Chisoxfn

Ellsbury would be a nice fit considering our manager, but I wouldn't want him to be the main part of the deal (ie him and spare parts). If it is him with some more talent I could be happy.

QUOTE(JDsDirtySox @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 01:13 PM) Did you guys see Buehrle in the dugout shaking hands with the other guys? Ya. It looked like a goodbye of some sorts. DJ indicated players get there goodbyes in but maybe something has happened or maybe Buehrle figures something will happen so he better get his good byes in now cause he won't be wearing a uni when the ASB ends.

QUOTE(NYSox35 @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 01:02 PM) I disagree. We do both at every Yankees game and I think it's a nice tribute, especially considering what is still going on in the world. It only takes an extra minute and they still do Take Me Out to the Ballgame right after. It is done every Sunday at all ballparks (do the Yanks do it for every game?) and I think its a nice thing to do once a week.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 01:12 PM) What's the estimated velocity we'll actually see from DLS? I say the gun will have him top out at 93-94. But for the most part he will be in the 90-92 MPH range.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 12:49 PM) What if Epstein were more willing to give in to KW's demands of 2 top prospects and a 3rd good prospect if the Sox were willing to take that s*** contract off Theo's hands? Would that still be a fireable offense? Lugo would have negative value from Boston's end. Yes it would. I've long said I would have no problem if the Sox are also getting Ellsburry and Bucholtz or something along those lines.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 12:30 PM) Two filthy 3-2 pitches by Vazquez. Fathom...do the Cubs have anything wortwhile in the minors in terms of catching prospects? I remember them drafting a whole boatload of them the past couple years but have any of them been doing anything?

The key guys the club should move: 1. Jim Thome - He has fantastic trade value and really will add little to no value to a young rebuilding club in the next year. Plus during that span Jim will likely become less and less reliable. He should command the #1 prospect out of any interested teams system, plus an additional good prospect or two (depending on how desperate the team is for a bat because Thome would be the best pure bat available at the deadline, imo). It would be a VAST and I mean a VAST mistake to not at least try and convince him of waiving his no trade clause 2. Jose Contreras - He has lost effictiveness and has years looming on his contract (which could still be considered affordable based on the contracts given out last year). While I think his drop in velocity is mainly mechanical (poor mechanics) I still consider now as good as a time to let him go because you want to free up the payroll and don't want to really get bit and hold onto him a little longer and end up having to eat his contract. I wouldn't expect much for Contreras, unless a team gets desperate. Or if Contreras comes back after a long rest and has a positive start (best guess is he is moved after showing improvement in his next start). I should re-iterate you are more concerned with unloading his contract than getting talent in return (however I'd let Kenny work his magic and go with a guy he has targeted as a potential project). 3. Bobby Jenks - Kenny must ask himself (realistically) how quickly he expects his rebuilding project to go through. If they plan on dumping guys and than going out and keeping the payroll at or around 100 million and compete again next year than Jenks may not be the guy to move. However, I think realistically Kenny is going to look at things and say they are more a best case 2-3 year rebuilding project (if handled properly) and with that Kenny is going to have to move Jenks. He has some durability issues (from the screws in his arm to the weight issues that ocassionally force him to throw accross his body and put additional stress on the arm/elbow). He has also seen a drop in velocity yet he is still one of the most effective closers in the game and for his price (especially over the next 2-3 years) he could get you a ransom in trade. You know that the club could than go after someone like Lidge if the team shockingly competes sooner. Either way a Jenks trade can surely net you more important and more need positions than a closer (as that should be the last piece added to a contender and the Sox won't be a contender without getting other key pieces in return and Jenks could net them a couple of those pieces). 4. Tadahito Iguchi - Iguchi is not eligible for arbitration (as he has a clause in his contract that prevents it) which means any pipe dream of draft picks for Guchi is non-existent. The reality is Guchi has playoff experience, is a decent situational hitter and despite slowing down he could add value for a fringe contender lacking something at 2b. I wouldn't expect much in return, but the more important thing is to open up a spot for Danny Richar so the organization can evaluate him and have a better idea of whether they have found there 2nd baseman or if they need to consider Orlando Hudson or someone else in the off-season. Guys you would like to move (but a situation has to make sense): 5. Mark Buehrle - I think in the perfect world the Sox could resign Buehrle and keep a handful of there starters and find a way to compete next year. However, with them refusing to give Buehrle a deal it also likely means they would refuse to give Garland a deal. With that the club should move Buehrle but only if they are able to get better than the draft picks for him. You must get a major impact prospect in any trade involving Buehrle plus a very good prospect. 6. Jermaine Dye - Dye fits a similar mold as Buehrle but there is one exception, he may not be able to get you better than the draft picks and in that case you let Dye walk, offer him arb and take your chances from there. If he did accept arb, than you accept it and hope he has a better 08 campaign and move him than. In the end Dye will want to play for a winner and if the Sox are in a rebuilding mode I don't expect him to accept arb. However, if you could package him with a reliever and get a very likely starter in a need position than you do it (see Phil Rogers suggested Cubs trade). 7. Jon Garland/Javier Vazquez - These two fit in a similar light. You would like to move one of them if Buehrle goes. The more likely person would be Garland as he would be due for an extension in a year and I would be surprised if the team came to terms with him (based on what has happened thus far with Buehrle). Garland should get you ONE HIGH HIGH IMPACT PLAYER, PLUS ONE TO TWO VERY GOOD PROSPECTS (Potentially TWO HIGH IMPACT PLAYERS). The rotation would be nasty because you will have moved three guys and basically have Danks/Vazquez and youngsters but the franchise could give all those guys acquired time over the remainder of the season and than the club could make a veteran signing or two if necessary. 8. Juan Uribe - Uribe is a valuable commodity. He will not necessarily land you a top notch prospect, but his defense should be considered a major asset for a team built around pitching. The major hold-off in any Uribe deal should simply be whether the Sox have acquired a major league ready ss in any of there other deals and if they have you should move Uribe to give that player time. You would also free up payroll again. Basically put you are clearing/ridding yourselves of most every contract via this moves in order to put yourself in a position to jump in and fill need positions via FA or trade in the next 1-3 years (depending on how quickly the process goes). 9. Relievers (MacDougall - Good Prospect and you do it; Thornton - Again you consider it if you are getting better talent in return; Logan - Unlikely you'd get the value for it) 10. Bench Players (Mack/Erstad/Pods - If you get offers and can get some lower level guys I say why not). Will all of these be made, who knows, but I think if the Sox are serious about going into a full bore rebuilding mode (and that may very well be there best option at getting good and fast) than they need to consider all of this (albeit I am basing some of this on the way the Buehrle negotiations have went). Now in terms of if the Sox want to contend again next year: Thome Buehrle (if they can't resign him get something) Dye (draft picks aren't worth as much if you plan on contending next year so find a way to get parts you like, even if it means the Sox include prospects in the deal) Iguchi Contreras Mackowiak Erstad/Pods/Aardsma (if you can even move them) The club has freed up roughly 40 million in payroll in those moves and hopefully brought in 2 #1 prospects, plus 2-3 top 3-4 prospects (in terms of a teams system) and than some fillers (either low A guys or AAAA guys). You use those guys to fill in some other holes and than spend the money to find a way to add to the offense (fill in the OF) or basically fill in what holes were not filled via trade.

QUOTE(Heads22 @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 11:51 AM) Nice av. I really like Mack as a bench player, still. A gooch hit tends to rattle a person. :uhoh PAULIE I don't know what you guys put up as my av, but I haven't had images on for the past 8 or 9 months. QUOTE(Heads22 @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 11:59 AM) I'd like to see us send down Masset and call up Broadway. Just cause. I just want Masset starting down there with Sisco.

I agree with you for the most part, however, I think in the case where Billingsley/Pelfrey or Ellsbury are in a trade that you need to be getting other pretty good guys in return (because they aren't on the level as those other prospects listed) and if you are going to move Mark you HAVE to make sure you get some stuff that is going to be here a long long time. I also think if the Sox are feeling that way they might as well try to market Jose Contreras, Jon Garland and Mark Buehrle for as much as they can get with them obviously picking up 2 to 3 HIGH HIGH Impact prospects for Garland/Buehrle and them obviously getting payroll flexibility by moving Contreras. I really don't buy into this in between rebuilding. However, if the Cubs could start by getting a couple starters for Jermaine Dye I'd be pretty damn happy but I still think you have to package him with either a Contreras or a reliever and the guys you get back will not be high impact guys, rather guys that for whatever reason were written off or have some sort of negative stigma surrounding them from there previous franchise (see Cedeno and Murton).

Owens has actually looked better this time up. I just question his bat speed. DJ pointed out about how on anything above the belt he tries to brings his hands from the bottom of the zone and up and that just slows you down. Mack continues to rake and with the way he's hitting he's going to open up some eyes as a potential tradeable chip (you could get a projectable bullpen arm for him possibly). You know a good contending team could use a bench player like Mack.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 11:28 AM) You caught me mid edit. I dont think Dye is worth much. I would love to see Murton or Cedeno on the southside. The radio has been with people talking about Buerhle going to the cubs. That is where I draw the line. Dye sure, go for it. I don't think the Cubs have the upper echelon prospect I would require to get Buehrle. I have actually started to lower my asking price for Buehrle but any Buehrle deal has to include ONE HIGH HIGH IMPACT PROSPECT (SUPER STAR POTENTIAL) plus another good to very good prospect. It used to include two high impact plus a very good one. Matt Kemp and Billingsley is my pipe dream, but I would settle for Kemp and Dodgers AA shortstop. But a deal with the Dodgers must involve Kemp. A deal with the BoSox must involve Bucholtz. A deal with the Mets must involve either Pelfrey and Milledge (because I Think there value is a little lower) or one of there other high high impact guys and someone like Heilman or a couple other lower level prospects with some upside.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 11:23 AM) There were people talking about sending Buerhle to the cubs. Yikes. The only thing worse from a PR standpoint from not signing a guy to a below market deal, would be to send them to the cubs and help them in their playoff endeavors. Dye for Murton and a prospect. I am all over that though. Oops...just saw you added this part so ignore my post above Do you guys think they would consider Dye/MacDougall for Murton, Cedeno and Jones?

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 11:23 AM) There were people talking about sending Buerhle to the cubs. Yikes. The only thing worse from a PR standpoint from not signing a guy to a below market deal, would be to send them to the cubs and help them in their playoff endeavors. I don't get it. The org should be getting the best talent available and these are two talented individuals (Cedeno and Murton) who the Sox could get for Dye that could actually fit into the Sox plans for the next 5 years. Plus you get Jacque Jones who isn't a bad guy to have around as he is a very versatile outfielder who is much better (even with his awful season this year) than either Erstad or Pods. Lets not act like Dye could get us a #1 prospect from anyone. He could have in April, maybe May, but the fact is you aren't going to get a high impact guy that doesn't have some baggage and the Cubs happen to have a couple guys that may not be high impact but they both fill the clubs two biggest needs (Cedeno with speed and middle infield presence, although he is not a great base stealer; Murton filling the OF which has been absolutely horrendous).

Rogers suggests that the White Sox consider a deal with the Cubs which would send Jermaine Dye to the Cubs for Jacque Jones and a prospect (the prospect being one of Jake Fox, OF; Matt Murton, OF; Ronny Cedeno, SS; Eric Patterson, 2B). I'd be intrigued with a package that could bring you Jones, Cedeno, and Murton with the Sox giving up Jermaine Dye and a reliever. Cedeno is a guy that is a pretty darn good defensive shortstop and I know a couple others have talked him up here. But he's also made a lot of strides down in AAA where he's hitting over .380. Most importantly he's made some strides with his walk rate as well as drastically cut down his strikeout numbers. Plus while he had a horrible OBP and a lot of strikeouts in his major league debut he also hit at least .245 which isn't terrible for a first go round (and he's only 24 years old right now). The only concern I could see with Cedeno is that this is a guy that really came out of nowhere in 2004 and since than he's just gotten better and better with the stick. If the Sox instead opted for Patterson they would be getting a guy with a bit more top end speed but he also plays 2nd and it seems as if the Sox are going to give Richar a chance (Richar is a very good athlete, much like Patterson). Than there is Matt Murton. This is a guy that posted an .809 OPS in his first full season with the Cubs (last year) and in 51 games in 2005 he did an even better job posting a .907 OPS. He doesn't have strikeout issues and has a pretty good eye and is still just 25 years old. The Cubs have written him off for whatever reason (but Lou Pinella has done that with guys in the past) and while he isn't the strongest defensive left fielder it would give the Sox a guy that they could potentially pencil into left for the next 4 to 6 years without any problems. He also would be a change of pace from the typical power hitters the club have as Murton has average speed (and can go 1st to 3rd no problem) and can use all parts of the field (he isn't a major power threat and at his best may hit 20 HR's but I think you'd project him to be more of a 12-16 type of guy). It appears the Cubs have potentially given up on both of these guys and both could come in and be starters for the remainder of the season. Cedeno is the more risky bet while Murton may not have a ridiculous upside but he will be a solid major leaguer for a long time. Plus you get Jacque Jones and this is kind of the trade-off since you are taking on a bad contract from the Cubs. However, Jones isn't even close to being done and while some under-rate him (at least on Soxtalk) others over-rate him (myself) but he would be able to come in and play all 3 outfield positions and hit for some good power at the cell. No an outfield of Jones/Murton/FA wouldn't be the best but it would be significant upgrade from the production you had this year (and you would be able to give Ryan Sweeney or whomever else was acquired via trade plenty of playing time in the mix) with them becoming full time starters whenever Jones is moved (and if Jones plays well, you could be able to get something of value for him sometime next year). The only question is would MacDougall and Dye be enough for the Cubs to make this deal (this is about the only way they can get rid of Jones without sending cash along, imo) or would the Sox have to include another part (which I'd be happy to do) as the club could potentially be getting two long term starters and a stop gap for next year.

QUOTE(WhiteSoxfan1986 @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 11:59 PM) The only thing that would make this season worse is if we were to trade for Elijah Dukes. It would at least make things entertaining. We would be waiting for a police raid on the field as he gets taken away in handcuffs.

My problem is the fact that Ken Williams is just so god damn arrogant and it rubs me the wrong way (and that is coming from me, who can be a pretty arrogant prick). I like having a cocky GM, but he almost just throws his cockiness on everyone and is always opening his mouth about something or another. Had he just kept his mouth shut a lot more he wouldn't have put himself in this position (but he told us how he was going to out smart the entire baseball world and now he's really putting himself into a hole). And I usually like his firesome attitude (at least in terms of player personell moves) but after winning the series he is just getting more and more out there and its as if he's trying to one up himself and pull off some miracle of a retooling/rebuilding job.

QUOTE(ROC Sox Fan @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 10:15 PM) Will Buehrle jerseys cost more or less after he is traded? I want one, but am thinking demand may actually go UP when he is traded instead of them going on the clearance rack. They always find there way to the clearance rack.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 06:28 PM) The Sox continue to dig themselves in a terrible, terrible hole. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2929267 This is the lowest I've ever thought of the Sox organization. They claim to reward there own but if they were never interested in coming to terms with Mark than why even bother negotiating with him. Why not just tell him he's not in the clubs plans. Doesn't Mark deserve at least that as opposed to him and his life getting completely dicked around for the past two weeks as the Sox put together meaningless negotiations. Sure this deal could turn out fine for the Sox but the way they handled this situation embarrasses me as a fan. This ranks right there with the complete embarrassment that was the White Flag trade (and while that deal worked out talent wise, it is still one of the most embarrassing moments in this teams franchise and to a point baseball history). So Kenny, as one of your biggest supporters I just want to say f*** you for continuing to be classless with the way you handle the organizations own. Please prove me wrong, but I'm sure you won't. QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 07:48 PM) I don't get your point......Konerko had a really good year last year and is now on his way to have a really good year again this year. Buehrle is 28 and has a 3 even ERA at the all star break. Our problem isn't paying really good players a lot, our problem is we have a ton of payroll spent on useless crap. To say Konerko has been a bum this year.....wow. So would I, but we won't. And if the org wanted to move Konerko they could and they would get an absolute ransom for him. Overpaid, bad contract...maybe a couple years ago when he's in his last year you could make that case but not right now.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 10:33 AM) It seemed like he must have thrown 70 balls out of the strike zone off the outside corner against lefties. And after watching replays, that pitch he threw to Morneau was horrible. I saw that Ozzie commented that he liked his velocity yesterday....just how bad was it during ST then? He didn't top 92 mph yesterday, and he got very, very few swings and misses. I saw him get a lot of hitters behind and in ST Floyd was pitching as hard as 95-96 according to quite a few reputable posters here that were watching the games both on tv and at the spring training parks (now those guns could have been loose). I know I want to see him pitch the rest of the season up here and I'm not stupid enough to write him off after one start, even if it was a bad one.

I'm watching Floyd's start right now....that curve he threw on Morneu's homer was a pretty hard good curve. The only bad part you could say is it was in the middle, but the ball was down. Either way I try not to grade guys based on one outing but I have noticed he now has a fastball that he can get that kind of sinks down below the zone which should help him get a lot of ground balls. I just don't get why he's living on the outside of the plate so far in the game (I've only gotten through a couple innings).

Pissed me off cause I thought this was going to be the one where he got past Federer and won it all.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jul 6, 2007 -> 07:44 PM) the O-Dog would be great at 2B for us... Dukes, no thank you. Hudson and Nipper for Buehrle....just shoot me now. QUOTE(BearSox @ Jul 6, 2007 -> 11:09 PM) If we could get O-Dog from Jose straight up... where do I sign up? I could see Contreras for Hudson...that I could see. I still would prefer a prospect somewhere in that deal but I could definitely live with it. I'd be stoked if we could do Jose and Iguchi for Hudson and Quentin.

Kenny may just make the moves before game 2 of the double header.

5 errors...yeah.

QUOTE(diegotony06 @ Jul 6, 2007 -> 01:57 PM) Reyes has been getting absolutely rocked this year. I don't want anything to do with him. But who knows, maybe Coop can fix him. Reyes is a horrible idea. Rasmus sure, but I really don't know what the hell else the Cards have to offer. There system is absolutely HORRID.