whitesoxfan101

QUOTE (tommy @ Jul 19, 2009 -> 05:05 PM) Come on Bacon, you could do better than that!

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 12:00 PM) I really think he needs to throw the change-up more often to lefties. My opinion is he's fallen in love with his sinker, and that's due to all the homers he gave up earlier in the year. The problem is his sinker is a lot more hittable. One thing to keep in mind when he pitches is the defensive positioning. There's a lot of holes on the field due to the "prevent" defense. It's a big reason why strike outs are so important for him. He definitely needs to throw the change-up more, but I'm not sure if he will because he doesn't seem to trust it. I would say the change-up is the closest thing he has to a plus pitch besides his curveball, but I can't call a pitch I don't see all that often from a guy a plus pitch in his arsenal. And yeah, you are absolutely right about the prevent defense point, which is why sometimes when closers struggle I don't think it's as big a deal, and also why strikeouts are so important for them. But he's been giving up some very hard hit balls in my opinion, not a lot of the hits have been prevent defense related (although one of them was prevent defense/Pods not trying to catch the ball for some reason related on Monday.)

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 11:54 AM) In 2005, Jenks had some of the most electric stuff I had seen from a pitcher in my lifetime. Now his stuff is pretty average for a closer. I think his curveball is the only true plus pitch he has left. His others might be very slightly above average perhaps, but that's about it. I agree about his 2005 stuff though, it was unbelieveable.

QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 11:45 AM) Yep. And back then, that curveball had some serious bite. Like it was definitely a hammer, especially after seeing two straight 100mph fastballs. I actually think when he has the curveball now, it has just as much bite. It's just not nearly as nasty to the eye of the hitter when the fastball is 92-93 instead of 98-100.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 11:28 AM) Why?> Because John Paxson and Gar Forman are not very smart, but we knew that already. That's why.

QUOTE (Sec101Row1 @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 11:22 PM) WTF....... Who's in charge of that circus on Madison ave. The same guy who helped run that circus on Addison and Clark?

QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 11:29 AM) Marijuana legalization is unpopular? Definitely not, there are millions and millions of stoners calling for that. It's as popular as it's ever been.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 10:44 AM) I've been against trading Jenks for the past couple of seasons, but am beginning to open up to the idea of putting him on the block this off-season (and not just because he's pitched poorly this month). He's getting expensive and, frankly, he isn't an elite closer. He's definitely a very good closer, but not an irreplaceable Rivera- or Nathan-type talent. If the Sox are going into a retooling movement next year (heck, they've already started this year), getting some high-tier prospects and shedding payroll may very well pay off down the road. And it pains me to say this, because I have nothing but respect for the guy. Doing what he did as a rookie in the 2005 playoffs takes some serious stones, and I'll forever be indebted to him for that. But dealing him at some point in the not-too-distant future is probably what's best for the team. I couldn't have said it any better myself. QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 08:34 AM) I think this thread about Bobbys velocity and slump is pretty much clockwork every year. Thats not to say I think he has been fine, but I do think he will get past it Yeah, and as irrational a fan as I am often times, I have usually been the guy defending Jenks in this thread. I can't do it anymore though, every year the price for Bobby goes up and the velocity on his fastball goes down. We're reached critical mass, and more specfically, I think this winter we will have reached the time where trading him must at least be very strongly considered.

My bigger issue was still not bringing in Thornton. Even if you are the strongest Bobby Jenks believer, he had struggled in 4 straight previous outings, Tampa Bay had shown for the previous 8 innings they couldn't touch a fastball with good velocity from a left handed pitcher, and even if you take all of those things out of the equation, Bobby had just thrown 28 extremely high stress pitches the night before and fatigue was a concern (and perhaps appeared to be a factor in his stuff last night). I'm not calling for a change in closers, I just thought Thornton was worth a shot last night all things considered. But at the end of the day, if Bobby said he was ready and was put in, he still has to close the game, so I can't really blame Ozzie. One thing I know though is I would not have left Clayton in after 116 pitches unless he said he felt absolutely fantastic, and we don't know what he said in terms of how he felt.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 11:52 PM) But even last night, Hawk was SHOCKED that Pena was able to turn around a high fastball from Jenks and hit it 400 feet into the upper deck foul. Maybe the stuff isn't as different as the hitters reaction to it in terms of the fastball itself. I actually do what Hawk says in this case which is watch the hitter, and the hitters look immeasurably more comfortable now against his heat than they did in the past.

There is a "1" next to "inbox" on my facebook account. I know exactly who the message is from, I know what it is about, but I'm not exactly sure what it says, so I am terrified to read it. I wonder how long it will take me to get the courage to click on it (I just got the message today).

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 11:28 PM) That's just it, for the first 2 hitters yesterday his stuff was just incredible. That big bender was there and he was putting the ball where he wanted, it was maybe the best he's looked all year, he ended up striking out the side. His average fastball velocity this year is the highest it's been since '06 and he was showing off a wicked curve, slider and change just 26 hours ago so I'm finding it tough to be too worried about his stuff despite how flat he was today. His off speed stuff looked great for the first 2 hitters last night, I don't think anybody would argue that. The fastball velocity thing baffles me though, because his heater has looked to the naked eye to be the worst it's ever been this year, and hitters seem to be hitting it harder than they ever have been.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 11:25 PM) Out of his curiousity, did this downturn start when he went for the 1+ inning save? It technically "started" the night before that, when he pitched in the opener of the Twins series when we were down 1 (I believe).

QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 11:25 PM) I don't think that's what he was saying. I don't either, but I've heard the old "his numbers are deceptive because he sucks in non save situations" argument enough times already. That has nothing to do with his stuff deteriorating.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 11:22 PM) In save situations: 25 G, 25 IP, 1.12 WHIP, 3.60 ERA, 8.28 K/9, 2.52 BB/9, 3 HR In non-save situations: 9 G, 9 IP, 1.78 WHIP, 6.00 ERA, 12.00 K/9, 3.00 BB/9, 2 HR In saves: 22 G, 22 IP, 0.86 WHIP, 1.64 ERA, 9.00 K/9, 2.04 BB/9, 1 HR in blown saves: 3 G, 3 IP, 2.33 WHIP, 18.00 ERA, 3.00 K/9, 6.00 BB/9, 2 HR So yeah, he's pretty atrocious in his blown saves and non-save situations. With all due respect to your as usual spot on numbers, I don't think keeping Bobby out of non-save situations is going to fix everything.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 11:12 PM) Tonight was the least explosive I've ever seen his stuff. He did something he never does, and that's throw his fastball in the dirt. When he's even moderately fresh, his fastball will tail up and away to lefties. And as soxfan1 talked about in the gamethread, Burrell got some favorable calls. It sucks he hit Longoria, cause that was a 5-4-3 waiting to happen. I wouldn't have a concern in the world with Bobby if not for how his stuff tends to look, which is not very good. I agree tonight was especially bad though, and this is honestly the first time (outside of maybe overreacting after a game, which I'm sure i've done several times) that I am legitimately concerned about Bobby.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 11:09 PM) <!--quoteo(post=1954736:date=Jul 21, 2009 -> 11:02 PM:name=whitesoxfan101)-->QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 11:02 PM) <!--quotec-->That's surprising for a guy with a WHIP as high as his is, along with 3 blown saves and several near blown saves. Out of the 9 AL closers with 19+ saves this year Bobby has the 4th highest perfect outing % in save opps (40%) behind Mo and Rivera (50%+) and Brian Fuentes (44%). None of the other 5 are above 35%. Joe Nathan: 15/27 = 56% Mo Rivera: 15/28 = 54% Brian Fuentes: 14/32 = 44% Bobby Jenks: 10/25 = 40% George Sherrill: 8/23 = 35% David Aardsma: 8/24 = 33% Jon Papelbon: 8/26 = 31% Fernando Rodney: 6/20 = 30% I guess that just shows how bad he's been on nights where he didn't have it. QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 11:10 PM) People forget how disgustingly bad his K/9 IP was last year. I wanted him traded during the offseason, and think he'll be dealt after this season. It sucks to see this happening, as he's had just a magical run with the Sox so far. Yeah I'd be stunned if he isn't dealt and I agree it's sad what is happening to him.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 11:06 PM) It's funny too cause his K/BB rate/ratio has been very good this year. He's basically Rod Beck 2.0 right now, cept this is one of the rare saves he's blown. He's had a pretty good curveball this year for the most part, which I think helps explain the K rate. The curveball this year, IMO, has been the biggest reason he's been able to be even as ok as he has. He had a stretch in June where it wasn't there, but other than that, it's saved him quite a bit. That and the slider to a lesser degree has also helped.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 11:03 PM) He needs to start getting ahead with offspeed stuff, as you could tell Tampa's scouting report said to jump on the first pitch. Even last night, Pena started the 9th with a blast way, way foul. Well that's one adjustment he could make that would actually help (I don't think he can really make an adjustment to throw harder). He has a lot of first pitches hit hard, and usually they are fastballs.

QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 11:02 PM) Take it easy chief. I said nothing about Jenks. All I'm saying is that this thread came WAAAAAAY later than I expected. I thought it'd have been posted some time in the bottom of the 9th. Well I'm sure somebody is going to come in here and tell me why Jenks is fine. I'm not buying it. He does indeed have a right to a slump just like every other player, but there are also reasons to be very concerned about Bobby right now.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 11:00 PM) Now 10 perfect outings out of his 25 save opportunities. He's allowed 2+ baserunners in 8 out of his 25 save opps. That's surprising for a guy with a WHIP as high as his is, along with 3 blown saves and several near blown saves.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 10:58 PM) Jenks is "the man" in the bullpen. With years of very-good-to-dominant pitching under his belt, he's earned the right to close games, and it's going to take several more blown saves for that to change. Tampa Bay spent 8 innings flailing at left handed pitching and hard fastballs inside all night, Jenks threw almost 30 pitches last night, and I think most people could see what happened in the 9th tonight coming. I am not calling for an outright demotion of Jenks, I just wanted to see Thornton tonight all things considered. But as I said, even though I didn't agree with Ozzie, I am not going to blame him for what he did. If you get the ball to Jenks with the lead and he blows it, it's on Jenks.

QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 10:54 PM) I was waiting for it. Came later than I assumed. Go ahead, tell me why I have no reason to be concerned over Bobby Jenks. It would be a fascinating argument I think considering his stuff, WHIP, and ERA are all as bad as they have ever been with the Sox.

QUOTE (Markbilliards @ Jul 21, 2009 -> 10:49 PM) Even if his next two outings are awful, he will still be our closer and he will still be successful later in the season and in his career. Just look the other way for a little while. He'll be fine. I'd be surprised if Bobby Jenks is on our team in 2010, and that has nothing to do with my personal opinion of the guy. He's going to be our closer for the rest of the year, but as long as he keeps topping out at 92-93 on non juiced radar guns and not trusting his 4 seamer, he will either blow several more saves or have to get out of a lot of harrowing jams.

It should have been Thornton in the 9th tonight, and I actually thought it was a no brainer. However, when it gets to Bobby and we lose, I have a hard time blaming Ozzie, but after tonight, that might change. Bobby might rebound, but the unconditional trust I have had in him since he came up in 2005 is now gone. You just can't fully trust him anymore with the stuff he has, which is nowhere near what it was.