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QUOTE (pktmotion @ Dec 8, 2011 -> 04:08 AM) He still can't alienate large portions of his fan base by outwardly proclaiming re-building. Even though that's what he's obviously doing. This is classic marketing PR fodder- don't acknowledge you're s***ting on your product, even if you're s***ting on your product. I actually liked that quote. I've said all along as long as we are saddled with some big contract veterans it's better to tinker and hope the underachievers of last year achieve.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 8, 2011 -> 04:00 AM) Economy. Ticket prices. Parking. Prioritizing your family/having enough money to buy Christmas presents, take a family vacation OR buy an Ozzie Plan. Not a difficult choice for all but the most ardent of Sox fans. With the product on the field the last 3 years, and with how things are ending with Buehrle and probably 1/3rd of the roster, what fans would want to support that type of organization? To watch Dunn/Rios/Peavy? REALLY? The White Sox have never priced their packages to the middle class or casual fan since they opened the new ballpark. With the White Sox, it literally is about that Top 10% and corporations, not the stereotypical blue collar South Side diehard fan of the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's. If Kenny Williams was gone, you'd have a heckuva lot more optimism about the future. Still, the Blackhawks have shown you can take a franchise from the dumps of despair back to the penthouse fairly quickly. Great post. I guess the true diehard working stiff Southsider can still get into games up in nosebleed on certain nights there are deals, though. Right? Monday nights or some sort?

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 10:48 PM) Yeah, those s***ty fake fans, supporting the team at their lowest! Man you misread a lot of what I write. I meant the only fans who will attend are those on here who support a rebuild. The majority of the city will be snoozing and not attending if the Sox suck while playing the DeAza's and Flowers' of the world (and I like DeAza n Flowers no disrespect to them). You also seem to think I am such a moronic dope ... I never come back and say I told u so, but I will break that rule this time. I said Mark would get four years and I was called a moron.

QUOTE (chiguy79 @ Dec 8, 2011 -> 04:08 AM) Looks like I will be driving to Miami in 2012 to see MB pitch. I think the Marlins will be a train wreck within two years, that ballpark is not going to sell out. When you build a park in a neighborhood called "Little Haiti" with no public transportation to speak of, it makes US Cellular's neighborhood look like Kenilworth. Miami has trouble drawing fans to Dolphins games and even Heat tickets are relatively available. The news down here is that every contract they sign they refuse to put in a no trade clause so if they don't draw fans they will be trying to trade all these contracts when they go belly up. Not to mention the trainwreck that is Hanley Ramirez, that guy has the mental fortitude of a three year old...and I am sure LoMo will be pissed that he will be losing attention. Good, maybe we can trade for Mark in a year.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Dec 8, 2011 -> 03:47 AM) Ugh, now you're insinuating that Ozzie had something to do with the higher payroll. I was using that as a time frame, geez.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Dec 8, 2011 -> 03:23 AM) people say you're an Oz homer, not a Sox homer. Way to prove them right. No people say I love Wise, Dye, Jenks, et. all. Not just Oz.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Dec 8, 2011 -> 02:48 AM) Come home to see this thread and it is on page 56. Ugh maybe the athlete I respect the most right now playing for a manager I couldn't have less respect for. Did you read the interview with Oz in this edition of espn the magazine? I like Oz more and more after reading it. People that say I'm a sugary Sox homer won't have a problem with me this year cause I despise Kenny and definitely will not be defending Robin as he learns on the job.

QUOTE (Lemon_44 @ Dec 8, 2011 -> 01:03 AM) I've pretty much backed Williams and like how he is usually willing to take risks to try and win. But he has this team a mess right now. He's obvioulsy asking for way too much in trades for his pitchers and then doesn't even try to keep Buerhle. My two points of contention are why does anyone care whether or not JR makes money? As long as the Sox put a good team on the field and can win, I could care less what the payroll is. Secondly, alot say they wouldn't sign him for that amount of money. Why not? That's what the market price was for him. He's only 32 and is going to give 200+ innings and 13-18 wins every year. Didn't he just have a long streak of quality starts snapped late last year? Plus, he's great in the clubhouse. For some reason, I think if he was strikeout pitcher who threw 95 mph, with the exact same stats and situation, alot more people would be pissed. I said all along, just pay him what he wants. It's pretty obvious our team is a mess financially cause of the three guys everybody's tired of me mentioning.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Dec 8, 2011 -> 01:00 AM) When was the last time Jerry Reinsdorf "went cheap"? please, please, please answer this question. QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 8, 2011 -> 01:08 AM) Greg, about 20 minutes ago, Dan Bernstein commented on his radio show here in Chicago (a show that usually has the most critical listeners) that he was shocked at how little the Sox fans cared about Buehrle leaving. QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 8, 2011 -> 01:13 AM) I'm now officially an ex-season ticketholder. I don't like rebuilding, and the rebuilder is a clown. As for Buerhle being a hypocrite, I don't think that's right. Being a free agent and talking to other teams, he was exposed to things he wasn't exposed to before. Opinions can change, and $58 million is $58 million to do something you love doing. IMO KW is rebuilding to give himself more time. They won't fire him if the team sucks for a while. Its imperative he hits a home run in at least a couple of these deals, but I have zero confidence. He's a bulls***er. Even his talk about "interviewing" Robin while he was playing for a manager job was sickening. If he truly did that, how come JR was one of the last to know? I hope he doesn't sit in his chair too much longer. Having him re-build is very dangerous. 1.) I credit Jerry for having a very nice payroll the last several years. What I'm trying to say (poorly) is I feel (I could be wrong) that at this stage of Jerry's life, with it painfully obvious the team is not going to contend, it is easy for Jerry to revert to his old ways (prior to the Ozzie era) when the Sox were known as a lower payroll team. I feel it's easy for a rich guy like Jerry to say to himself, 'f*** it, we suck anyway, let's just strip the payroll to nothing and do a rebuild.' I should give up, cause I know I'm not explaining it correctly. I will say I'll be stunned if Paulie and AJ are on the team next season. 2.) Well I respect you hearing that. I care. 3.) Dick Allen, I love your posts and it's very very telling that a season ticket holder like yourself is bailing. I think the Cell will be a morgue this season.

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 11:52 PM) I'll be honest, I'm incredibly proud of Jerry and KW for not matching this offer. QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 11:53 PM) You are so clearly an Ozzie fan and an incidental White Sox follower. Please, just go away. I'm really honest with this. They bring you no joy and you sully everything you touch here. QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 11:56 PM) This comment immediately takes away all credibility from anything else in your post. QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 11:59 PM) I agree with the sentiment you are expressing. This has been a very frustrating season and isn't done yet as far as disappointments. Apparently theSox feel Buerhle can't offer them a quality season or four anymore. Or Jerry is broke. If he is broke then he should save money by canning KW. I don't see the Sox addressing the real issues or problems with this team. All you hear and have now seen is dump salary. With MB and Juan Pierre gone and Vizquel and Castro and also Santos we have cut around $20M plus and keep high paid non-performers. It will take awhile to accept the direction the team is headed and hopefully by ST we can get positive again 1.) Why? Letting the best pitcher in White Sox history (arguably) go? 2.) What I'm trying to say is it's now easy for Jerry to go cheap again. Team is not going to win anything and he'll gladly strip the payroll to shreds IMO. 3.) Thank u el rockin. Guys like milkman act like nobody agrees with me. Listen to the talk shows. You don't think fans are going to express outrage? Just because I have a different opinion of you doesn't mean my opinion is not shared by others, Milk. I CANT BELIEVE many of you think this had nothing to do with Mark loving playing for Oz at all. Yes, he ONLY picked Florida because of the offer. Sure.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 11:50 PM) fixed QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Dec 8, 2011 -> 12:43 AM) When you are rebuilding.. You Suck. When you are in a big city like Chicago you shouldn't have to rebuild. You re-tool thru free agency and the draft. The White Sox have signed the WRONG GUYS and KW keeps his job. Great. Hope the 10,000 fans in the stands enjoy watching Rios and Dunn every day and Peavy every fifth day until he gets hurt. Have fun with Oz, Mark. Baseball is meant to be fun and once again reading the last issue of ESPN The Magazine, Ozzie is certainly fun.

This is infuriating. When will KW be fired. Mark picks Oz. What a joke of an organization. And where was Jerry to intervene in this one?? And express Paulie-like love for Mark? Cheapass owner.

What a joke. Guess we know who Mark wanted to keep in the KW/Oz feud.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 08:23 PM) It's not about saving a buck at this point. It's about not spending $48 million over the next 3+ years. There has been very little salary moved, and even JR won't jump in to get him signed before KW sheds a lot more money. I agree, however, that hopefully he doesn't sign with an AL Central team. From what I've seen, heard, and read, I would imagine it'll be an NL team. I truly think Jerry's been burned by the buck so often under Kenny, he's now just salivating over getting the payroll back down to pennies. Sox aren't in position anymore to win anything of significance so why not save tons of money? I'd be shocked if Paulie wasn't dealt. I can't believe AJ is still around.

QUOTE (joeynach @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 04:03 AM) You are basing that on nothing but heresy and your own opinion. I show up in court with facts and figures and you bring some un-measurable theory about how having to DH made him go from All Star good to epically bad. Grow up, thats the easy way out, do some research. How did Dunn do offensively on days he played the field, or back to back days played in the field. Please dont talk to me about sports radio caller comments like ayyyy its cuz hes a DH now he cant hit anymore. How about something concrete, hes aging, his bat speed decreased, the quality of pitching in the AL is stronger, it was the first time he was looked upon as the key to winning it all, he was unfamiliar with the pitchers, he gained weight.....come with at least something tangible! I like your argument and your style. The thought of Dunn playing the field sickens me as much as the thought of him whiffing a zillion more times next season. Think about how Dunn, Rios and Peavy have ruined our team. Cause of paying them out the ass the shellshocked chairman is in line with a "rebuild." What a joke. A rebuild will make our team so irrelevant in Chicago.

QUOTE (CyAcosta41 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 08:07 PM) I've been one who has said over and over again that it's incredibly risky to move any successful, cost-effective, current big-leaguer for any single prospect other than a perceived "can't miss" or max-tools guy (Molina apparently being neither). I hope they're right on Molina, but still don't like the unnecessary risk of trading a valuable trading chip for the annointed "the one," when the target hasn't pitched above AA ball. That is my problem with the deal, but I still have a problem with Rogers whose knowledge often appears very limited and superficial and who clearly bleeds Cubbie blue. Great Phil. Kenny made a goof. Call him on that. But turning an entire column into that with the very clear implication that the winter league this year versus last year goof means that Kenny doesn't know the first thing about Molina is B.S. and reveals much more about Rogers than it does about Kenny. Fact: Marco Paddy signed Molina and knew him well during his stint in the Jays system. Fact: Paddy is one of KW's new advisors. To suggest that Kenny doesn't know about Molina is laughable and deliberately inflammatory (in my opinion) since as the Jay's GM AA has revealed they'd been talking about Molina for at least a month already. Molina dominated in winter ball LAST YEAR and at A and AA stops THIS YEAR. That our GM goofed and mentioned winter ball THIS YEAR ... for a prospect they know about very well ... in an industry where many players dominate in winter ball (I have friends who were total non-prospects who "dominated" in winter ball) ... is a total yawner that Phil grabbed on to in order to jab a GM/team that he clearly doesn't like or respect. As I said, that tells me much more about a supposed professional journalist than it tells me about a baseball GM. Have some perspective, dude. I liked this post of yours better than that last one. Makes sense. I just wish someday I'd love a Sox trade or free agent signing and someday not have utter confidence we're looking at a rebuild with the wrong guy runnng it.

QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 07:26 PM) Well, I don't know if this has been mentioned yet or if anyone heard Cowley this morning on the radio. Basically, Mark is dissapointed that the Sox haven't been keeping contact with him. He doesn't feel like they really care. They basically told him to find his best offer and bring it to them. If they can do something, they will, but if not, thanks for the memories. He thought the Sox would be trying to convince him to stay throughout the process, and really they haven't tried to involve themselves at all. Another thing, Cowley basically tipped off Ozzie sabotaging the team to prove a point to Kenny. In August, KW got in a fight with Rios, and then Ozzie. KW asks why is he still giving Rios most of the playing time when De Aza is up, and Ozzie asks why KW acquired him in the first place. This is telling me that the only reason Ozzie played Rios is to prove that KW "sucks" as a GM and wanted to stick it to him instead of trying to win. Yes, KW did acquire Rios, but he also acquired De Aza and don't you think you owe it to your team to try to win for them. If I'm Konerko, I would demand a trade. Sounds like the chairman isn't getting involved this time, probably to save a buck and avoid the emotional involvement. Bye bye Mark. Hello cheap era, White Sox. Hopefully he won't sign with a Central Division team and go 6-0 versus the Sox every year with a no hitter or two thrown in there.

QUOTE (oldsox @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 04:42 PM) True, but the Sox are in deep doodoo because of Kenny. Kenny should have gotten moved to another job and Hahn or somebody else put in charge of this "rebuild." Sneaky feeling Sox will be a mess by opening day. A dozen fans on here will go to a ton of games supporting a "rebuild." Most fans in the city will snooze and The Cell could be a morgue attendance wise this summer n years to come.

QUOTE (Real @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 07:51 PM) I have a weird feeling that Detroit is going to sign Buehrle Ugh. That would pretty much bury us with Verlander and Mark kicking our ass on a regular basis.

He got on quite a roll last year. One of the few Sox to have a very good season. Good luck in Toronto. Hate to see you go for the mysterious pitching prospect.

QUOTE (CyAcosta41 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 04:00 PM) You're kidding, right? Good column? Yeah, sure. The Cubune's Phil Rogers ... the guy with superficial baseball knowledge and little in the way of actual sources ... who forever throws possible deals against a wall (most, like Kaplan, with a decided pro-Cubs angle) hoping that just one of them will stick. The guy is a horrible baseball writer and this was a horrible comment. So what -- the generally very articulate Kenny Williams made a speech boo-boo? Yeah, boo hoo. Rogers thinks that is worthy of a column implying that KW didn't know anything about this particular trade target? You mean the same target that was obviously discussed at length with new Sox (and former Jays) front office guy Marco Paddy? Give me a break. I'm no Williams defender, but there are many supposed professional "journalists" in this town who exhibit zero professionalism by showing no neutrality and balance when they discuss a guy (KW) who they clearly dislike on a personal/professional level. As for the Sox getting fleeced, opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one. Sure, it's risky to deal a guy who has shown some success in the bigs for a guy who hasn't pitched an inning over AA on a one-for-one deal. I think this is rarely a risk worth taking because you can GENERALLY find someone to give you a bit more. But talent evaluation is equal parts science and art. Molina might be the real deal; Santos might have seen his best days already. Supposed can't miss prospects miss all the time. And guys like Buehrle materialize from the late rounds, defying the skeptics because their performance transcends their tools. KW has gotten fleeced in the past. Many times. It comes with the territory. And he's also fleeced others by picking up Danks, Floyd, Thornton, Quentin, and making sure that HE was the guy who Santos would try the "pitching thing" when he put away his dreams of being a position player. I'm not worried that the all-knowing and ever-so-neutral Phil Rogers can find people who think that Kenny got fleeced on this one. Time will tell. He pointed out that Kenny thought this guy was dominating winter league ball when Molina wasn't even pitching. And u are not alarmed at that? Santos was nasty at times last year. Weird to dump him in a 1-1 deal like many have said.

Good column by Rogers. Kenny thought he was playing winter ball year ... or did he? Rogers points out most think the Sox got fleeced. http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...,4406560.column

QUOTE (kwolf68 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 05:55 AM) If Mark does retire he walks away from the contract right. So I have no big deal with him 'changing his mind' from talking retirement to going for a 4 year deal. In fact, he may well be walking AWAY from money. If he truly wants to retire before 4 years, he could simply take a shorter deal, which would most likely be more money. MB has mentioned retirement a lot, but when the season starts there is no one you can count on more than him. Nothing I've seen so far has sullied my view of Mark Buehrle. If the Sox try to make Mark out to be the bad guy, that would be utter bulls***. He's total class. I can't wait til Peavy gives his take on this "rebuild." He'll desperately want out, but unfortunately nobody will take on his salary so he's stuck with the Sox. I'll love reading his quotes, however, when KW gets through with the roster.

QUOTE (hi8is @ Dec 6, 2011 -> 04:34 AM) Their salary together is what - 30 million? A rebuild with them on the books is not out of line or absurd in my mind. You forgot Peavy too - maybe because it's the last year of his contract? I meant it makes no sense to give daily playing time to those 2 old guys in a rebuilding situation. No sense at all. If we are stuck with them, don't rebuild for a while. Retool. There's a chance Dunn might close his eyes and swing hard enough to hit 30 home runs and drive in 110. And Rios might be interested enough if the team has a good April to hustle into a .280 batting average with 22 homers and 94 ribbies. Playing those 2 guys with all young prospects around them and a horrifically young, bad pitching staff makes no sense. p.s. Add AJ and Paulie to that mix too. Having four veterans like that means in theory you are trying to contend. You don't play those four guys with a rebuilt, horribly young pitching staff and young/unproven additions that we will be acquiring via trade.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 6, 2011 -> 02:49 AM) Until someone can give me a scenario where a team has quickly and successfully rebuilt after a complete tear down, I am considering it to be in the realm of BigFoot, the Loch Ness Monster, and Cubs World Series titles. How come nobody in favor of a complete rebuild will address the fact its a non-sequitir to "rebuild" when 2/9 of your order are named Dunn and Rios?? The fact we have them dictates we put rebuilding on hold a while. It is absurd to play those 2 when we are totally rebuilding.