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Adam Engel

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QUOTE (bmags @ Sep 6, 2017 -> 11:56 AM)
I find it kinda odd how much we heard about Sanchez' arm being a detriment to being a true utility player (playing SS), and yet I've been watching him throw ropes from 3rd base every game.

 

Sanchez playing all infield positions makes him absolutely bench player #1. He's too good and valuable to young pitchers.

 

Just spitballing (leaving C out as thats a bit different beast)

 

LF Cordell?

CF L Garcia

RF A Garcia

3b Davidson

SS Anderson

3b Yoan

1b Abreu

DH Delmonico

 

Next tier priority

Yolmer

Cordell

Gillaspie

 

Fight it out

W Garcia

Engel

Saladino

Hansen

Tilson (hahaha jk)

Peterson

Liriano

J Peter

 

If you are currently in that Fight It Out tier and in the big leagues, I'd just soak it in.

 

Like this year, it very well may come down to who is out of options next year. We know that Davidson, Yolmer, and Leury are. Cordell and Gillaspie have been on a 40 man for at least 2 years, so they may be out of options next year. Pretty sure sure Liriano and Peterson will be as well. Not sure on Willy or Saladino (guessing Tyler is and Willy isn't). Engel, Tilson, Peter should all be able to be safely sent to AAA (Peter not even on 40 yet).

Edited by ChiSox59

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QUOTE (BrianAnderson @ Sep 6, 2017 -> 12:49 PM)
To clarify - yes. That was all sarcasm - I thought I laid it on thick so I didn't use the green font. I love defense as much as anybody and I'd love a Saladino or Engel on my team in a playoff run but they just never will be good enough offensively to make up for it.

 

Also to clarify - someone said they hate when people say they hate the board sometimes. I really don't care. I'm allowed to roll my eyes when people suggest that Engel, who has 28 CAREER homeruns (OVER 5 SEASONS) in the minors is going to suddenly hit 25 a year in the majors. I like this board when I can discuss prospects and the future in a civilized, realistic manner. But I feel like a lot of times the board is just a bunch of topics about _________ hot streak and can they be a piece in our 2019 run to the playoffs?

 

Kevan Smith, Engel, Delmonico, Yolmer, Saladino, etc. etc.

 

None of them will be contributing members yet there have been discussions dedicated to each of these players. (And yes, I know I can be over-reactive the other way. I dismiss all these guys. I have softened on Delmonico as a contributing member in the future -- but only as a bench player at best IMO

 

And you contribute to this civility by telling everyone here how much you hate them. Seems reasonable.

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QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Sep 6, 2017 -> 12:56 PM)
It's not like there's a whole lot of other White Sox-related stuff to talk about right now though, so of course these types of discussions are going to pop up. The part we're in now is the most boring part of the rebuild. There's no one left to trade, and most of the guys who will be future contributors are in the minors. What kind of discussions are you expecting?

 

Yep. Welcome to the next two years of draft position discussion and laying out future line ups.

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I fully expect Hahn to go bargain hunting in FA for potential deadline flips. So there should be some discussion around those signings and the deadline (hopefully) still. But the storm of trade talk is well beyond us.

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QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Sep 6, 2017 -> 11:50 AM)
this made me laugh

So Engel is baseball's Steve Austin ( not the wrestler) ?

 

He looks so real!

Edited by BlackSox13

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QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Sep 6, 2017 -> 08:34 AM)
This is the biggest contradiction ever.

 

Saladino, Sanchez, and Alvarez have never hit more than 9 home runs in a season, yet they apparently have the potential to hit 25.

Engel has never hit more than 7 home runs in a season, yet he's the one out of the four that's apparently not going to figure it out and become a sudden home run hitter, despite being the youngest.

 

This was either a remarkably poorly informed post or a troll attempt.

Sometimes I am truly astounded with peoples inability to detect sarcasm. All he was doing was pointing out that we wish and pray and hope for guys who in his opinion don't deserve it which is Saladino, Sanchez along with Engel.

 

Edit: Realize this was answered and is no knock on you Jose . Sarcasm is one of those things that is harder to pick up in writing I guess because you can't hear tone of voice. I just see it a lot here .

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

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QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Sep 6, 2017 -> 01:16 PM)
I fully expect Hahn to go bargain hunting in FA for potential deadline flips. So there should be some discussion around those signings and the deadline (hopefully) still. But the storm of trade talk is well beyond us.

 

AFter how little players like JD Martinez netted as a rental and legitimately great bat, I don't see us doing that. Maybe a catcher.

 

I think we'll sign some camp invitee pitchers and a bunch of bullpen flyers, but I can't see us doing more than some waiver claims we don't mind losing if they are DFAd such as Asche and Liriano.

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I don't have an opinion on the matter, but I'll just say it's really hard to get a good bearing on a CF unless you see them get a ton of reps in person, not on TV. You can't see their jumps, reads and instincts on TV.

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QUOTE (bmags @ Sep 6, 2017 -> 01:39 PM)
AFter how little players like JD Martinez netted as a rental and legitimately great bat, I don't see us doing that. Maybe a catcher.

 

I think we'll sign some camp invitee pitchers and a bunch of bullpen flyers, but I can't see us doing more than some waiver claims we don't mind losing if they are DFAd such as Asche and Liriano.

 

Agreed. We could use a backend SP and some relief arms, but we have plenty of guys that need at bats. Don't really see the point in scrap heaping bats. Minors deals? Sure, go to town. But we need to continue to give Davidson, Delmonico, Leury, Cordell, etc., etc., at bats.

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QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Sep 6, 2017 -> 11:42 AM)
Agreed. We could use a backend SP and some relief arms, but we have plenty of guys that need at bats. Don't really see the point in scrap heaping bats. Minors deals? Sure, go to town. But we need to continue to give Davidson, Delmonico, Leury, Cordell, etc., etc., at bats.

Hope Cordell isn't the next Tilson. I think most of us expected to see him this year but it never happened.

 

On June 30th he was placed on the 7 day disabled list retroactive to June 27th. He didn't play at all when the Sox traded for him on July 26th. He didn't play at all for Charlotte the rest of the season. That's over 90 days when he was originally placed on 7 day DL .

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

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QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Sep 6, 2017 -> 01:58 PM)
Hope Cordell isn't the next Tilson. I think most of us expected to see him this year but it never happened.

 

Yah back problems are no joke.

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QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Sep 6, 2017 -> 01:22 PM)
Sometimes I am truly astounded with peoples inability to detect sarcasm. All he was doing was pointing out that we wish and pray and hope for guys who in his opinion don't deserve it which is Saladino, Sanchez along with Engel.

 

Edit: Realize this was answered and is no knock on you Jose . Sarcasm is one of those things that is harder to pick up in writing I guess because you can't hear tone of voice. I just see it a lot here .

 

 

Thanks. I'm not trying to come off as a dick or attack anybody on the board. I'm here reading daily, posting semi-weekly. I just can't stand the topics sometimes. And I get it's because of the state of the Sox. We want ANYTHING to be excited for.

 

I just think there are levels to that. Yolmer was a legit discussion when he was named Carlos and was 23. Saladino was a legit discussion after he did well for a full year. Engel is not a legit discussion cause he's never done anything. Delmonico isn't legit cause its been a few weeks.

I'd much rather have conversations about free agent classes, the approach of Renteria with the bullpen or bunting, how Giolito is mixing pitches better, or Moncada's approach at the plate and the positives and negatives that may bring down the line.

 

Instead I feel like this board sometimes reverts back to the lowest common denominator of "Engel made a nice catch" which then equals "can he be our everyday CF?"

 

s*** I get it. It's painful. I just want more baseball analytical discussion than sometimes what happens on this board. If not give me discussion on Giolito, Lopez, etc. rather than Delmonico and Davidson

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QUOTE (BrianAnderson @ Sep 6, 2017 -> 02:22 PM)
Thanks. I'm not trying to come off as a dick or attack anybody on the board. I'm here reading daily, posting semi-weekly. I just can't stand the topics sometimes. And I get it's because of the state of the Sox. We want ANYTHING to be excited for.

 

I just think there are levels to that. Yolmer was a legit discussion when he was named Carlos and was 23. Saladino was a legit discussion after he did well for a full year. Engel is not a legit discussion cause he's never done anything. Delmonico isn't legit cause its been a few weeks.

I'd much rather have conversations about free agent classes, the approach of Renteria with the bullpen or bunting, how Giolito is mixing pitches better, or Moncada's approach at the plate and the positives and negatives that may bring down the line.

 

Instead I feel like this board sometimes reverts back to the lowest common denominator of "Engel made a nice catch" which then equals "can he be our everyday CF?"

 

s*** I get it. It's painful. I just want more baseball analytical discussion than sometimes what happens on this board. If not give me discussion on Giolito, Lopez, etc. rather than Delmonico and Davidson

Those discussions are happening though, there are threads about pretty much all of those topics. You can always just ignore the threads about Engel/Delmonico/Davidson/Yolmer/whoever, no one is forcing you to read them.

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QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Sep 6, 2017 -> 03:08 PM)
Those discussions are happening though, there are threads about pretty much all of those topics. You can always just ignore the threads about Engel/Delmonico/Davidson/Yolmer/whoever, no one is forcing you to read them.

 

Or... and maybe I am just being crazy here... start a new thread with your topic of choice?

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QUOTE (BrianAnderson @ Sep 6, 2017 -> 12:22 PM)
Thanks. I'm not trying to come off as a dick or attack anybody on the board. I'm here reading daily, posting semi-weekly. I just can't stand the topics sometimes. And I get it's because of the state of the Sox. We want ANYTHING to be excited for.

 

I just think there are levels to that. Yolmer was a legit discussion when he was named Carlos and was 23. Saladino was a legit discussion after he did well for a full year. Engel is not a legit discussion cause he's never done anything. Delmonico isn't legit cause its been a few weeks.

I'd much rather have conversations about free agent classes, the approach of Renteria with the bullpen or bunting, how Giolito is mixing pitches better, or Moncada's approach at the plate and the positives and negatives that may bring down the line.

 

Instead I feel like this board sometimes reverts back to the lowest common denominator of "Engel made a nice catch" which then equals "can he be our everyday CF?"

 

s*** I get it. It's painful. I just want more baseball analytical discussion than sometimes what happens on this board. If not give me discussion on Giolito, Lopez, etc. rather than Delmonico and Davidson

Hey we are mostly fans first. We have our favorite players and not all the time are they good. Allow us some whimsy .We are fans not scientists. scouts or mathematicians. As some of us like to say Lighten up Francis .

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QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Sep 6, 2017 -> 01:42 PM)
I don't have an opinion on the matter, but I'll just say it's really hard to get a good bearing on a CF unless you see them get a ton of reps in person, not on TV. You can't see their jumps, reads and instincts on TV.

To that point, I remember being very discouraged with Engel's jumps and reads (both on TV and in person) during his first few weeks here, but he has improved greatly in that department since.

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QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Sep 6, 2017 -> 03:48 PM)
To that point, I remember being very discouraged with Engel's jumps and reads (both on TV and in person) during his first few weeks here, but he has improved greatly in that department since.

 

Looking at his D numbers now, they have all gone positive except for a small negative to his arm.

 

If you drop down to his Inside Edge numbers, you can see where his range comes into play. He has made 100% of plays in the routine range (90-100% prob) 100% in the likely range (60-90%), 80% in the even range (40-60%), and 33% in the unlikely (10-40%) and even 6.3% of the remote plays (1-10% chance). He is either above or at the top end of each of those ranges. That means he is likely getting good reads and routes, because Engel is not a guy with 80 speed to make up for bad reads and routes.

 

Obviously we are still in SSS range, but the early numbers are very positive.

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Since I'n the one who started this thread, please allow me to clarify my intent. Adam Engel is not a "one tool" player, and he is intriguing because he has elite defensive skills and tools, for an important defensive position. Of course, it's the "if" that is problematic, and I agree that you could say that about any player; "if Davidson were an elite defender, with great speed, a great batting eye, terrific contact skills and a great baseball acumen, to go along with his considerable power, wouldn't he be something?".

 

However, it is not necessary to stretch the imagination, in order to see Engel's realistic potential. He is really only lacking in one critical skill; he does not make consistent contact. We don't know what the cause is. Is he swinging at bad pitches, is it his approach, or bad mechanics?

He has power and elite speed and athleticism, do go along with his stellar defense, but obviously he has got to figure out how to become a productive, or at least acceptable hitter.

 

There is a reason that he was a pretty highly ranked prospect in our system, and why management is still trying to provide him with opportunities to develop, even at the MLB level. Apparently, those of us who are intrigued, are not alone. Look, hitting at the Major League level is incredibly difficult and is more of a learned skill, than a natural athletic gift. We are seeing plenty of guys initially look clueless, but later learn to be good hitters.

 

You can't teach speed, athleticism or power, but you can teach hitting. It's a skill and you don't need to be big, or strong to do it well. Look at Altuve. That little guy is leading the League and his Slugging % is amazing, for a guy of such small stature. I'd just like to see Engel develop the ability to barrel up the ball. He would be a real stud.

 

Again, I'll simply quote Future Sox, in their assessment:

"Engel has true plus-plus speed, a strong arm and elite athleticism. He's gotten body comps to Mike Trout, and he's got enough strength that some scouts see latent power potential he's yet to tap into. Defensively, he's a true center fielder who tracks well, has the speed to cover a lot of ground and a very good arm, so that's already a foundation to work from."

Edited by Lillian

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 6, 2017 -> 02:56 PM)
Looking at his D numbers now, they have all gone positive except for a small negative to his arm.

 

If you drop down to his Inside Edge numbers, you can see where his range comes into play. He has made 100% of plays in the routine range (90-100% prob) 100% in the likely range (60-90%), 80% in the even range (40-60%), and 33% in the unlikely (10-40%) and even 6.3% of the remote plays (1-10% chance). He is either above or at the top end of each of those ranges. That means he is likely getting good reads and routes, because Engel is not a guy with 80 speed to make up for bad reads and routes.

 

Obviously we are still in SSS range, but the early numbers are very positive.

 

Interesting stats. Thanks. Regarding his speed, who on the Sox has more speed than Engel? I would guess that perhaps Anderson and Moncada possess Engel's speed, but I doubt that they are faster.

Edited by Lillian

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QUOTE (BrianAnderson @ Sep 6, 2017 -> 09:39 AM)
I just think if Tyler Saladino could hit .270 with 25HR he would be a good fit. Same with Yolmer. You know who else impresses me in the minors? Eddy Alvarez.. if he could hit .250 with 25hrs he could be our next SS for 5-7 years.

 

 

I can't stand this board sometimes.

Adam Engel makes a nice catch and all of a sudden we go goo goo ga ga over him.

 

He's never hit more than 7 hr's in a season. He's not figuring it out now at 25 years old.

He should be happy he's in the Sox organization when they suck cause he wouldn't sniff the majors if he was on 25 other MLB orginizations. He should be happy that he can tell his grandkids he played in the MLB and that he accrued MLB time and is on the 40 man roster and gets a nice bump in AAA for a while. Other than that? Sorry. His biggest role EVER on a contending team should be in September to be a late inning defensive guy for like 1 inning total. Or running the bases. But in two years when we are hopefully good? He's 27. And guess what? You can find his speed elsewhere readily and you can find defense almost anywhere too.

 

 

Engel can be throw into the pile with almost everybody on this team ... thanks for being a warm body and playing mlb baseball for a year and a half.

 

Digging back here after looking at his fielding stats, I do want to point out that this is actually wrong. He actually has 12 homers between 2 levels this year. He hit 8 homers for Charlotte in 192 PAs, and has 4 more for the White Sox in 441 PAs. Penciled out over 550 PAs that works out to 15 homers in a season. While it isn't quite 25 homers yet, it also isn't 7. It is also worth pointing out that his Charlotte power numbers of 8 homers in 192 PAs works out to 23 homers in a 550 PA season. That IS really close to 25.

 

It is also worth pointing out that he he has put some solid doubles numbers up through the minors so it isn't a stretch to think that with some strength as he ages, he could start seeing doubles turn into homers.

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QUOTE (Lillian @ Sep 6, 2017 -> 04:05 PM)
Interesting stats. Thanks. Regarding his speed, who on the Sox has more speed than Engel? I would guess that perhaps Anderson and Moncada possess Engel's speed, but I doubt that they are faster.

 

I would put say that Moncada and Hansen are probably faster. I think Engel probably rates more of a 65 or 70 after seeing him in action.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 6, 2017 -> 03:15 PM)
I would put say that Moncada and Hansen are probably faster. I think Engel probably rates more of a 65 or 70 after seeing him in action.

 

Oh yes, I forgot about Hanson. He is very fast. Aren't you impressed with Engel's speed, running to first? He looks awfully fast to me.

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QUOTE (Lillian @ Sep 6, 2017 -> 04:22 PM)
Oh yes, I forgot about Hanson. He is very fast. Aren't you impressed with Engel's speed, running to first? He looks awfully fast to me.

 

65 or 70 is really fast. 80 is top of the scale. 50 is average.

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Here is what MLB had to say about him, last year, in their Pipeline assessments, which rated his speed as 80:

 

Engel was one of the best athletes and biggest enigmas in the 2013 Draft, which is why he lasted 19 rounds and signed for $100,000. He batted just .265 with two homers in three years at Louisville and provided inconsistent production in his first three pro seasons. He led the Class A Advanced Carolina League with 90 runs and 65 steals last year, but also topped the circuit with 132 strikeouts and posted just a .704 OPS at age 23.

 

But Engel made adjustments in the second half and flourished in the Arizona Fall League, winning MVP honors while pacing the prospect showcase in batting (.403), on-base percentage (.536) and slugging (.642). Though AFL statistics must be taken with a grain of salt, his right-handed swing was much smoother and his rhythm and timing were much improved. He seemed to recognize pitches better and was able to stay back on balls and drive them more consistently.

 

Engel never has lacked for strength or bat speed, and if he can become even an average hitter with average power he can make a huge impact at the big league level. His top-of-the-line speed makes him a disruptive force on the bases and a defensive asset in center field, where he shows fine instincts. Even if his AFL performance was a mirage, his tools should allow him to contribute as a fourth outfielder.

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