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Sox acquire Nomar Mazara for Steele Walker

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8 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

You should be ecstatic about this move bmags.  This is the front office saying they did not want to commit large sums of money to Ozuna or Castellanos and is buying some time until next offseason for a run at Betts, Springer, Pederson, etc.  

I am 100% ok with that logic, but wish they acquired a stop-gap with far more certainty than Mazara.  After missing out on Wheeler and now going with a highly question but talented player in RF, we quickly seem to be punting on the 2020 season and creating a three year window.  Maybe they surprise with far more impactful pitching additions than I’m currently expecting or possibly extend the window with extensions with Yoan & Giolito, but right now the plan seems very much disjointed and is putting a ton of pressure on us to land an impact RF next offseason.

Betts, Springer won’t happen, as the Sox will fail to execute IMO. Pederson is essentially the same type of hitter as Mazara in the sense that they both cannot hit lefties for jack shit. Not sure they want to duplicate that problem. Yes, Joc is the better overall player by a long shot, but he won’t be worth spending $15-17M AAV on next offseason. I’d love to see Springer, but we know that won’t happen. Keep kicking the can down the road, give fans hope, then fail to execute... it’s the White Sox motto. It’s a wonder why we expect anything different than this never ending repetitive cycle, myself included. 

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1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Walker could have been used for all sorts of things and the issue here isn’t the price we paid for Mazara but what it represents.  20 HRs from a corner OF is not good in the juiced ball era and RBIs are pretty much a meaningless stat.  The reality is we just settled on a guy who was about 10% better than league average against RHP (despite a BABIP 35 points higher than his career average) to be the strong side of a RF platoon.  This same player offers negative value in the field and on the bases.  He’s also one of the worst hitters in all of baseball against LHP.  As much as people think platoons work our perfectly, he will face some lefties and that will bring down his overall offensive numbers.  He needs to take a significant leap forward next year or won’t be a very useful player for us.

He's also 24 and a former top 15 prospect. I don't think there's any doubt that Mazara has a lot more talent than Walker. 

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Just to add a little less hyperbolic perspective: Below are Mazara's Career Stats. Putting aside the fact that he is considerably better against RHP, the numbers are still pretty decent, especially for a player as young as he is. As a 22 year old, in just his 2ND season, he had 30 doubles, 20 homers and 101 RBI's. The following season, he matched his home run total, in 20 fewer games and actually improved his Slugging % and OPS. Last year, while dealing with a thumb injury and missing most of the final 2 months, he still hit 27 doubles and 19 homers, while putting up his career best Average, Slugging % and OPS. If you project his totals for last season, over a full 162 games, he would have had 37 doubles, 26 homers and 92 RBI's. I frankly don't understand how those numbers haven't ever translated into a better WAR, but I guess it's the negative defense. At any rate, the kid has actually performed pretty well, and with arguably untapped potential, he's not a bad gamble. The biggest concern is that he only has two more years of control. 

Year Age Tm Lg G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB Pos Awards
2016 21 TEX AL 145 568 516 59 137 13 3 20 64 0 2 39 112 .266 .320 .419 .739 93 216 12 6 0 7 1 *97/D RoY-5
2017 22 TEX AL 148 616 554 64 140 30 2 20 101 2 2 55 127 .253 .323 .422 .745 90 234 12 4 0 3 6 *97D  
2018 23 TEX AL 128 536 489 61 126 25 1 20 77 1 0 40 116 .258 .317 .436 .753 96 213 13 4 0 3 2 *9D/7  
2019 24 TEX AL 116 469 429 69 115 27 1 19 66 4 1 28 108 .268 .318 .469 .786 96 201 5 6 0 6 2 9/D  
4 Yrs 537 2189 1988 253 518 95 7 79 308 7 5 162 463 .261 .320 .435 .754 93 864 42 20 0 19 11    
162 Game Avg. 162 660 600 76 156 29 2 24 93 2 2 49 140 .261 .320 .435 .754 93 261 13 6 0 6 3    
 
 
 
Edited by Lillian
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3 minutes ago, Soxnfins said:

Isn’t he with ISE? Or was that previously? 

If he's not with Boras that changes the equation a bit. 

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Just now, daa84 said:

People don’t realize how big of a difference it is from A ball to the majors. 

Yeah, I saw some reactions last night saying the Sox could have just rolled Walker out there next year instead of Mazara.  I would assume (hope) that it was frustration talking.  Mazara is a proven MLB hitter that hits very well against RH pitching.  Walker, and most of the other OF prospects the Sox have, are not ready for the ML in 2020.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this a great move.  It's just not a bad one.

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7 hours ago, Sleepy Harold said:

 

If that’s the best news the dude is going to report on, this offseason is going to suck. They better sign some pitchers before they really look like shit with their lack of moves and spending (Grandal should have just been the start).

Edited by The Beast

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I dont get the hate. He was not my top choice but he is a LH bat and had a high pedigree. Would he be the first ever player to put it all together in season 5? He is also, what? 24/25?

I liked Walker but since its a straight up swap I am not that mad. We can platoon him with L. Garcia/Angel.

Now move on to Ryu and Lindbloom + bullpen.

If we miss on Ryu go for Lindbloom + Wood.

 

Not exactly what we wanted but still improvement and were bound to get a player who you did not expect to break out to do so...... right? lol

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7 minutes ago, Lillian said:

Just to add a little less hyperbolic perspective: Below are Mazara's Career Stats. Putting aside the fact that he is considerably better against RHP, the numbers are still pretty decent, especially for a player as young as he is. As a 22 year old, in just his 2ND season, he had 30 doubles, 20 homers and 101 RBI's. The following season, he matched his home run total, in 20 fewer games and actually improved his Slugging % and OPS. Last year, while dealing with a thumb injury and missing most of the final 2 months, he still hit 27 doubles and 19 homers, while putting up his career best Average, Slugging % and OPS. If you project his totals for last season, over a full 162 games, he would have had 37 doubles, 26 homers and 92 RBI's. I frankly don't understand how those numbers haven't ever translated into a better WAR, but I guess it's the negative defense. At any rate, the kid has actually performed pretty well, and with arguably untapped potential, he's not a bad gamble. The biggest concern is that he only has two more years of control. 

Year Age Tm Lg G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB Pos Awards
2016 21 TEX AL 145 568 516 59 137 13 3 20 64 0 2 39 112 .266 .320 .419 .739 93 216 12 6 0 7 1 *97/D RoY-5
2017 22 TEX AL 148 616 554 64 140 30 2 20 101 2 2 55 127 .253 .323 .422 .745 90 234 12 4 0 3 6 *97D  
2018 23 TEX AL 128 536 489 61 126 25 1 20 77 1 0 40 116 .258 .317 .436 .753 96 213 13 4 0 3 2 *9D/7  
2019 24 TEX AL 116 469 429 69 115 27 1 19 66 4 1 28 108 .268 .318 .469 .786 96 201 5 6 0 6 2 9/D  
4 Yrs 537 2189 1988 253 518 95 7 79 308 7 5 162 463 .261 .320 .435 .754 93 864 42 20 0 19 11    
162 Game Avg. 162 660 600 76 156 29 2 24 93 2 2 49 140 .261 .320 .435 .754 93 261 13 6 0 6 3    
 
 
 

This is the first thing I looked at when I saw the rumors yesterday.  I get WAR, I understand it, but traditional stats tell a good part of the story.  This guy can hit, and he's going to hit many a HR at the Rate.  Lots of splashes at the Goose Island.

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5 minutes ago, Lillian said:

Just to add a little less hyperbolic perspective: Below are Mazara's Career Stats. Putting aside the fact that he is considerably better against RHP, the numbers are still pretty decent, especially for a player as young as he is. As a 22 year old, in just his 2ND season, he had 30 doubles, 20 homers and 101 RBI's. The following season, he matched his home run total, in 20 fewer games and actually improved his Slugging % and OPS. Last year, while dealing with a thumb injury and missing most of the final 2 months, he still hit 27 doubles and 19 homers, while putting up his career best Average, Slugging % and OPS. If you project his totals for last season, over a full 162 games, he would have had 37 doubles, 26 homers and 92 RBI's. I frankly don't understand how those numbers haven't ever translated in a better WAR, but I guess it's the negative defense. At any rate, the kid has actually performed pretty well, and with arguably untapped potential, he's not a bad gamble. The biggest concern is that he is only has two more years of control. 

Year Age Tm Lg G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB Pos Awards
2016 21 TEX AL 145 568 516 59 137 13 3 20 64 0 2 39 112 .266 .320 .419 .739 93 216 12 6 0 7 1 *97/D RoY-5
2017 22 TEX AL 148 616 554 64 140 30 2 20 101 2 2 55 127 .253 .323 .422 .745 90 234 12 4 0 3 6 *97D  
2018 23 TEX AL 128 536 489 61 126 25 1 20 77 1 0 40 116 .258 .317 .436 .753 96 213 13 4 0 3 2 *9D/7  
2019 24 TEX AL 116 469 429 69 115 27 1 19 66 4 1 28 108 .268 .318 .469 .786 96 201 5 6 0 6 2 9/D  
4 Yrs 537 2189 1988 253 518 95 7 79 308 7 5 162 463 .261 .320 .435 .754 93 864 42 20 0 19 11    
162 Game Avg. 162 660 600 76 156 29 2 24 93 2 2 49 140 .261 .320 .435 .754 93 261 13 6 0 6 3    
 
 
 

Defensively he’s slightly below average, but in 18 he had a 6.3 ARM, so that’s a positive... might be an outlier as the other years have been closer to average arm wise. 18 was a slightly above average defensive year for him, but otherwise his career UZR/150 is -3.2 (combined LF&RF).... RF he’s literally average at 0.0 UZR/150, he has an up,down,up,down, if suits follows he’ll have a slightly above average year in RF this year. 

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1 hour ago, Sarava said:

We'll see I guess. I feel dejected this morning. It feels like it's setting in that this ownership has no intention of really going for it to win a World Series with this rebuild.

In all seriousness, they didn’t even make attempts at Cole or Strasburg.  It seems very unlikely they’ll make a run at Rendon.  Grandal was a tremendous signing and Wheeler would have been a fantastic addition but two guys alone shouldn’t reflect the “money will be spent”.  Now with RF filled, they are running out of things to spend their money this offseason.  Dallas Keuchel being our big pitching addition will not inspire much confidence amongst the fanbase.  Obviously they can save their money for next offseason, but there’s no guarantee that all the guys who are scheduled to be free agents will still be available by then and it’s not a great free agent class to begin with.  It really seems like it’s Mookie, Springer, Joc or bust at this point and let’s just hope none of those guys are represented by Boras.

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1 hour ago, bmags said:

Ha, this is a good point, though also why I hated the Walker pick. He was a fine guy but that draft was stocked in HS pitching and they went overslot for him

Unfortunately going overslot on college hitters in the 2nd round is our thing.

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4 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

In all seriousness, they didn’t even make attempts at Cole or Strasburg.  It seems very unlikely they’ll make a run at Rendon.  Grandal was a tremendous signing and Wheeler would have been a fantastic addition but two guys alone shouldn’t reflect the “money will be spent”.  Now with RF filled, they are running out of things to spend their money this offseason.  Dallas Keuchel being our big pitching addition will not inspire much confidence amongst the fanbase.  Obviously they can save their money for next offseason, but there’s no guarantee that all the guys who are scheduled to be free agents will still be available by then and it’s not a great free agent class to begin with.  It really seems like it’s Mookie, Springer, Joc or bust at this point and let’s just hope none of those guys are represented by Boras.

At this point, I'm down with trading Vaughn for a Pitcher. If it takes Vaughn/Dunning for Snell, do it. Nothing better is going to come up over the next two seasons. There's not a lot of hope unless Moncada/Giolito sign extensions. 

Edited by Jack Parkman

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2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

In all seriousness, they didn’t even make attempts at Cole or Strasburg.  It seems very unlikely they’ll make a run at Rendon.  Grandal was a tremendous signing and Wheeler would have been a fantastic addition but two guys alone shouldn’t reflect the “money will be spent”.  Now with RF filled, they are running out of things to spend their money this offseason.  Dallas Keuchel being our big pitching addition will not inspire much confidence amongst the fanbase.  Obviously they can save their money for next offseason, but there’s no guarantee that all the guys who are scheduled to be free agents will still be available by then and it’s not a great free agent class to begin with.  It really seems like it’s Mookie, Springer, Joc or bust at this point and let’s just hope none of those guys are represented by Boras.

Joc & Springer - Excel

Betts - VC

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Just now, Soxnfins said:

Joc & Springer - Excel

Betts - VC

Where are you getting this info? 

Who is Mazara's agency? There seems to be some confusion there. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

In all seriousness, they didn’t even make attempts at Cole or Strasburg.  

Well, no shit. If you ever had any expectation of the Sox offering anywhere near $300mm for a starting pitcher, you're just a masochist. It will never, ever, ever happen. 

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The Sox couldn’t lock up Machado or Wheeler.  They aren’t signing Rendon, Betts, or Springer.  Let’s be honest.

Joc is likely attainable but I have no doubt the Sox will give Mazara two full seasons to reach his “true potential.”

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I'm not mad they traded Walker, I could give a shit about any of the OF prospects we have because THEY DON'T HAVE A REALISTIC PATH TO THE WHITE SOX ANYWAYS.

What I am furious about, is they have a 70 million dollar payroll with numerous OF FA's capable of producing big numbers, and instead of just spending money, they used one of the few trade chips we have for a guy that fucking sucks.  We still don't have any pitching.  You don't think Walker would have had some value to aquire a SP?  This is the same shit they do all the time and it almost never works.  The window opens next year, and our RF is replacement level, with a 70 million dollar payroll.

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1 hour ago, The Sir said:

You’re missing the point. You wanted to know why these guys have limited ceilings. If there’s a guy with unlimited upside, like if Robert had been in the draft, he’s gone in the first few picks. A guy who’s still there at 45 or whatever, well there’s a reason for that.

Plenty of high upside HS players were available at 45.

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1 minute ago, BackDoorBreach said:

I'm not mad they traded Walker, I could give a shit about any of the OF prospects we have because THEY DON'T HAVE A REALISTIC PATH TO THE WHITE SOX ANYWAYS.

What I am furious about, is they have a 70 million dollar payroll with numerous OF FA's capable of producing big numbers, and instead of just spending money, they used one of the few trade chips we have for a guy that fucking sucks.  We still don't have any pitching.  You don't think Walker would have had some value to aquire a SP?  This is the same shit they do all the time and it almost never works.  The window opens next year, and our RF is replacement level, with a 70 million dollar payroll.

This this and this

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1 hour ago, The Sir said:

Thank you. I’d like to add the irony that people here see ABSURD potential in the likes of Basabe and Adolfo, who are barely younger than Mazara but with far worse results at far lower levels. If either of those guys puts up a .786 OPS in MLB ever, I’ll donate one of my testicles to science.

Hell, I joked about it last night before the trade was done, but this board’s weird hatred of Mazara was actually making people defend the reputation of Blake Rutherford. I’ve wondered for years why people were so down on Blake and what it would take to get people to treat him as a legit prospect, and apparently the answer was an Avi-esque 24 y/o OF from Texas.

There is no weird hatred of Mazara, he’s simply a bad player with some offensive upside, nothing more nothing less.

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