Dick Allen Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (kjshoe04 @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:01 PM) This. When you can't draw without winning, it takes a long, long time to rebuild. Ask KC, Pittsburgh, Tampa, etc. I bet the youth movement would be fun for about half a season before everybody either complained or just didn't care. I'm all for trading Carlos if the package is right though. It's a smart move. An all out rebuild right now would really cripple this franchise for the better part of a decade. Just think about the former crown jewel franchises, franchises that seemed to know how to develop their own talent as well or better than anyone over the years has done totally rebuilding. Baltimore, KC and Pittsburgh. JR was gung ho to start rebuilding with his "genius" GM with the Bulls. What followed was the worst stretch of basketball in NBA history. I don't see him trying that again in either sport. Edited July 29, 2011 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 More importantly, it seems the Phils and Stros are getting closer on a deal for Pence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan101 Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:07 PM) BS. He can still trade Quentin and Thornton and Danks and Floyd in the offseason. Â He could, but teams with a full winter to build their team aren't nearly as willing to offer major parts in return as teams fighting to make it to the World Series are right now. That's the risk/reward. In particular with a guy like Quentin, he could suffer a season ending injury at any moment and nobody would be surprised. That wouldn't do much for his value this winter. It's all a risk/reward thing. Just one of many tough parts of being GM. Edited July 29, 2011 by whitesoxfan101 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:07 PM) BS. He can still trade Quentin and Thornton and Danks and Floyd in the offseason. And get much smaller returns, especially for Quentin. I honestly believe we can trade him and Thornton right now and still compete. If we trade a starter, we are definitely conceeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
103 mph screwball Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 We are not talking about a rebuild. It's a retool that may not even prevent winning THIS year and in fact may make this team better depending on the players involved. You would in effect be replacing TCQ with Viciedo and have Dominic Brown ready to replace Pierre next year. Plus money would be saved to bring back MB56 or trade for a third baseman. I do not call that a white flag, I call that a good plan. I call this selling high. You know what really hurting attendance, this team was not fun to watch. Light a fire. I still want to win this year, but if the offers are good as reported, I hope KW pulls the trigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatnom Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:07 PM) BS. He can still trade Quentin and Thornton and Danks and Floyd in the offseason. Â Carlos Quentin isn't even worth Domonic Brown straight up in the off season, let alone him and 2-3 other top 100 prospects in baseball. I don't agree with completely trading away our team; I just think it is wise to sell while teams are willing to trade you an arm and a leg plus a few top prospects. In the off season, you will only get fair value for him. I wouldn't mind dealing Thornton because we have such a deep bullpen as it is, and that's not even including Reed and a few other good relief prospects we have. Â I don't see anybody having enough for Danks or Floyd. Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:10 PM) He could, but teams with a full winter to build their team aren't nearly as willing to offer major parts in return as teams fighting to make it to the World Series are right now. That's the risk/reward. In particular with a guy like Quentin, he could suffer a season ending injury at any moment and nobody would be surprised. That wouldn't do much for his value this winter. It's all a risk/reward thing. Just one of many tough parts of being GM. He could get injured, he also might hit 20 homers. Unless he suffers an injury that will carry into next season, Quentin will still have a ton of value in a couple of months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:11 PM) And get much smaller returns, especially for Quentin. I honestly believe we can trade him and Thornton right now and still compete. If we trade a starter, we are definitely conceeding. Â This is laughable. You don't even know what exactly is being offered for Quentin right now. How do you trade Quentin right now and have enough offense to win? Edited July 29, 2011 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 The Sox are in the unfortunate position of not being able to pack the house without a good team on the field. So it's ABSOLUTELY IMPERATIVE that they give the impression that they're TRYING to win. And this is exactly what they've done over the past five years. They haven't won a playoff series since 2005 and they haven't had a playoff appearance since 2008, but they've still drawn over 2 million each year because they've put quality players on the field. Even though the playoff appearances/victories aren't there, the fans understand that they're trying to win. They respect that and they buy tickets. What fans will NOT respect is the front office cutting the legs off of a team that has a legit shot of winning the division. This would be the THIRD TIME in just 17 years, and the fallout would destroy season ticket sales and inhibit their ability to compete with the big-spending teams down the road. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 09:07 PM) BS. He can still trade Quentin and Thornton and Danks and Floyd in the offseason. Â For the record, I'm all for major rebuilding IN THE OFF-SEASON if the Sox fail to make the playoffs this year. Just don't cut the legs out from a team that has a legit shot of winning the division this season. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Like I said before, standing pat with the market like it is out there is giving up to me. The sox offense has proven to be nothing but inconsistant and mostly frustrating. It means KW and Ozzie are banking on some second half magic where they can suddenly beat AL central teams at an outrageous pace (look at ALL OF SEPTEMBER) and that to me is not something I want to risk. I'd rather "rebuild on the fly" and take my chances 3 games out, than keep with this middling offense and hope for the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Hates Prospects Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Man, those 30,000+ that pack the Cell every night sure are going to be mad when they find out we've traded Carlos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Â QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:33 PM) Also, side note, the comment about Joe Cowley being the only person you can trust about the Sox a few posts back is the funniest thing I've ever read on this board. Â No kidding. It just confirmed that Marty is Cowley. Man, he is Hollywood. Â On the trade front, I WANT THAT PENCE PACKAGE. Throw in Thornton and Cash if need be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan101 Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:19 PM) Man, those 30,000+ that pack the Cell every night sure are going to be mad when they find out we've traded Carlos. Â You make a fair point. I understand the fans anger with the team this year, but there are consequences when a team with a payroll this high isn't drawing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:18 PM) For the record, I'm all for major rebuilding IN THE OFF-SEASON if the Sox fail to make the playoffs this year. Just don't cut the legs out from a team that has a legit shot of winning the division this season. It makes a lot more sense than pulling the plug right now. For the record, I don't think the Sox will pull the plug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatnom Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:18 PM) For the record, I'm all for major rebuilding IN THE OFF-SEASON if the Sox fail to make the playoffs this year. Just don't cut the legs out from a team that has a legit shot of winning the division this season. Â I hope you don't plan on winning any time in the next few years then. I'm sure the fans would react positively to that, though. Â Â Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 09:21 PM) You make a fair point. I understand the fans anger with the team this year, but there are consequences when a team with a payroll this high isn't drawing. Â They drew 28,000 on Tuesday and just under 27,000 on Wednesday, so he wasn't that far off. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 09:23 PM) I hope you don't plan on winning any time in the next few years then. I'm sure the fans would react positively to that, though. Â You need to brush up on Sox history, little buddy. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatnom Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:22 PM) It makes a lot more sense than pulling the plug right now. For the record, I don't think the Sox will pull the plug. Â The question then becomes, does trading Quentin for an absolutely amazing package constitute as pulling the plug? Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:23 PM) I hope you don't plan on winning any time in the next few years then. I'm sure the fans would react positively to that, though. What is the best offer on the table right now for Quentin or Thornton? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max power Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:25 PM) The question then becomes, does trading Quentin for an absolutely amazing package constitute as pulling the plug? I don't think so, not with Viciedo waiting in AAA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 09:25 PM) The question then becomes, does trading Quentin for an absolutely amazing package constitute as pulling the plug? Â If it's not a veteran bat, then yes. Remember that Quentin is only one of two productive hitters in the lineup right now. If you don't replace him with an .800 OPS hitter, it's an immediate step backward. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:25 PM) The question then becomes, does trading Quentin for an absolutely amazing package constitute as pulling the plug? You have no idea what is being offered for Carlos Quentin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 09:25 PM) The question then becomes, does trading Quentin for an absolutely amazing package constitute as pulling the plug? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
103 mph screwball Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:14 PM) The Sox are in the unfortunate position of not being able to pack the house without a good team on the field. So it's ABSOLUTELY IMPERATIVE that they give the impression that they're TRYING to win. And this is exactly what they've done over the past five years. They haven't won a playoff series since 2005 and they haven't had a playoff appearance since 2008, but they've still drawn over 2 million each year because they've put quality players on the field. Even though the playoff appearances/victories aren't there, the fans understand that they're trying to win. They respect that and they buy tickets. What fans will NOT respect is the front office cutting the legs off of a team that has a legit shot of winning the division. This would be the THIRD TIME in just 17 years, and the fallout would destroy season ticket sales and inhibit their ability to compete with the big-spending teams down the road. I think Sox fans are smarter than that. Keeping this same team is NOT trying to win in my opinion. It was just a few weeks ago that Viciedo was the talk of the town. It is not like they are trading Paully, Mark, or even AJ. It's a lateral move that saves money and builds for the future. No legs being cut off here. If the Sox dump payroll back to 58 million then we have big problems. If they retool and come back next year with more talent and a payroll of 110+, I will be excited again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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