedo and Flowers have good seasons this year in AAA, I think 2011 we'll see some better potential from that slot. If Retherford is on the team in a utility role in 2011, you can feel comfortable making Flowers your DH for some of the time, while relieving AJ occasionally, and have Viciedo be your 1B of the future.

 

[Hawkfan]

Good post, but does not alleviate my worries.

[striker]

Welcome aboard! I personally don't have any problem with Ozzie's approach with DH. I agree that this approach should help with our players second half performances, which was the problem last year not talent. And if this approach doesn't work I'm sure KW will do something to fix it.

[Rowand44]

It's a well thought out post but the point still remains, if CQ is dh'ing than Andruw Jones is still in the lineup. If Konerko is dh'in than Mark Kotsay is still in the lineup. And as far as letting some of the regulars get some rest, well that's what having a bench is for. Vizquel, Kotsay and Jones are fine bench players and I'm fine with them relieving a starter every now and than but having one of them in the lineup everyday is just unacceptable.

[greg775]

Good post. I disagree with some of it, but I think it is a solid argument. Great stuff.

[2nd_city_saint787]

great read. I for one actually like a Jones/Omar DH by committee so to speak. Like you said they each bring something different to the table, when Omars in the lineup Id like to see him in the 2 spot and move Gordo down in the lineup to get the power/ability to drive in runners, and then when jones is in the lineup you keep Gordo in the 2 and have jones in the middle of the lineup to play the power role.

 

I like these lineups

 

JP/GB/Q/PK/MT/AR/AJ/AP/AR

 

JP/OV/Q/PK/MT/GB/AR/AP/AR

 

or to give Q some rest

 

JP/OV/GB/PK/MT/AR/AJ/AP/AR

 

then when PK needs rest

 

JP/OV/GB/Q/MT/AR/AJ/AP/AR EITHER PUT OMAR AT 3RD OR PUT GORDO BACK THERE AND PUT OMAR AT 2ND

 

I COULD GO ON AND ON IF YOU WANT ME TO

Edited March 3, 2010 by 2nd_city_saint787

[Rowand44]

great read. I for one actually like a Jones/Omar DH by committee so to speak. Like you said they each bring something different to the table, when Omars in the lineup Id like to see him in the 2 spot and move Gordo down in the lineup to get the power/ability to drive in runners, and then when jones is in the lineup you keep Gordo in the 2 and have jones in the middle of the lineup to play the power role.

 

I like these lineups

 

JP/GB/Q/PK/MT/AR/AJ/AP/AR

 

JP/OV/Q/PK/MT/GB/AR/AP/AR

You really want Pierre AND Vizquel in front of Q? Might as well just bat Q leadoff cause there would never be anyone on base with Pierre and Vizquel in front of him.

[Steve9347]

It is bad. It isn't good.

[CyAcosta41]

It's a well thought out post but the point still remains, if CQ is dh'ing than Andruw Jones is still in the lineup. If Konerko is dh'in than Mark Kotsay is still in the lineup. And as far as letting some of the regulars get some rest, well that's what having a bench is for. Vizquel, Kotsay and Jones are fine bench players and I'm fine with them relieving a starter every now and than but having one of them in the lineup everyday is just unacceptable.

 

And it's because I think that Jones, Kotsay, and Vizquel are indeed fine bench players (Nix too, for that matter) that I really like this plan. I want CQ's and PK's bat in the lineup 155+ games this season, but I don't want them on the field that often. This way, we rest CQ, PK, and AJ principally, but also Gordon, Alexei, and Teahen occasionally. Doing this maximizes their individual capabilities, and therefore the team's. Your bench players of the world are always going to get 150-250 AB's. They're on the team, they're the best we have (it's a different debate as to whether we SHOULD have better), and, frankly, I like having all of them on our bench for what they're capable of doing for us. Sure, they're a downgrade from our starters. I would hope so. No team in baseball -- Yankmes and Red Sawx included, have bench players as good as the starters. In fact, checking the rosters of those two "money is no object teams," they've had their share of dog bench players over the years. But, it's just that -- our bench are not dog players. Last year we had Betemit and Lillibridge and Anderson and Fields. Wow. Yuck. I'm thrilled about the upgrade, including adding a hopefully more experienced and wiser version of Nix to the mix.

 

I see your point, but I think I disagree as a matter of degree. I see no problem whatsoever in having one of them in the lineup every day. Used based on match-ups, streaks, and for resting strategy, this maximizes the performance of the bench players and the starters alike. In theory, it keeps everyone "in the game" and ready to perform down the stretch and hopefully far into the playoffs. You use the term "unacceptable." What I believe is truly unacceptable is keeping a bench ready and "in the game" via trotting out that putrid Sunday lineup. If this new approach does nothing other than prevent THAT, then I'm a happy camper this year.

 

Thanks to everyone for the kind words about my post, but I wasn't interested in entrances, I was simply interested in correcting an oft-repeated misconception about this year's planned DH use. In any case, if this team goes anywhere this year (and I for one am optimistic because I LOVE the pitching staff), I'm certain we get a LH power stick added to the mix pre post-season deadline which changes EVERYTHING down the stretch (in terms of rotations) and, depending on who it turns out to be (thinking of the possibility of guys like Berkman or Dunn), changes a lot about our future too.

 

Enjoy 2010 fellow Sox fans!

[flavum]

I don't think we'll see Beckham, Ramirez, and Pierzynski DHing. Not at all. I'd add Rios and Teahen to that, as well. If they're off the field, it's for a day off.

 

I do think that if Andruw Jones is playing great, we'll see him in the field a lot, and there will be a rotation of DHs with Pierre, Quentin, Jones, and Konerko. I think Kotsay will probably start at 1B once a week, and may start in left field and DH a handful of times.

Edited March 3, 2010 by flavum

[Kalapse]

You really want Pierre AND Vizquel in front of Q? Might as well just bat Q leadoff cause there would never be anyone on base with Pierre and Vizquel in front of him.

That's a .330 and a .300 OBP in front of your #3 hitter. A lot like that horrifying Wise/Pierzynski scenario from last year. But hey, if you need a bunt those 2 will give you a bunt!

[whitesoxfan101]

The only sure thing about the 2010 DH spot is it will need to be improved upon if the Sox are serious about trying to win the World Series. I am confident the Sox will eventually realize this too though.

[Ranger]

Hello. Long-time Sox fanatic -- just over 50 years old, Chicago native, actually a fanatic about all things baseball, but of course reserve the true love for my favorite two teams, the White Sox and anybody who happens to be playing the Schlubbies.

 

I've followed Soxtalk for many years, but have always preferred to read and be entertained, rather than posting myself. From talking to my friends and family, there are a lot of zealous Sox fans with a similar mindset. And kudos to Soxtalk, because almost all of these similarly inclined lurkers seem to greatly prefer Soxtalk to the competition.

 

So, what brings me out of lurking? I suppose I'm increasingly bothered by many avid fans, and the media, mischaracterizing what the 2010 DH slot is all about. This mischaracterization or misunderstanding has been around since the very day the flexible DH approach became news. Some of the problem might have something to do with the continuing adventures with Ozzie-speak. We've all seen how some baseball subtleties sometime get lost in translating Ozzie-speak into everyday English.

 

Without further windup, here's the gist of my issue -- I would be as worried about the 2010 DH Slot as anybody, IF I actually thought that DH at-bats for 2010 were going to be substantially divided just between Jones, Kotsay, and our new #11. We seem to be hearing so many Sox fans saying just this, including very intelligent fans who follow the Sox and baseball closely. The media regularly addresses this same supposed concern. Just today, in David Haugh's column advancing the position that the Sox should keep Beckham and not include him in any A-Gonzalez trade (couldn't agree with this more), Haugh lists other keys to 2010 success, including: "And the spotty DH trio of Mark Kotsay-Andruw Jones-Omar Vizquel has to justify Guillen's odd faith."

 

DH trio? Nonsense. I'm not sure whether people just enjoy a good straw-man argument, or whether they just don't want to take a moment to consider the full picture before reacting. Never once have I heard Guillen, Williams, or anyone within the White Sox organization say that this "trio" is your 2010 DH by committee. In fact, all of the DH discussion, in tandem with the more general discussion of roster flexibility, fluidity, interchangeability (call it what you will), has said exactly the opposite -- that a large number of Sox players will see significant time at DH in the 2010 season, as players rotate through that position AND in the field.

 

I fully expect that the trio of Jones, Kotsay, and Vizquel will see time at DH. Absolutely. However, and everyone can make their own guess, I'd imagine that we'll see Quentin as DH in somewhere between 25-30 games, Pierre for 25-30, Konerko for 15-20, AJ for 15-20, and Beckham, Ramirez, and Teahen for 5-10 each. So, do the math and for somewhere between 80-100 games, someone other than the "dreaded" Jones, Kotsay, Vizquel trio will man the DH slot. Yes, the remaining 60-80 games will feature one of the three as the DH, but not to open a different can o' worms, each of these players do bring certain talents to the table and using them periodically in this way also allows them to perform better when they are filling-in for a resting starter, pinch-hitting, or whatever.

 

And this latter point is what this whole flexibility idea is all about. I'm pretty certain we get the best overall performance and stats out of players like Quentin, Pierre, Konerko, and AJ if we get them off the field from time-to-time and "rest" them by a couple of days R&R in the DH role. Granted, managing this will be a bit of a logistical headache, but I think the theory is sound. In fact, I like the theory a lot for this mix of players. I think the Sox are much better off maximizing the performance level of players like Quentin, Pierre, Konerko, and AJ (insuring the occasionally needed rest, minimizing injury risk, optimizing the skill set of each for when they are on the field), rather than plugging in plodders like the current-day versions of Thome and Dye (and I love both of these guys -- just not for THIS team). Would I rather we have Adrian Gonzalez or Adam Dunn as the needed LH power bat and thereby slide Konerko or Dunn to more or less full-time DH? Of course. But in a world of limited resources, we don't have these guys (at least not now), so our plan needs to be maximizing what we do have. And in that regard, having a 7-10 player DH rotation (including some darned fine offensive ballplayers in that mix for a majority of the games) is a decent enough plan.

 

I understand how some might greatly prefer the one stud DH. We don't have that guy now, nor do I think we get him by trade without giving up more than I'd personally be willing to give up. But for all of those upset with the flexible DH alternative, it might ease your concerns a bit if you analyze it for what it is, rather than for what it isn't (and it isn't DH limited to the trio of Jones, Kotsay, and Vizquel).

 

Ah, reason.

 

The only sure thing about the 2010 DH spot is it will need to be improved upon if the Sox are serious about trying to win the World Series. I am confident the Sox will eventually realize this too though.

 

That's nto a sure thing. The only sure thing is that it would make you feel better going into the season if they had someone else.

[NorthSideSox72]

That's nto a sure thing. The only sure thing is that it would make you feel better going into the season if they had someone else.

Wouldn't it make you feel better as well, as a fan?

 

[The Ginger Kid]

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

--HERBERT SPENCER

 

 

[JohnCangelosi]

If Vizquel gets ONE start at DH it's one too many

 

[ScottyDo]

If Vizquel gets ONE start at DH it's one too many

I still doubt he ever will. More likely, he'll play the field and the man he replaces will be DH. There's no reason to do it otherwise, he's a defensive wiz

[Balta1701]

If Vizquel gets ONE start at DH it's one too many

I think he'll be DHing a lot, probably most of the times time Pierre is hurting or needing rest against a LH starter.

[gatnom]

If the semantics between full time DH and full time person in the lineup regardless of position is enough to make people happy with our "DH" situation, I don't plan on arguing about it.

 

Also, I hope to god Ozzie puts Vizquel in the field and the person he is replacing into the DH spot. For some reason, I just have a bad feeling that this will not be the case...

[whitesoxfan101]

That's nto a sure thing. The only sure thing is that it would make you feel better going into the season if they had someone else.

 

I'll admit it's not a "sure thing", they might just leave the DH slot as it is right now. I'd say odds are very high that (1) the current set of DH's will fail, leading to (2) an upgrade at DH because the pitching staff will carry the lineup and keep the team in the race, though. Unless Kenny Williams has just decided not to be a bold GM anymore, and I would say it's a sure thing that hasn't happened.

Edited March 4, 2010 by whitesoxfan101

[Ranger]

Wouldn't it make you feel better as well, as a fan?

 

Well, of course I'd feel better if they had a better option in there, but that wasn't what he was saying. Which leads me to:

 

Certainly it's not a sure thing, they might just leave the DH slot as it is right now. I'd say odds are high that (1) the current set of DH's will fail, leading to (2) an upgrade at DH because the pitching staff will carry the lineup and keep the team in the race though.

 

 

It's not a sure thing that in order for them to be a World Series contender, they need to improve the DH. That position in the lineup may turn out to be just fine. And the offense, as a whole, could certainly be good enough for them to win the division, given the rest of the club. And winning the division is all it takes to become a WS contender.

 

Definitely, I would feel better about the situation going in if they had somebody else, but I haven't predetermined that it is going to be a miserable failure. In fact, I don't think it is. It could probably be better, but I don't think it's going to be nearly as bad as some people think it's going to be.

[ScottyDo]

I think he'll be DHing a lot, probably most of the times time Pierre is hurting or needing rest against a LH starter.

Vizquel is old, he needs days off from fielding so you pretty much HAVE to DH him