southsider2k5 Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 17, 2013 -> 09:10 AM) I don't see any reason why Ozzie wouldn't be cool with Robin, they always have been as far as I can tell He was complementary of Robin before, that is true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 17, 2013 -> 09:10 AM) I don't see any reason why Ozzie wouldn't be cool with Robin, they always have been as far as I can tell And it's not like Robin took Ozzie's job away from him. Ozzie voluntarily went to Miami. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jul 17, 2013 -> 09:25 AM) And it's not like Robin took Ozzie's job away from him. Ozzie voluntarily went to Miami. I really wonder if he hadn't have made a big side show, would he have been fired that off season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 17, 2013 -> 09:37 AM) I really wonder if he hadn't have made a big side show, would he have been fired that off season? I think Reinsdorf values Williams over Ozzie, and I don't think Williams was going to tolerate Guillen in the dugout for another season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 17, 2013 -> 10:25 AM) I think Reinsdorf values Williams over Ozzie, and I don't think Williams was going to tolerate Guillen in the dugout for another season. He had been trying to fire him for a couple of years, if you believe the rumor mill. Would Jerry have finally let in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 17, 2013 -> 10:26 AM) He had been trying to fire him for a couple of years, if you believe the rumor mill. Would Jerry have finally let in? Thought I mentioned it in the first post. Yes, I think he would have, because I don't think Williams was going to stick around. I think he would have given Reinsdorf a "me or him" ultimatum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LVSoxFan Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 That's the way I heard it, it was basically the two sons fighting for Dad's (JR's) loyalty. KW won. It seemed like they were both jockeying for favor once we won the WS, each convinced that they were more responsible for it than the other. God I don't miss that soap opera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 QUOTE (LVSoxFan @ Jul 17, 2013 -> 11:07 AM) That's the way I heard it, it was basically the two sons fighting for Dad's (JR's) loyalty. KW won. It seemed like they were both jockeying for favor once we won the WS, each convinced that they were more responsible for it than the other. God I don't miss that soap opera. The franchise is still paying for Ozzie winning the Thome/Kotsay battle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted July 17, 2013 Author Share Posted July 17, 2013 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jul 17, 2013 -> 12:14 PM) The franchise is still paying for Ozzie winning the Thome/Kotsay battle. Some would argue that the Thome/Rowand trade set them back even more. I liked Ozzie's philosophy on that but they had the wrong people for it. The DH has always been a money pit for the Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted July 17, 2013 Author Share Posted July 17, 2013 QUOTE (LVSoxFan @ Jul 17, 2013 -> 11:07 AM) That's the way I heard it, it was basically the two sons fighting for Dad's (JR's) loyalty. KW won. It seemed like they were both jockeying for favor once we won the WS, each convinced that they were more responsible for it than the other. God I don't miss that soap opera. I think Ozzie was the only one doing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jul 17, 2013 -> 01:43 PM) Some would argue that the Thome/Rowand trade set them back even more. I liked Ozzie's philosophy on that but they had the wrong people for it. The DH has always been a money pit for the Sox. Really? I don't see how because while trading Rowand left a gaping hole in CF for us until a couple of years ago, Thome was a pretty big deal. Whereas the Kotsay rotating DH idea was just a thorough unmitigated disaster. There was the ugly breakup with Frank Thomas at the same time, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jul 17, 2013 -> 12:43 PM) Some would argue that the Thome/Rowand trade set them back even more. I liked Ozzie's philosophy on that but they had the wrong people for it. The DH has always been a money pit for the Sox. That one's a close call. Rowand was going to cost us money, and we got Gio back in a great Williams trade of Garcia for Floyd and Gio. Swisher 1, and Edwin Jackson 1, all set us back. Swisher 2, Vasquez 1, Vasquez 2, and Jackson 2 set us back in terms of opportunity cost - lost opportunity to get some talent in here or keep what we had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jul 17, 2013 -> 12:43 PM) Some would argue that the Thome/Rowand trade set them back even more. I liked Ozzie's philosophy on that but they had the wrong people for it. The DH has always been a money pit for the Sox. I disagree, Thome was outstanding for the Sox, and Rowand starting declining soon after. And if you don't have the right players for your DH philosophy, then go with something else until you do, that was the mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jul 17, 2013 -> 04:04 PM) That one's a close call. Rowand was going to cost us money, and we got Gio back in a great Williams trade of Garcia for Floyd and Gio. Swisher 1, and Edwin Jackson 1, all set us back. Swisher 2, Vasquez 1, Vasquez 2, and Jackson 2 set us back in terms of opportunity cost - lost opportunity to get some talent in here or keep what we had. Jackson 2 was perfectly fine. Jackson was a sunk cost at that point, so they dealt him, got rid of Teahen's mini-albatross of a contract, pick up good pitching prospect (Stewart busted) and a reliever who was then dealt back to the Jays for Myles Jaye (solid prospect) and Daniel Webb (top 10 prospect). Also, Vazquez 1? They gave up Chris Young, El Duque, and Luis Vizcaino. He was an OK centerfielder, but didn't make contact, struck out a lot, and hit a few homers. Haven't heard that in a while. Vazquez 2 looked just fine. Vazquez was coming off a poor year, Flowers a great year, Lillibridge looked like an OK player, Gilmore had big upside, and Santos Rodriguez had a big arm from the left side. Only two are still in the system, but they got quite a bit in return there too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 17, 2013 -> 04:45 PM) Jackson 2 was perfectly fine. Jackson was a sunk cost at that point, so they dealt him, got rid of Teahen's mini-albatross of a contract, pick up good pitching prospect (Stewart busted) and a reliever who was then dealt back to the Jays for Myles Jaye (solid prospect) and Daniel Webb (top 10 prospect). Jackson 2 was terrible. WE took one of the top available starters at the deadline, and salary dumped him and Teahen. We got a mediocre middle reliever and a prospect who was in decline. We recouped with the subsequent trade of the reliever back to the Jays. But Jackson 2 was beyond awful - didn't make any effort at all to get talent out of that deal. We did it to dump salary (Jackson was pitching very well) and to help out Toronto who needed him to get the CF they wanted from Stl. Maybe I'm jaded because WE gave up our 2 top pitching prospects for him a year earlier, at a time when Az was looking for a salary dump and he had an ERA in excess of 5. Edited July 18, 2013 by GreenSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 QUOTE (LVSoxFan @ Jul 17, 2013 -> 05:07 PM) That's the way I heard it, it was basically the two sons fighting for Dad's (JR's) loyalty. KW won. It seemed like they were both jockeying for favor once we won the WS, each convinced that they were more responsible for it than the other. God I don't miss that soap opera. At least it was interesting. If we weren't gonna win it anyway, it was fun to follow the soap opera. I rather got a kick out of Oz's postgame and pregame interviews. I thought they were funny. This year there's nothing to follow except ridiculously bad baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 17, 2013 -> 09:47 PM) At least it was interesting. If we weren't gonna win it anyway, it was fun to follow the soap opera. I rather got a kick out of Oz's postgame and pregame interviews. I thought they were funny. This year there's nothing to follow except ridiculously bad baseball. Except those were talented teams capable of making the playoffs who got thrown off by the managers antics. But I guess a funny manager is more important than winning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSpalehoseCWS Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jul 17, 2013 -> 07:50 PM) Jackson 2 was terrible. WE took one of the top available starters at the deadline, and salary dumped him and Teahen. We got a mediocre middle reliever and a prospect who was in decline. We recouped with the subsequent trade of the reliever back to the Jays. But Jackson 2 was beyond awful - didn't make any effort at all to get talent out of that deal. We did it to dump salary (Jackson was pitching very well) and to help out Toronto who needed him to get the CF they wanted from Stl. Maybe I'm jaded because WE gave up our 2 top pitching prospects for him a year earlier, at a time when Az was looking for a salary dump and he had an ERA in excess of 5. I hate to play this game, but the Sox then traded Frasor for Webb and Jaye, both of whom look pretty damn good this year. So it may not be as bad of a trade as it seems. I still think trading Hudson for Jackson was worse than what the 2nd Jackson trade brought back; even including Hudson's 2 injuries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jul 18, 2013 -> 03:38 AM) Except those were talented teams capable of making the playoffs who got thrown off by the managers antics. But I guess a funny manager is more important than winning. See, we'll never know. I was told by a respected poster that last year's collapse was cause the Sox ran out of gas and were injured. How the heck do we know that? We blame running out of gas because Robin is liked. How do we know Oz's antics affected the team in any way? You still have to hit the ball and pitch the ball and field it. Why does Oz get blamed and not Robin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 QUOTE (CWSpalehoseCWS @ Jul 17, 2013 -> 11:31 PM) I hate to play this game, but the Sox then traded Frasor for Webb and Jaye, both of whom look pretty damn good this year. So it may not be as bad of a trade as it seems. I still think trading Hudson for Jackson was worse than what the 2nd Jackson trade brought back; even including Hudson's 2 injuries. Completely agree. I didn't hate the 1st Jackson deal because they traded Hudson. I hated it because I thought they could have gotten so much more for Daniel Hudson and David Holmberg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 17, 2013 -> 11:53 PM) See, we'll never know. I was told by a respected poster that last year's collapse was cause the Sox ran out of gas and were injured. How the heck do we know that? We blame running out of gas because Robin is liked. How do we know Oz's antics affected the team in any way? You still have to hit the ball and pitch the ball and field it. Why does Oz get blamed and not Robin? No, it's not because Robin is liked, only you think that. Konerko & Youkilis are still injured from last year. De Aza had a back injuty throught the second half. Peavy, Sale, & Q were nearly doubling their innings pitched from the season before. All I know is that the team completely rejuvenated in 2012 after going through all of Ozzie's drama in 2011 and I'm not the only one who noticed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 17, 2013 -> 11:53 PM) See, we'll never know. I was told by a respected poster that last year's collapse was cause the Sox ran out of gas and were injured. How the heck do we know that? We blame running out of gas because Robin is liked. How do we know Oz's antics affected the team in any way? You still have to hit the ball and pitch the ball and field it. Why does Oz get blamed and not Robin? No greg, we know. You just will never admit it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jul 18, 2013 -> 12:29 AM) Completely agree. I didn't hate the 1st Jackson deal because they traded Hudson. I hated it because I thought they could have gotten so much more for Daniel Hudson and David Holmberg. How do you know that he could have gotten more value? That's why I hate armchair GM'ing. Nobody here knows anything about the trade value of a player in any given year. It's not like Hudson was a top 10 prospect that was over matching everyone. It's not like Jackson wasn't highly sought after. It was a good trade that worked well for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 17, 2013 -> 11:53 PM) See, we'll never know. I was told by a respected poster that last year's collapse was cause the Sox ran out of gas and were injured. How the heck do we know that? We blame running out of gas because Robin is liked. How do we know Oz's antics affected the team in any way? You still have to hit the ball and pitch the ball and field it. Why does Oz get blamed and not Robin? It's impossible to know exactly what would have happened in 2010 had the Sox signed Thome instead of the Twins, but it's safe to say that he was the deciding factor between the Sox and Twins that season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 18, 2013 -> 12:53 AM) See, we'll never know. I was told by a respected poster that last year's collapse was cause the Sox ran out of gas and were injured. How the heck do we know that? We blame running out of gas because Robin is liked. How do we know Oz's antics affected the team in any way? You still have to hit the ball and pitch the ball and field it. Why does Oz get blamed and not Robin? Ozzie was the manager in 2006. That team legitimately ran out of gas and there was also an unexpectedly hot Detroit team to compete with, it wasn't Ozzie's fault. In 2007 they were legitimately bad, there were injuries, a laughably bad bullpen, so Ozzie wasn't blamed for it. By 2011 we'd seen a few consecutive years of Ozzie's antics where he was sandbagging it or otherwise undermining the team, to the point where he outright quit on the team. That's the difference. I don't even think anyone's under the illusion that Robin is a great manager (how could he be?) but he doesn't have much to work with either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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