Rick Hahn

[bigruss]

Actually the failure of KW to acquire a CF for multiple years was one of Kenny's biggest misses. But he had Sweeney and Anderson on the farm who were supposed to be good one day, plus Chris Young who KW was vilified for, etc. and then Joe Borchard was a CF prospect for a time, and a huge one, as was Jeremy Reed, and all of these guys were at one time very highly touted and consensus ranked top prospects, with a couple being elite in the game. The farm had CF penciled in as more of a strength in terms of prospect depth, but they didn't turn out. If you're going to blame Kenny and say he failed because these guys didn't turn out then go ahead and call everyone else in the game, every GM and every talent evaluator who also liked these players when they were prospects, failures too. Kenny doesn't deserve to be criticized for BA not listening to his coaches or Sweeney not acquiring that power he was supposed to develop, but he does deserve to be criticized for running out Jerry Owens and DeWayne Wise as starting CFs and opening up with Grinderstad in CF as opposed to anyone with any kind of long-term organizational value. So yeah, you hit on one potential area for KW criticism, but only kind of by accident, like when Mike MacDougal found the strikezone.

That's actually all on Kenny (when he was GM) He's the one evaluating this players, from talent to coachability, that's 100% on him. It comes with the title.

 

Rick has that now, if Keppinger pulls a Teahen he'll be knocked on that as well. If this team surprises and wins the division then he'll be glorified for that as well.

[Eminor3rd]

You my friend are giving Mr. Hahn way too much credit for doing nothing at all. You are assuming he's making all these smart business decisions holding onto players he could trade, not clearing salary for players he'd like to sign, etc. But while it is bad to go out and actively make a mistake it is a whole lot worse to sit around with a bong in your hand waiting for that mistake to come find *you.*

 

This is so, so, so wrong. This is so wrong. You really think it's better to make a bad move than to make no move at all? That's how guys like Juan Pierre end up making $12m/year in his mid-30's. Because teams decided it was "time to spend" rather than deciding on what was worth money. That's how the Marlins end up spending a bajillion dollars on one star and two solid regulars and still suck.

 

Should we sign Kyle Lohse to a 4 year deal coming off his fluky career year because he's the best SP left on the market? There's definitely a good chance he'd make our rotation better next year.

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I really can't blame Hahn for not doing much. He shouldn't be giving up young talent. Look at how the free agents that require giving up a draft pick aren't getting offers and that's for just a draft pick not a guy like Viciedo who hit 25 HR's in his 1st full season. PK is near the end of the line. Other than that you got guys with near unmovable contracts or vital to the depth of the pitching staff.

 

KW was always criticized for making deals too quick and not waiting for a better offer. If Hahn is waiting for the right deal so be it and if he stands pat , fine. We're all just junkies jonesing right now.

[iamshack]

This is so, so, so wrong. This is so wrong. You really think it's better to make a bad move than to make no move at all? That's how guys like Juan Pierre end up making $12m/year in his mid-30's. Because teams decided it was "time to spend" rather than deciding on what was worth money. That's how the Marlins end up spending a bajillion dollars on one star and two solid regulars and still suck.

 

Should we sign Kyle Lohse to a 4 year deal coming off his fluky career year because he's the best SP left on the market? There's definitely a good chance he'd make our rotation better next year.

To be fair, Lohse was pretty solid in 2011 as well.

[Marty34]

I'm not sure what this means.

 

If you're saying those who rag on the fans who don't support the team are the ones advocating relocation, that doesn't make sense at all. If you're saying it's the fans who don't go to the games who are advocating relocation, that's still wrong.

 

There have been enough discussions here about the price to attend Sox game for all to be aware that it's not something everyone can do. And most who can do it can't afford to do it many times.

 

There are plenty of ways to support a team, and attending the game is just one. Merchandise is huge. Plus with agreements with the channels that broadcast games, the teams make money when people tune in.

 

I think it's the height of arrogance to blame fans not attending games for a team not being able to make the post season. There are many more important things to spend your money on than a baseball game.

[caulfield12]

I get more frustrated with people who expected Rick Hahn to be ultra aggressive and completely transform this team overnight while only adding, at the most, $25 million in payroll. The fact of the matter is Rick Hahn is doing exactly what people have wanted Ken Williams to do for years - slow down, hang on to prospects, build from within, and trade when you are at the point of going over the top. There is no one single move that pushes the White Sox "past" the Tigers at this point in time - no matter what, they're going to have a better team, on paper, going into the year than the White Sox, and that's the simple truth to it. If he brings in Hamilton, it's essentially at +6 WAR at the very best (because I figure he's a 6 WAR player in LF, though he could certainly be better, and moving De Aza from CF to LF kills his value), so even that wouldn't have pushed the Sox over the top. And rather than forcing a trade of Gavin Floyd for what essentially amounts to pennies on the dollar, he can hang on to him and either keep him to add depth and durability to the rotation, or he can deal him midseason (especially if the team struggles like so, so many of you believe it will).

 

For the first time that I can remember, the White Sox have enough talent in the minor leagues that I can look at it and safely believe that they will have atleast 5 steady contributors from that system at the MLB level at some point in time within the next 3-4 years. I look at it and see a guy who has superstar potential in Courtney Hawkins and a couple of different pitchers who have top of the rotation talent. I'm not sure if people wanted Hahn to deal from that and get marginal upgrades at best or shred it Veeck style to sell off for maybe one or two playoff runs, or to sign free agents which cripple the team's long-term financial goals, or to blow up and absolutely forego any sort of chance at competition in the next 3-5 years while cutting attendance by about 20% starting next year. Do any of those make sense?

 

Think from a rational point of view as to what you would have done differently if you were Rick Hahn, and then think about it again and see if it actually would have been the viable and most effecient move both short and long term.

 

This team won 85 games last year. They're adding a guy who has been a 3-4 WAR starting pitcher, adding a full-time 3Bman who should get on base and will put the ball in play, and they brought back their most important free agent (there is no argument here). If everything falls apart, this could certainly be a 72-75 win team. If everything comes together, it could be a 92-95 win team. More than likely, it's in between there at around 82-85 wins again, which probably won't be good enough for the playoffs. Konerko and Floyd are free agents at that point, Dunn will only have 1 year left on his deal (making him move movable), and, unless someone has stepped up elsewhere, the Sox probably will sell quite a few more pieces off.

 

They are in "purgatory" right now, but unlike the NFL and NBA, variance and randomness play a much larger role in the MLB. If they get hot and Detroit suffers an injury, they could very well be penciling themselves into a playoff spot. Baseball is weird like that sometimes. Teams like the 2012 Orioles and the 2005 White Sox happen. This team isn't so far upcreek right now that they have no chance going into the season, unlike the Houston Astros or the Miami Marlins, and in fact, this team has a better chance at reaching the postseason than most. With the way this coaching staff has prepared these players last season, I'm willing to take that chance.

 

Not to mention Rios and Peavy after 2014 as well. So almost all of the bigger contracts will be cleared, with the exception of John Danks.

 

They're still set up to be competitive or decent the next two years (with the possible variances from the 70's to 90's in wins) and we all know from past history the team has been aggressive in trying to make improvements at the ASB.

 

By 2015, you can definitely see Hawkins and Thompson playing an integral role as starters. If both of them flop (and assuming Mitchell and Walker are more on the 4th outfielder track than projected starters), we'll be back to where we were 2-3 years ago, unless another Sale comes along internally.

 

I suppose if DeAza gets more expensive and older in his arb years, he could be flipped out for one of those guys as well.

[NorthSideSox72]

I think it's the height of arrogance to blame fans not attending games for a team not being able to make the post season. There are many more important things to spend your money on than a baseball game.

Do you ever re-read your posts after posting them?

 

[The Ultimate Champion]

This is so, so, so wrong. This is so wrong. You really think it's better to make a bad move than to make no move at all? That's how guys like Juan Pierre end up making $12m/year in his mid-30's. Because teams decided it was "time to spend" rather than deciding on what was worth money. That's how the Marlins end up spending a bajillion dollars on one star and two solid regulars and still suck.

 

Should we sign Kyle Lohse to a 4 year deal coming off his fluky career year because he's the best SP left on the market? There's definitely a good chance he'd make our rotation better next year.

My point was more along the lines of not being afraid to act. Everyone makes mistakes. Mistakes are necessary if you want to learn anything. A GM will make mistakes but a good one will learn from those. As long as a GM is acting on good information and is doing the right things at the right times, i.e. going for it when the contention window is there, building toward a new contention window when the current one seems to have closed, etc. then as long as he's primarily signing *proven* talent and trading *unproven* prospects with speculative value which (see: Molina, Nestor) can crash abruptly, then more often than not he's going to be on the right end of things. I see Hahn as being afraid to make a move. Kenny's aggression was a wonderful quality and I miss it. While others may not want to immediately hold Rick Hahn up to KW standards, I do. As a fan I expect an excellent General Manager running things.

 

As far as Lohse you have a point, although I am not sure he ever would have been a Hahn/Sox under anyone target, and I really doubt we're looking to add salary. However, that Floyd trade which never happened would have given us salary room, and in theory, getting something of value for Floyd and then turning around and recommitting those funds to another area makes the organization's future appear brighter since talent would have been added overall, talent also with expiration dates beyond 2013 like Floyd. But going with Lohse as an example, signing Lohse to a 3 year deal, trading Floyd for parts/prospects, and then dealing off Lohse after 1-2 seasons and dumping salary probably is a lot less riskier than losing Floyd for nothing when just about everyone needs starting pitching.

 

I will applaud Hahn if and when he does something right. He has no leash with me since he's failed already. At least 2 of Crain/Thornton/Floyd should have been gone with at least one good young piece coming back who is ready to compete for a job in ST 2013. He's done jack.

[bigruss]

I will applaud Hahn if and when he does something right. He has no leash with me since he's failed already. At least 2 of Crain/Thornton/Floyd should have been gone with at least one good young piece coming back who is ready to compete for a job in ST 2013. He's done jack.

You are f***ing ridiculous. Hahn can only make moves like this if someone offers those good young pieces. I'd like to see your proof that Hahn hasn't tried getting exactly that for those players.

 

Stop blaming Hahn for factors outside of his control.

[Dick Allen]

My point was more along the lines of not being afraid to act. Everyone makes mistakes. Mistakes are necessary if you want to learn anything. A GM will make mistakes but a good one will learn from those. As long as a GM is acting on good information and is doing the right things at the right times, i.e. going for it when the contention window is there, building toward a new contention window when the current one seems to have closed, etc. then as long as he's primarily signing *proven* talent and trading *unproven* prospects with speculative value which (see: Molina, Nestor) can crash abruptly, then more often than not he's going to be on the right end of things. I see Hahn as being afraid to make a move. Kenny's aggression was a wonderful quality and I miss it. While others may not want to immediately hold Rick Hahn up to KW standards, I do. As a fan I expect an excellent General Manager running things.

 

As far as Lohse you have a point, although I am not sure he ever would have been a Hahn/Sox under anyone target, and I really doubt we're looking to add salary. However, that Floyd trade which never happened would have given us salary room, and in theory, getting something of value for Floyd and then turning around and recommitting those funds to another area makes the organization's future appear brighter since talent would have been added overall, talent also with expiration dates beyond 2013 like Floyd. But going with Lohse as an example, signing Lohse to a 3 year deal, trading Floyd for parts/prospects, and then dealing off Lohse after 1-2 seasons and dumping salary probably is a lot less riskier than losing Floyd for nothing when just about everyone needs starting pitching.

 

I will applaud Hahn if and when he does something right. He has no leash with me since he's failed already. At least 2 of Crain/Thornton/Floyd should have been gone with at least one good young piece coming back who is ready to compete for a job in ST 2013. He's done jack.

 

I am sure your approval is Hahn's number one goal.

[southsider2k5]

You are f***ing ridiculous. Hahn can only make moves like this if someone offers those good young pieces. I'd like to see your proof that Hahn hasn't tried getting exactly that for those players.

 

Stop blaming Hahn for factors outside of his control.

 

Especially because it is f***ing obvious that the Sox have been actively shopping guys around, and inquiring about specific targeted guys.

[Marty34]

I really liked Kenny as GM, but this is one place where Kenny failed. As general manager Kenny Williams was in charge of the distribution of assets. He made the conscious decision to put money and minor league players into acquiring major league players. He is the one who put the emphasis elsewhere, not Hahn, or anyone else.

 

The White Sox never include significant amounts of money in trades.

 

The organization either develops or trades for their best players. They never look at the top tier of free agents which makes it difficult to put together a team that has the ability to make the postseason when the farm system is garbage. It's telling that the $65M contract signed by Danks was the richest in club history and $52M only buys you Edwin Jackson on the open market. The next time the Sox spend $65M or more on a player Chris Sale in three years. It's going to be a tough couple years.

[Marty34]

Do you ever re-read your posts after posting them?

 

The mods are what make this board what it is.

[southsider2k5]

The White Sox never include significant amounts of money in trades.

The organization either develops or trades for their best players. They never look at the top tier of free agents which makes it difficult to put together a team that has the ability to make the postseason when the farm system is garbage. It's telling that the $65M contract signed by Danks was the richest in club history and $52M only buys you Edwin Jackson on the open market. The next time the Sox spend $65M or more on a player Chris Sale in three years. It's going to be a tough couple years.

 

That's not actually true. You really should do some research before making statements like this.

[caulfield12]

The White Sox never include significant amounts of money in trades.

 

The organization either develops or trades for their best players. They never look at the top tier of free agents which makes it difficult to put together a team that has the ability to make the postseason when the farm system is garbage. It's telling that the $65M contract signed by Danks was the richest in club history and $52M only buys you Edwin Jackson on the open market. The next time the Sox spend $65M or more on a player Chris Sale in three years. It's going to be a tough couple years.

 

Because they're not idiots. How many of the World Series winners from the past 15 or so years been almost entirely comprised of "big ticket" free agent purchases besides the Yankees and Red Sox?

 

Where are the Phillies now, once their payroll got bloated out of the stratosphere?

 

Albert Belle

David Wells

Adam Dunn

 

None of them were "big name" free agents, apparently.

 

And it's not even a foregone conclusion we'll invest millions in Chris Sale at that point because of health concerns. It's possible, but i would guess it's more like a 50/50 thing, at best. If he stays 100% healthy in 2013, though, they'd be stupid not to consider offering him a deal extending into his FA years.

 

Then you also refuse to look at adding the likes of Alex Rios or Jake Peavy as being similar to free agent acquisitions.

 

Finally, you don't count signing players like Ramirez and Viciedo, no matter what they eventually do or don't do at the major league level, because you're now transfixed with the idea of spending someone else's money foolishly on Josh Hamilton or Z. Greinke.

Edited January 16, 2013 by caulfield12

[Marty34]

That's not actually true. You really should do some research before making statements like this.

 

Perhaps I am missing a trade. If so, I'd appreciate it if you would enlighten me.

[caulfield12]

That's not actually true. You really should do some research before making statements like this.

 

 

Linebrink would be one, although Marty will disagree about the money being significant, surely. Ray Durham, too, I think.

 

We ate MacDougal's contract.

 

We essentially gave away Jackson to get rid of Teahen.

 

When we traded Thome in 2009, I'm pretty sure we paid his contract off....Dodgers, I think.

 

I'm fairly sure the Sox have never eaten more than $5 million or so, though, unless you want to consider Joe Borchard in that manner, haha.

 

 

Cue thread arguing we should "eat" the contracts of Danks, Thornton, Crain, Ramirez, Floyd, Dunn and Rios.

 

Somehow, that will help improve our fan support, as it will clearly lead to assembling a dynasty of Braves-like proportions.

 

I have noticed that Marty has never once argued we should dump Konerko. Even he knows that would be suicide for Reinsdorf....although you could see him being traded this year if the Sox are out of contention and we can save some money at the end of the year.

Edited January 16, 2013 by caulfield12

[bigruss]

The mods are what make this board what it is.

Marty, I used to support you and thought some of your opinions were good in a different way.

 

Recently, you've become a complete ass. You've made some very opinionated statements and haven't backed them up well, and when people question you about them you just blame it on something else or ignore their point while continually stating your opinion without evidence. It's become a tiresome act on this board (not just you, but a lot of posters lately).

[caulfield12]

Marty, I used to support you and thought some of your opinions were good in a different way.

 

Recently, you've become a complete ass. You've made some very opinionated statements and haven't backed them up well, and when people question you about them you just blame it on something else or ignore their point while continually stating your opinion without evidence. It's become a tiresome act on this board (not just you, but a lot of posters lately).

 

People are bored, so some want to have SOMETHING to argue about, if they're not prone to arguing about gun control, the debt ceiling or who's actually responsible for one's physical well-being.

 

I guess with KW "gone," it leaves very few targets, other than Hahn, Boyer or ownership.

 

Hard to pick on Ventura, after all. If you think back to the past couple of offseasons, that was one huge area of contention that's thankfully gone, but Greg has his enduring point that Ozzie made things more interesting. Now whether that actually translated into butts in the seats or more revenues, you'd have a harder time convincing most of that fact.

[Marty34]

Marty, I used to support you and thought some of your opinions were good in a different way.

 

Recently, you've become a complete ass. You've made some very opinionated statements and haven't backed them up well, and when people question you about them you just blame it on something else or ignore their point while continually stating your opinion without evidence. It's become a tiresome act on this board (not just you, but a lot of posters lately).

 

 

I appreciate the constructive riticism Russ. What specific posts do you mean?

[bigruss]

I appreciate the constructive riticism Russ. What specific posts do you mean?

I dont feel like spending the time digging up specific posts, but how about these comments on recent topics:

-Fans not supporting the Sox: Multiple posters found solid facts about attendance and correlations to winning/selling off players. It may be true that the Sox haven't done everything they could to put out the best team on the field, but Sox fans definitely haven't put forth their best effort to support the team. It's not a one way street on either side, both need to get better. Also, the whole moving the team comment irked me, but that was probably more just me.

 

-Sox not spending every dime that comes in: It's a business, private at that. Meaning we don't see their books, and therefore it's extremely hard to see exactly what they are spending and/or saving. It may be much closer to the break even point than we know. It's not like the Sox aren't spending money either, they spend quite a bit actually. Could some areas, such as the draft, get more money or need more money? Sure, but that's changing with the CBA rules anyways.

 

-Mods vs poster: This is tiresome, no matter if it's you or any other poster. The mods here are posters as well, maybe they get away with some stuff but from everything I've heard they still get talked to if they go to far. They're still going to bring in some opinions, sometimes extreme ones (look at the Filibuster), but I honestly haven't seen any comment from them that is drastically different/worse than any other poster on here. It's a tiring "woe is me" defense when the poster isn't getting the positive feedback they may desire on a viewpoint.

[NorthSideSox72]

I think it's the height of arrogance to blame fans not attending games for a team not being able to make the post season. There are many more important things to spend your money on than a baseball game.

 

 

Do you ever re-read your posts after posting them?

 

 

The mods are what make this board what it is.

 

Seriously, re-read your post. You say there are many more important things than baseball... and in the same post say you can't blame fans for not making the postseason. Do you really not get the conflict in your own two sentences there? You are saying you can't blame the fans for not going, but then blame the team for not having the money to spend? You can't in the same breath make an argument for baseball being unimportant, but also expect baseball teams to spend money they don't have. Its ridiculous.

 

[caulfield12]

Seriously, re-read your post. You say there are many more important things than baseball... and in the same post say you can't blame fans for not making the postseason. Do you really not get the conflict in your own two sentences there? You are saying you can't blame the fans for not going, but then blame the team for not having the money to spend? You can't in the same breath make an argument for baseball being unimportant, but also expect baseball teams to spend money they don't have. Its ridiculous.

 

 

I can't believe I'm going to defend Marty, but I think what he meant is...

 

Not that baseball is unimportant...but, that in the overall scheme of things, Chicagoland families have lots of options in terms of what they spend their discretionary entertainment/leisure dollars on, and baseball isn't a priority for most.

 

Not really the philosophical debate of whether baseball SHOULD be important, because most of the hardcore Sox fans here take winning and losing on a day to day basis as something of a "life or death" eventuality (myself included), but that in the past 2-3 seasons apathy has started to spread to the more casual Sox fans.

 

From this perspective, it's the responsibility of the ownership group and front office to give the fans a more exciting product, more post-seasons, more thrills and superstars and reasons to make baseball important again in their lives, like 2005 and mostly 2006, when the White Sox were the hottest ticket in town and many games were sold out.

 

I don't think the argument is about making people who don't care about baseball care about a sport that's boring and unimportant to them, but to find those "lost" Sox fans and get them interested in coming out to the ballpark again.

 

OTOH, some of these fans are paying attention, the t.v. ratings were up dramatically, they're just not coming to the ballpark with the same frequency as the recent past...but those revenues all add up, from WGN, Comcast, Fox, TBS/TNT, ESPN, MLB Extra Innings, Dish and DirecTV, etc. So I guess the argument is that the revenues are increasing in OTHER places (not tickets, parking or concessions/souvenirs), therefore, the team should still be spending more than they are, something like that.

Edited January 16, 2013 by caulfield12

[ptatc]

My point was more along the lines of not being afraid to act. Everyone makes mistakes. Mistakes are necessary if you want to learn anything. A GM will make mistakes but a good one will learn from those. As long as a GM is acting on good information and is doing the right things at the right times, i.e. going for it when the contention window is there, building toward a new contention window when the current one seems to have closed, etc. then as long as he's primarily signing *proven* talent and trading *unproven* prospects with speculative value which (see: Molina, Nestor) can crash abruptly, then more often than not he's going to be on the right end of things. I see Hahn as being afraid to make a move. Kenny's aggression was a wonderful quality and I miss it. While others may not want to immediately hold Rick Hahn up to KW standards, I do. As a fan I expect an excellent General Manager running things.

 

As far as Lohse you have a point, although I am not sure he ever would have been a Hahn/Sox under anyone target, and I really doubt we're looking to add salary. However, that Floyd trade which never happened would have given us salary room, and in theory, getting something of value for Floyd and then turning around and recommitting those funds to another area makes the organization's future appear brighter since talent would have been added overall, talent also with expiration dates beyond 2013 like Floyd. But going with Lohse as an example, signing Lohse to a 3 year deal, trading Floyd for parts/prospects, and then dealing off Lohse after 1-2 seasons and dumping salary probably is a lot less riskier than losing Floyd for nothing when just about everyone needs starting pitching.

 

I will applaud Hahn if and when he does something right. He has no leash with me since he's failed already. At least 2 of Crain/Thornton/Floyd should have been gone with at least one good young piece coming back who is ready to compete for a job in ST 2013. He's done jack.

I think from a certain point of view that this is actually backwards, that KW was the conservative one and Hahn is the gamblers. KW traded away unproven prospects for proven veterans. I don't care how good the prospect is they are still suspect until they prove it at the MLB level. So KW was trading the gamble for the proven player. Hahn on the other hand seems willing to hold on to everyone and gamble that either the players will improve or that his prospects will come through. Again it's still too early to say it for sure but it appears he is patient and willing to wait for the right deal and not afraid to go into the season with his own players.

 

Thus KW is the more conservative (going more with the proven player) while Hahn is gambling on unproven players.

[bhawk99]

Kenny made some questionable deals that didn't pan out and he also made some excellent deals that really improved the team. The point being Kenny had the cahones to do a deal. He was never content with the roster and he was always looking for a way to make the team on the field better. Dumping AJ and adding Keppinger is a wash at best. Will Danks be ready for opening day, who knows? Will Flowers hit his weight or will he continue to be a .205 hitter? Will Dunn not strike out 200 times? Will Tank stop swinging at pitches 6 inches outside the plate? Will Beckham hit like he actually belongs in the big leagues? Will Thornton not lose 10 games again? Will the Sox actually score runners from 3rd with less then 2 outs? I say we have alot of questions to answer to be considered serious contender to the always strong and improved Tigers. If Hahn adds some more talent we will have a fun summer but he has to prove to a lot of us that he is actually serious about winning this year, so far he has not !!!