Realistic Adam Dunn expectations

[IamtheHBOMB]

Do you envision a return to the corpseball days of Thome, Konerko, Dye? Those were the worst, and people used to think that was a good offense. I'm with ya man, I hope this doesn't become Corpse: The Return. I guess we have better players all around so I don't see it being that bad with Dunn.

 

You mean like 06 when the White Sox offense was raping 'erbody out there?

 

Yea, that sucked.

[justBLAZE]

Corpseball = 2007 = Jerry Owens

[chw42]

You mean like 06 when the White Sox offense was raping 'erbody out there?

 

Yea, that sucked.

 

Don't ever look at things at a whole man. Just remember the really rare bad times and over exaggerate.

[chw42]

Corpseball = 2007 = Jerry Owens

 

And Andy Gonzalez, Alex Cintron, and I can go on and on and on...

[IamtheHBOMB]

Don't ever look at things at a whole man. Just remember the really rare bad times and over exaggerate.

 

The ridiculous comments are getting to be too much. The Sox should have won the division in 2010. Even with all kinds of stuff going wrong, they turned in a respectable record. Then KW goes on to have one of his best offseasons in his entire tenure as GM and turns an already competitive team into a legit championship threat. Yet, there is still complaining.

 

[Jerksticks]

You mean like 06 when the White Sox offense was raping 'erbody out there?

 

Yea, that sucked.

 

Yea I do remember that great first half of the season when we were the greatest team ever assembled. (.288/.354 as a team)

But then I remember the horrible 2nd half all the way through 2009 where we averaged around .260/.325

 

To describe Corpse Ball even more- during that same stretch the Sox batted around .300/.375 in games they won and a putrid .215/.280 in games they lost.

 

First half 2006 was the outlier that entire time. Twins consistently have a clip around .270-.280/.340-.350 while the Yanks are annually around .280-.290/.350-.360. Those teams don't dip as low in loses as we do either.

 

Just sayin we never look like a .340+ OBP team, even during our decade of having "power teams", except for the games where we connect on homers. And it's so hard to watch year in and out. This team seems pretty stacked but I still fear corpse every year.

[Jordan4life_2007]

The ridiculous comments are getting to be too much. The Sox should have won the division in 2010. Even with all kinds of stuff going wrong, they turned in a respectable record. Then KW goes on to have one of his best offseasons in his entire tenure as GM and turns an already competitive team into a legit championship threat. Yet, there is still complaining.

 

The offseasons going into 2005 and 2006 were much better, IMO.

[justBLAZE]

The offseasons going into 2005 and 2006 were much better, IMO.

 

I wasn't here in the 2005 offseason but was it being called great before Sox won it all ?

[southsider2k5]

I wasn't here in the 2005 offseason but was it being called great before Sox won it all ?

 

There were more calls for Kenny's firing and Jerry selling the team, than anything else.

[Rowand44]

There were more calls for Kenny's firing and Jerry selling the team, than anything else.

Eh, people for the most part were pretty happy around here during the 05 offseason. That being said I'm not sure how one would have been happier after 05 than this one because a lot of the question marks are similar and overall this team has more talent than the 05 one did.

 

06 I can definitely understand though.

[chw42]

Yea I do remember that great first half of the season when we were the greatest team ever assembled. (.288/.354 as a team)

But then I remember the horrible 2nd half all the way through 2009 where we averaged around .260/.325

 

To describe Corpse Ball even more- during that same stretch the Sox batted around .300/.375 in games they won and a putrid .215/.280 in games they lost.

 

First half 2006 was the outlier that entire time. Twins consistently have a clip around .270-.280/.340-.350 while the Yanks are annually around .280-.290/.350-.360. Those teams don't dip as low in loses as we do either.

 

Just sayin we never look like a .340+ OBP team, even during our decade of having "power teams", except for the games where we connect on homers. And it's so hard to watch year in and out. This team seems pretty stacked but I still fear corpse every year.

 

That team was victimized by the pitching falling apart. As hot/cold that offense was, the pitching was almost worse. In wins, they had a 2.34 ERA. In losses? 8.34.

 

The 05 team, which is probably the model team you're looking at in terms of consistency, had an OPS 19 points lower in losses than the 06 Sox.

 

There's nothing with building a team around power, especially when you play in the kind of park we do.

 

Last year wasn't exactly "corpse-ball" free either. Last year's team had a .625 OPS in losses. Surprise, surprise. The whole notion of "corpse-ball" is exaggerated. Corpse-ball is 2007 where the team had a bunch of AAAA players and couldn't score to save their lives. Saying one of the best offenses in the history of the team played "corpse-ball" is just incorrect.

Edited January 9, 2011 by chw42

[Jerksticks]

That team was victimized by the pitching falling apart. As hot/cold that offense was, the pitching was almost worse. In wins, they had a 2.34 ERA. In losses? 8.34.

 

The 05 team, which is probably the model team you're looking at in terms of consistency, had an OPS 19 points lower in losses than the 06 Sox.

 

There's nothing with building a team around power, especially when you play in the kind of park we do.

 

Last year wasn't exactly "corpse-ball" free either. Last year's team had a .625 OPS in losses. Surprise, surprise. The whole notion of "corpse-ball" is exaggerated. Corpse-ball is 2007 where the team had a bunch of AAAA players and couldn't score to save their lives. Saying one of the best offenses in the history of the team played "corpse-ball" is just incorrect.

 

I feel like you didn't read my post, accidentally clicked on reply and then typed all this. If one good half of '06 is one of the best in team history, then you are making my point for me. And even more importantly, if you are claiming the entire '06 campaign was one of the best offenses in team history, then that just amplifies my point louder than speakers.

[chw42]

I feel like you didn't read my post, accidentally clicked on reply and then typed all this. If one good half of '06 is one of the best in team history, then you are making my point for me. And even more importantly, if you are claiming the entire '06 campaign was one of the best offenses in team history, then that just amplifies my point louder than speakers.

 

That team scored the 4th most amount of runs in White Sox history. It's also the second highest amount of runs scored in the modern era (beyond 2000) for the team.

 

The offense in the second half wasn't that bad, they were at least slightly above average. The team had a .778 OPS in the second half, a .829 in the first half. That is a noticeable difference, but they weren't as bad as some thought they were in the second half.

 

The 06 offense, as a whole, was one of the best offenses in the history of the team by numerous team statistical measures, there's no way around that. Your point is that the team was inconsistent (all or nothing), even though they did score a bunch of runs. The problem with that statement is that the 06 team had a better OPS in losses than most of the balanced teams in the team's recent history, like the 05 Sox and last year's team.

 

Consistency of a team's offense is usually over-exaggerated. Very rarely will you have a team score 15 runs in one game and 0 in another. But when that happens, it seems like the severity of that notion is amplified. However, that's not always what happens and I'd rather have a team full of boppers than a team of scrappy Marco Scutaros any day.

Edited January 9, 2011 by chw42

[Jerksticks]

That team scored the 4th most amount of runs in White Sox history. It's also the second highest amount of runs scored in the modern era (beyond 2000) for the team.

 

The offense in the second half wasn't that bad, they were at least slightly above average. The team had a .778 OPS in the second half, a .829 in the first half. That is a noticeable difference, but they weren't as bad as some thought they were in the second half.

 

The 06 offense, as a whole, was one of the best offenses in the history of the team by numerous team statistical measures, there's no way around that. Your point is that the team was inconsistent (all or nothing), even though they did score a bunch of runs. The problem with that statement is that the 06 team had a better OPS in losses than most of the balanced teams in the team's recent history, like the 05 Sox and last year's team.

 

Consistency of a team's offense is usually over-exaggerated. Very rarely will you have a team score 15 runs in one game and 0 in another. But when that happens, it seems like the severity of that notion is amplified. However, that's not always what happens and I'd rather have a team full of boppers than a team of scrappy Marco Scutaros any day.

 

I see. You think I'm advocating that a small-ball team is better than power. I'm totally on board with as much power as possible. My complaint over this last decade, is that yea maybe we had a great offense in '06 according to Sox standards, but our team BA and OBP are consistently below the best offensive teams. Even in our best year of the decade, 2006, our offense still wasn't on par with the annual Yankee batting lines. We are traditionally horrible offensively in games we lose, which is when I think we don't hit homers.

 

I'm agreeing with ptac in that adding Dunn doesn't necessarily change our hit-or-miss offensive approach to every game. This 2011 team, although stacked, may suffer the same traditional fate of losing a bunch of games 2-1, 3-2, 3-1, 1-0. But we are f***ing stacked more than ever so I have more optimism for the offense than usual this year. But it is still possible that we clog a boat load of bases and never knock guys in again as usual.

[WHITESOXRANDY]

A thread about "realistic expectations" for Dunn is pretty funny. He's arguably the most consistent player in all of baseball.

 

It's almost freakish, really:

 

2004 - 46 HR, 102 RBI, .266 avg

2005 - 40 HR, 101 RBI, .247 avg

2006 - 40 HR, 92 RBI, .234 avg

2007 - 40 HR, 106 RBI, .264 avg

2008 - 40 HR, 100 RBI, .236 avg

2009 - 38 HR, 105 RBI, .267 avg

2010 - 38 HR, 103 RBI, .260 avg

 

So let's see, I'll go out on a big limb for 2011: 40 HRs, 100 RBIs, .250 avg, .900 ops, 190 K's.

 

Exactly. And, that's for a guy that can't play a position and has to DH. How in the world is that worth $ 56 mil. over 4 years? This is the list of things that he does well - 40 hrs. and lots of walks. The list of what this guy can't do on a baseball field is a long long list. I think he'll be a pretty good DH but the Sox way overpaid for ths guy.

[Heads22]

Exactly. And, that's for a guy that can't play a position and has to DH. How in the world is that worth $ 56 mil. over 4 years? This is the list of things that he does well - 40 hrs. and lots of walks. The list of what this guy can't do on a baseball field is a long long list. I think he'll be a pretty good DH but the Sox way overpaid for ths guy.

 

What exactly is one of the best power hitters and run producers in the game worth then?

[Quin]

What exactly is one of the best power hitters and run producers in the game worth then?

 

Twenty bucks.

 

He can't play the field damnit. At least someone like Mark Kotsay's got a stellar glove on him.

[gatnom]

Twenty bucks.

 

He can't play the field damnit. At least someone like Mark Kotsay's got a stellar glove on him.

 

and doughnuts.

 

 

[Quin]

and doughnuts.

 

And hustle.

 

I ain't never seen anybody hustle in two a groundball double play like Mark Kotsay.

[DOWNTOWN PANTHER]

seconded.

 

I'm going to add an edit. One of the things I like most about the Reds is that they hate Cubs fans as much as we do.

 

Also when i was in oxford, the 6 dollar tickets to an empty stadium was awesome.

 

I can definately say that collectively the people who live in Cincinnati DESPISE the Cubs. Cubs fans re the WORST!!

[witesoxfan]

Exactly. And, that's for a guy that can't play a position and has to DH. How in the world is that worth $ 56 mil. over 4 years? This is the list of things that he does well - 40 hrs. and lots of walks. The list of what this guy can't do on a baseball field is a long long list. I think he'll be a pretty good DH but the Sox way overpaid for ths guy.

 

Find me the players that have averaged 35 homers a year for the past 10 years. That will answer your question.

[Pale Sox]

I would argue his strikeouts make him the opposite of overrated.

[Pale Sox]

I can definately say that collectively the people who live in Cincinnati DESPISE the Cubs. Cubs fans re the WORST!!

This is true, and this is why I root for the Reds (provided they're not playing the Sox). That, and Joey Votto. I used to play against Votto when I was a youngster in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area). He was amazing then, but I would have never guessed he'd be as good as he is.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Find me the players that have averaged 35 homers a year for the past 10 years. That will answer your question.

Agreed. I think the basic idea when signing someone to a FA contract is to get a player you can't produce in-house or can't easily produce through trade and to do it while overpaying in the least amount possible. I think we did that with Dunn because his s***ty defense and the wide availability of DH's brought his price down. Compare the overpayment amounts with us and Dunn vs. say Boston and Crawford, Detroit and Maggs, VMart, Giants and Huff, Cubs and Pena, etc. and I think we came out pretty well ahead.

[bighurt574]

Exactly. And, that's for a guy that can't play a position and has to DH. How in the world is that worth $ 56 mil. over 4 years? This is the list of things that he does well - 40 hrs. and lots of walks. The list of what this guy can't do on a baseball field is a long long list. I think he'll be a pretty good DH but the Sox way overpaid for ths guy.

 

I might have agreed with you 5 years ago, but reliable 40 HR guys don't grow on trees anymore.