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COVID Thread Part Deux

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15 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I've tried to point out how some of society thinks about the vaccine issue (my opinions are not mine alone believe me) and basically nobody wants to hear this side. Think that might give a little hint on a tiny scale "what's wrong with our society?" We can't handle dissent from our own opinions anymore and the result is half the country screaming at the other half because admit it or not, in most cases people are saying "I AM RIGHT YOU ARE WRONG." Or saying much worse than that. It's going to lead to an official split in the country. When? Who knows. From what I've seen it's too late. No room for discussion or compromise for the most part.

And I'm saying both sides are at fault here in terms of not listening, reflecting on both sides of an issue.

"Some of society" isn't equal to scientific evidence.  This isn't some kind of "both sides" topic.  There is right and wrong here, which is way more valid than Nikkis cousins balls or whatever anecdotal BS that you think is equitable. The split in this country is going to be between people who believe propaganda and those who do not.

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3 hours ago, The Beast said:

To any neighborhood vaccine skeptics, anti-vaxxers or people with Greg’s positions (no need to re-explain how your positions are different Greg), this is for you:

https://www.thebulwark.com/the-anti-vax-ethos-of-live-and-let-die/

That is one, very good article. it is compelling. I will even re-read it. My only "rebut" of any kind in there is the acknowledgment that in the example the writer gave, 45 people in Texas who have been vaxxed have died. That worries me personally. Everybody on both sides of the issue should read that article, though. It is very interesting/compelling.

It said: "Between February and July, for example, there were nearly 9,000 COVID deaths in Texas. Only 43 of those people were vaccinated."

I don't like those stats and those 43 are the reason (in theory) the unvaxxed will not get vaxxed. Some are still dying no matter what.

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8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

"Some of society" isn't equal to scientific evidence.  This isn't some kind of "both sides" topic.  There is right and wrong here, which is way more valid than Nikkis cousins balls or whatever anecdotal BS that you think is equitable. The split in this country is going to be between people who believe propaganda and those who do not.

Not necessarily. In the article Beast submitted, it said 43 of the 9,000 who died between Feb. and July in Texas were vaccinated. Cold hard stats support your position and mine that one "should" be vaccinated. That stat in fact tells us an overwhelming number, "almost" all the deaths are of the unvaxxed.

There are plenty of normal people who would rather take their chances than be one of the 43 vaxxed who died. Not every member of the unvaxxed falls into the category u believe they do. Like Beast's article said "some are scared." it's not they believe propaganda they are scared and also distrust the government and the figures. 

I do respect your "right and wrong" statement. it is shared by Stern and I understand why many think that way.

Edited by greg775

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25 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I've tried to point out how some of society thinks about the vaccine issue (my opinions are not mine alone believe me) and basically nobody wants to hear this side. Think that might give a little hint on a tiny scale "what's wrong with our society?" We can't handle dissent from our own opinions anymore and the result is half the country screaming at the other half because admit it or not, in most cases people are saying "I AM RIGHT YOU ARE WRONG." Or saying much worse than that. It's going to lead to an official split in the country. When? Who knows. From what I've seen it's too late. No room for discussion or compromise for the most part.

And I'm saying both sides are at fault here in terms of not listening, reflecting on both sides of an issue.

You're right about the country's divisions. However, the hostility and threats against health care workers is insane and goes beyond people not listening. There is a large group of people who think intimidation and violence is a way to handle problems, They were there on January 6 and they are a part of the anti-vaccine crowd. We would be over this crisis if it weren't for these morons.

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11 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Not necessarily. In the article Beast submitted, it said 43 of the 9,000 who died between Feb. and July in Texas were vaccinated. Cold hard stats support your position and mine that one "should" be vaccinated. That stat in fact tells us an overwhelming number, "almost" all the deaths are of the unvaxxed.

There are plenty of normal people who would rather take their chances than be one of the 43 vaxxed who died. Not every member of the unvaxxed falls into the category u believe they do. Like Beast's article said "some are scared." it's not they believe propaganda they are scared and also distrust the government and the figures. 

I do respect your "right and wrong" statement. it is shared by Stern and I understand why many think that way.

So 9000 people are dead, and you are worried about the 43. It's also bold of you to assume that those 43 people wouldn't have died without the vaccine, when the science states the complete opposite. 

700,000 Americans are dead, and untold millions have had their lives turned upside-down by those deaths, not to mention the millions of covid long haulers,  and that doesn't scare you, but 43 people do.

I distrust posts like this.

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42 minutes ago, greg775 said:

In the article Beast submitted, it said 43 of the 9,000 who died between Feb. and July in Texas were vaccinated.

There are plenty of normal people who would rather take their chances than be one of the 43 vaxxed who died.

Is it "normal" to bet on the worst odds? Sadly, it may be, but let's not lose sight of what it is.

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17 hours ago, whitesoxfan99 said:

I don’t get why people respond to him.  Either a troll (always been my guess), intentional ignorant or remarkably dumb.  Either way, if everyone ignores him he goes away.  

But what is the fun in that? G7 *may* be a troll, but he’s our troll. Notice he never loses his cool. He stays in control no matter what is thrown at him. No one is better at ignoring facts, finding a hole, and slipping away. 
 

 

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2 hours ago, greg775 said:

That is one, very good article. it is compelling. I will even re-read it. My only "rebut" of any kind in there is the acknowledgment that in the example the writer gave, 45 people in Texas who have been vaxxed have died. That worries me personally. Everybody on both sides of the issue should read that article, though. It is very interesting/compelling.

It said: "Between February and July, for example, there were nearly 9,000 COVID deaths in Texas. Only 43 of those people were vaccinated."

I don't like those stats and those 43 are the reason (in theory) the unvaxxed will not get vaxxed. Some are still dying no matter what.

This is shocking levels of stupid, even for you. 

What you just said was “Listen, I guess I understand seatbelts save lives, but 43 people still died in car accidents when they were wearing seatbelts. So I understand why people just wouldn’t wear your seatbelt all together, because it doesn’t totally save you.”

You know why people aren’t civil anymore? Because of dumb shit like this. The vaccine isn’t full proof. No vaccine is. But it goes to great lengths to protect you. It should be an incredibly easy decision for those with even the slightest ounce of brain power. But we’ve seen countless times we are running dangerously low on supply of that right now. 

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5 minutes ago, Tony said:

This is shocking levels of stupid, even for you. 

What you just said was “Listen, I guess I understand seatbelts save lives, but 43 people still died in car accidents when they were wearing seatbelts. So I understand why people just wouldn’t wear your seatbelt all together, because it doesn’t totally save you.”

You know why people aren’t civil anymore? Because of dumb shit like this. The vaccine isn’t full proof. No vaccine is. But it goes to great lengths to protect you. It should be an incredibly easy decision for those with even the slightest ounce of brain power. But we’ve seen countless times we are running dangerously low on supply of that right now. 

Or to rephrase this.  

"Kansas Central A&M could beat Kansas in basketball. "

"No they can't that's just stupid. "

"You see that's why the country is splitting and no one trusts reporters."

 

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2 hours ago, greg775 said:

I've tried to point out how some of society thinks about the vaccine issue (my opinions are not mine alone believe me) and basically nobody wants to hear this side. Think that might give a little hint on a tiny scale "what's wrong with our society?" We can't handle dissent from our own opinions anymore and the result is half the country screaming at the other half because admit it or not, in most cases people are saying "I AM RIGHT YOU ARE WRONG." Or saying much worse than that. It's going to lead to an official split in the country. When? Who knows. From what I've seen it's too late. No room for discussion or compromise for the most part.

And I'm saying both sides are at fault here in terms of not listening, reflecting on both sides of an issue.

I truly wish I could have a conversation with a MAGA follower that doesn’t end up in personal attacks, but the only people I’ve been able to have conversations with are people who are liberal, never Trump republicans or independents. I can’t get the Trump wing to have an actual civilized conversation where we are even on the same wave length.

2 hours ago, greg775 said:

That is one, very good article. it is compelling. I will even re-read it. My only "rebut" of any kind in there is the acknowledgment that in the example the writer gave, 45 people in Texas who have been vaxxed have died. That worries me personally. Everybody on both sides of the issue should read that article, though. It is very interesting/compelling.

It said: "Between February and July, for example, there were nearly 9,000 COVID deaths in Texas. Only 43 of those people were vaccinated."

I don't like those stats and those 43 are the reason (in theory) the unvaxxed will not get vaxxed. Some are still dying no matter what.

43 dead out of 9,000 is 0.000477778%. Assuming the rest were vaccinated, that is a low percentage and even the most skeptical should realize that. These were also deaths from covid and not the vaccine. That percentage of deaths is also low too and I am not saying it doesn’t happen but it is extremely rare.

Edited by The Beast
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7 hours ago, NWINFan said:

You're right about the country's divisions. However, the hostility and threats against health care workers is insane and goes beyond people not listening. There is a large group of people who think intimidation and violence is a way to handle problems, They were there on January 6 and they are a part of the anti-vaccine crowd. We would be over this crisis if it weren't for these morons.

That's sad. I love health care workers who have worked amid the year and a half crisis. They are the true heroes trying to help covid infested patients live by running the respirators, etc. Who would threaten a health care worker?

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7 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

So 9000 people are dead, and you are worried about the 43. ... and that doesn't scare you, but 43 people do.

I distrust posts like this.

You always assume I am speaking for myself. I try because I'm really the only person on here with a dissenting Covid opinion (who posts) to point out what the anti vaccers are thinking and trying to say they are not all nutjobs.

And believe me some are seeing that vaccinated individuals have died from Covid and that scares THEM. What's wrong with me trying to stand up for the anti-vaxxers position and trying to explain it? I like my odds of not dying since I got vaxxed. That's why I got vaxxed. I'm personally distressed anybody died and yes the fact 43 who got vaxxed still died troubles me about the severity of this virus.

Edited by greg775

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23 hours ago, whitesoxfan99 said:

Either a troll (always been my guess), intentional ignorant or remarkably dumb.

I wouldn't wear it but this actually wouldn't be a bad T-shirt saying or line on a resume: It has a nice ring to it.

Give somebody a custom made T shirt that says: "Caution: This person is either a troll, intentionally ignorant or remarkably dumb." It rolls off the tongue and is an effective insult in 2021.

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5 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Or to rephrase this.  

"Kansas Central A&M could beat Kansas in basketball. "

"No they can't that's just stupid. "

"You see that's why the country is splitting and no one trusts reporters."

 

You and Tony's posts are OK. They make me think about my position and empathy for many of the unvaxxed.

Tony you wrote this. I have a sincere question to follow. You wrote: "You know why people aren’t civil anymore? Because of dumb shit like this. The vaccine isn’t full proof. No vaccine is. But it goes to great lengths to protect you. It should be an incredibly easy decision for those with even the slightest ounce of brain power. But we’ve seen countless times we are running dangerously low on supply of that right now. "

Easy decision you say? What say you to this TRUE instance (please believe me; I don't lie for the sake of my argument). What do you say to my sister in law's sister? Her son, who is 26 has been a mess physically since getting jabbed. She understandably now won't get jabbed nor will her hubby. They don't trust science or government when their own flesh and blood is hurting Here's what she sent me. What is your response to her Tony? Compassion or not? Is she a nutjob? No, of course not.

 

She wrote me: "My son still isn’t okay since the f-I got jab. He works remotely from our house, so he’s getting through the days. He’s seen his GP and a cardiologist but nothing has shown up abnormal so far. Next week he’ll see a gastroenterologist. If that guy doesn’t find the problem, he’ll see a pulmonary specialist. And on and on and on. Still in pain." 

And a friend of her's husband is in physical straits since he got jabbed. Your post was quite angry to the unvacced. I tend to feel for those with stories like these. Again they are not all nutjob conspiracy theorists.

Edited by greg775

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No Greg I don't believe any of that

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34 minutes ago, greg775 said:

You and Tony's posts are OK. They make me think about my position and empathy for many of the unvaxxed.

Tony you wrote this. I have a sincere question to follow. You wrote: "You know why people aren’t civil anymore? Because of dumb shit like this. The vaccine isn’t full proof. No vaccine is. But it goes to great lengths to protect you. It should be an incredibly easy decision for those with even the slightest ounce of brain power. But we’ve seen countless times we are running dangerously low on supply of that right now. "

Easy decision you say? What say you to this TRUE instance (please believe me; I don't lie for the sake of my argument). What do you say to my sister in law's sister? Her son, who is 26 has been a mess physically since getting jabbed. She understandably now won't get jabbed nor will her hubby. They don't trust science or government when their own flesh and blood is hurting Here's what she sent me. What is your response to her Tony? Compassion or not? Is she a nutjob? No, of course not.

 

She wrote me: "My son still isn’t okay since the f-I got jab. He works remotely from our house, so he’s getting through the days. He’s seen his GP and a cardiologist but nothing has shown up abnormal so far. Next week he’ll see a gastroenterologist. If that guy doesn’t find the problem, he’ll see a pulmonary specialist. And on and on and on. Still in pain." 

And a friend of her's husband is in physical straits since he got jabbed. Your post was quite angry to the unvacced. I tend to feel for those with stories like these. Again they are not all nutjob conspiracy theorists.

greg, I'll play your game. But I doubt you respond, but that's what you do. 

1. What evidence do they have his "symptoms" are from the vaccine? How long ago did he get the vaccine? Because seeing as it's been around for almost 8 or 9 months now, I have serious doubts she or her "hubby" were ever going to get vaccinated. They've had plenty of opportunities and seem like they are looking for a reason to tell people they won't get it. It sucks he's gotten "sick" since getting the vaccine. But he made the right decision in the grand scheme of things, given the options we all have to face. 

2. I will again use the seat belt argument. Let's say this son was killed in a car accident. He was wearing his seatbelt. But the sister in law and husband have always felt like their personal freedoms are more important, so they've always been on the fence about wearing their seatbelt. Now because of the accident, this pushed them over the edge, they aren't wearing it anymore because their son died even though he had his belt on. That doesn't make them right. Every piece of data will tell you that when you're driving, wearing a seat belt is safer than not having one on. And having a random, anecdotal piece of evidence that has personally affected you doesn't make your opinion better than science or data. 

3. A dozen people have already said it, but I'll say it in a slightly different way. If they don't want to get vaccinated, they are able to make that decision. They are within their right, currently in the US, to not take the vaccine for this incredibly deadly and infectious virus. It's the wrong decision, but people make wrong decisions everyday. But when/if they get COVID, they are fully responsible for whatever hand they get dealt. Our country (including Donald Trump's Operation Warp Speed) have created a free, highly accessible vaccine that has been proven to be incredibly affective against the COVID-19 virus. If you make the decision not to take it, whatever happens to you after that is on YOU, and quite frankly I have no compassion for anyone at this point who is still unvaccinated and has access to the vaccine. Because you aren't doing everything you can to avoid getting and spreading this virus.  

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2 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

No Greg I don't believe any of that

Believe it. Some peeps have had adverse reax to the jabs and thus their loved ones are worried/skeptical of the jabs. The question is will the country start becoming more tolerant of each other and empathize with each other's concerns? Or will we seek each other out on the street and attack each other? There's a good chunk of this country unwilling to be vaxxed and I prefer the days in which people killed each other with kindness rather than simply discarding them as if they are worthless nutjobs.

My friend's situation didn't bring out empathy in you?

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5 hours ago, greg775 said:

Believe it. Some peeps have had adverse reax to the jabs and thus their loved ones are worried/skeptical of the jabs. The question is will the country start becoming more tolerant of each other and empathize with each other's concerns? Or will we seek each other out on the street and attack each other? There's a good chunk of this country unwilling to be vaxxed and I prefer the days in which people killed each other with kindness rather than simply discarding them as if they are worthless nutjobs.

My friend's situation didn't bring out empathy in you?

I don't believe your friends situation so I am not empathetic.  I'm not going to argue with you about it because it simply isn't worth it.  You sit in this thread trying to be some sort of voice for the unvaccinated, like they need to that voice and they aren't loud and ignorant enough as it is.  You ask questions which are answered and like usual pretend like we never answered them, rinse and repeat.  And then say stuff like "oh I better not say anything or I will get in trouble" over and over.  Whatever man, I know this is all an act.  

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6 hours ago, greg775 said:

Believe it. Some peeps have had adverse reax to the jabs and thus their loved ones are worried/skeptical of the jabs. The question is will the country start becoming more tolerant of each other and empathize with each other's concerns? Or will we seek each other out on the street and attack each other? There's a good chunk of this country unwilling to be vaxxed and I prefer the days in which people killed each other with kindness rather than simply discarding them as if they are worthless nutjobs.

My friend's situation didn't bring out empathy in you?

Imagine there's a giant routlette wheel with 999 black spaces and 1 red space. You can bet on either color, but even though the odds are very different, you win the same amount if you win your bet. However, if you lose your bet, the people closest to you also lose their bet even if they bet on the winning color.

Now imagine that they guy next to you tells you that he's betting on red because he knows someone who bet on black and lost. Except that he doesn't actually know someone who bet on black and lost, but he read a post shared by someone on Facebook that claimed that someone bet on black and lost, but nobody has actually verified that this happened.

The unvaccinated are the people betting on red, and people betting on something with odds that bad do not need nor deserve to have anyone being a voice for them or having empathy for them.

 

Edited by WhiteSoxFan1993
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8 hours ago, greg775 said:

You and Tony's posts are OK. They make me think about my position and empathy for many of the unvaxxed.

Tony you wrote this. I have a sincere question to follow. You wrote: "You know why people aren’t civil anymore? Because of dumb shit like this. The vaccine isn’t full proof. No vaccine is. But it goes to great lengths to protect you. It should be an incredibly easy decision for those with even the slightest ounce of brain power. But we’ve seen countless times we are running dangerously low on supply of that right now. "

Easy decision you say? What say you to this TRUE instance (please believe me; I don't lie for the sake of my argument). What do you say to my sister in law's sister? Her son, who is 26 has been a mess physically since getting jabbed. She understandably now won't get jabbed nor will her hubby. They don't trust science or government when their own flesh and blood is hurting Here's what she sent me. What is your response to her Tony? Compassion or not? Is she a nutjob? No, of course not.

 

She wrote me: "My son still isn’t okay since the f-I got jab. He works remotely from our house, so he’s getting through the days. He’s seen his GP and a cardiologist but nothing has shown up abnormal so far. Next week he’ll see a gastroenterologist. If that guy doesn’t find the problem, he’ll see a pulmonary specialist. And on and on and on. Still in pain." 

And a friend of her's husband is in physical straits since he got jabbed. Your post was quite angry to the unvacced. I tend to feel for those with stories like these. Again they are not all nutjob conspiracy theorists.

700,000 Americans are dead.  Millions more have long covid symptoms. Yet all we talk about is this. 

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9 hours ago, greg775 said:

You always assume I am speaking for myself. I try because I'm really the only person on here with a dissenting Covid opinion (who posts) to point out what the anti vaccers are thinking and trying to say they are not all nutjobs.

And believe me some are seeing that vaccinated individuals have died from Covid and that scares THEM. What's wrong with me trying to stand up for the anti-vaxxers position and trying to explain it? I like my odds of not dying since I got vaxxed. That's why I got vaxxed. I'm personally distressed anybody died and yes the fact 43 who got vaxxed still died troubles me about the severity of this virus.

Then they need to understand math before considering their opinion and speaking.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 386 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through September 20, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 7,899 reports of death (0.0020%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. 

And they need to look up how effective vaccines are versus the misconception that vaccines are cures.

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6 hours ago, greg775 said:

Believe it. Some peeps have had adverse reax to the jabs and thus their loved ones are worried/skeptical of the jabs. The question is will the country start becoming more tolerant of each other and empathize with each other's concerns? Or will we seek each other out on the street and attack each other? There's a good chunk of this country unwilling to be vaxxed and I prefer the days in which people killed each other with kindness rather than simply discarding them as if they are worthless nutjobs.

My friend's situation didn't bring out empathy in you?

Let’s get all of these stories out in the open for consideration. More stories please. You said some peeps so there are likely more stories you have to share.

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9 hours ago, greg775 said:

She wrote me: "My son still isn’t okay since the f-I got jab. He works remotely from our house, so he’s getting through the days. He’s seen his GP and a cardiologist but nothing has shown up abnormal so far. Next week he’ll see a gastroenterologist. If that guy doesn’t find the problem, he’ll see a pulmonary specialist. And on and on and on. Still in pain." 

And a friend of her's husband is in physical straits since he got jabbed. Your post was quite angry to the unvacced. I tend to feel for those with stories like these. Again they are not all nutjob conspiracy theorists.

Greg, I believe that this is what you're told, but I'm highly confident that what you're being told is either a flat-out lie or a misunderstanding of what's going on. First of all, the very rare instances where there are legitimate bad reactions to the vaccine are documented. A GP doctor would have access to the history on vaccine complications and would know what's going on. Secondly, people don't just go to a bunch of specialists unreferred to find out what's wrong. If specialists are seeing patients without some indication that their area of specialty is involved, that's malpractice, either on the part of the GP for referring the patient or on the part of the specialist for taking the patient without a referral.

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https://gizmodo.com/anti-vaccine-cartoonist-ben-garrison-says-hes-got-covid-1847749901

 

“We’re taking Ivermectin and various vitamins including a lot of Zinc,” Garrison continued, explaining what he’s doing to treat the disease. The cartoonist also notes he’s taking beet root juice. None of this has been proven to treat or prevent covid-19, with monoclonal antibodies and vaccines being the only real ways to fight this pandemic, which is still raging in many parts of the world.

...

“I would never go to a hospital with Covid. Robert David Steele did it a few weeks ago and they killed him. The hospitals get extra money for Covid death reports, which is necessary to keep fear ramped up,” Garrison claimed in an email to Gizmodo.

Edited by BigSqwert

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4 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

I don't believe your friends situation so I am not empathetic.  I'm not going to argue with you about it because it simply isn't worth it.  You sit in this thread trying to be some sort of voice for the unvaccinated, like they need to that voice and they aren't loud and ignorant enough as it is.  You ask questions which are answered and like usual pretend like we never answered them, rinse and repeat.  And then say stuff like "oh I better not say anything or I will get in trouble" over and over.  Whatever man, I know this is all an act.  

I don't know why you don't believe my friend's situation. Any how, not all the anti vaccers are loud. The one lady at church who won't get vaxxed hasn't even brought up Covid to me again since we had the discussion. I actually encouraged her to go where I got vaxxed and speak to the pharmacist. They are reassuring at the pharm and might help convince you. She said no way, but hasn't even brought it up again. So it's not like all the vaxxed are loud and ignorant. They are scared.

Be that as it may, never forget I am pro vax regarding Covid. I hate like heck I will have to get a third shot as each vax does scare me.

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