Dick Allen

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 21, 2014 -> 12:11 PM) The Reds would be stupid not to do a trade centered around Bruce and Quintana as the main parts. If Q, let alone Q+ was offered for Bruce, Jockety would have said yes before Hahn's shrooms wore off. There were Jay Bruce is available stories hours before this thread was created. In fact, Rosenthal's column even says preliminary discussions, http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/reds-at...-payroll-112014

QUOTE (Jake @ Nov 21, 2014 -> 11:02 AM) There's always something odd when a guy was never very good, then got really good, then got busted for roids, then kept being good. Melky has always had some ability. I think his attitude has been questioned in the past. I do agree, I would think he's still juicing. Maybe if he gets a multi year deal, he gives it up for a couple years, and the team who signs him is left holding the bag. I still think juicing is rampant, and really think MLB has made an effort to keep scoring down to at least make it look like players aren't making a mockery of their testing, which is supposed to be the best of its kind. The problem is, the testing is always a step behind.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Nov 21, 2014 -> 10:35 AM) But thank you for participating. I've given up the PED crusade. If they get suspended they get suspended, but not all PED busts are equal. Q's at the age of 17 seems very innocent: http://www.sbnation.com/hot-corner/2013/8/...-ped-suspension

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Nov 21, 2014 -> 10:04 AM) No, Philly would have to send significant cash, so not adding anywhere near $35M. How much would they be sending? Hammels $22.5 million Bruce $12 million Q $3.4 million Even if they sent $10 million a year, which is beyond outrageous and they wouldn't do it, you make Jay Bruce a $21 million a year player.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Nov 21, 2014 -> 09:53 AM) Chicago ---> Cincinnati Jose Quintana Chicago ----> Philadelphia Chris Beck Cincinnati ----> Chicago Jay Bruce Philadelphia ----> Chicago Cole Hamels + cash Cincinnati ----> Philadelphia Prospects Wouldn't it be easier, and more cost effective to sign a free agent? I know he's a sexier name, but is Hamels really a better pitcher than Q? Why would you want to take on his money , or at least a decent percentage, for Jay Bruce and his money? Everyone is saying don't pay $10 million a year for Andrew Miller, but are making proposals in this thread that make the cost of Jay Bruce essentially $25 million a year, if not more.

QUOTE (CrimsonWeltall @ Nov 19, 2014 -> 03:23 PM) Most new coaches come in because the previous coach was fired for having awful teams and it takes some time to adjust, teach their system, push their culture, etc. Bears 2 seasons prior to Ditka: 13-19 (crap) Ditka's first season was crap, second was okay, then the Bears were very good. Bears 2 seasons prior to Lovie: 11-21 (crap) Lovie's first season was crap, then the Bears were very good. Bears 2 seasons prior to Trestman: 18-14 (good) Trestment's first season was okay, and second has been crap. They may all have been 12-14 in the first 26 games, but Trestman is the only one with a team going downhill rather than uphill. You're right. I just thought it was interesting they all started out with the same record after 26 games.

QUOTE (glangon @ Nov 21, 2014 -> 02:36 AM) He did well right up until the point that Lindstrom went down and Robin tried to use him as closer. Then he blew a few saves, his confidence went and he never pitched the same since. He was so bad at one point, Robin considered Dunn in the pen ahead of him. I blame Robin for putting him in the closers spot. I reckon he would have had an ok year if he'd been the 7th or 8th inning guy. Blaming Robin would be silly. Belly was the closer of the year in one of the Winter Leagues, and had closed some before. When you are down a few bullets where else could Robin have turned?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 21, 2014 -> 08:34 AM) On the free agent market right now Quintana would get a similar contract to where Lester is looking at, in the 7/$150 range or more. Your numbers are about 1/2 of what it would actually cost to replace him. You are probably right. Yoan Moncada with his bonus and penalty, will cost a team more money before he puts on a uniform than Jose Quintana will cost the White Sox the next 6 seasons.

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Nov 21, 2014 -> 08:14 AM) but if they're willing to take on payroll, I imagine you can find a "salary dump" type situation with another team and don't have to give up Q. With common trend here, intrigued by Bruce, but not for Q, unless Sox are going to make a crazy move for a SP. Q with his contract if he continues to put up 4 WAR seasons is almost irreplaceable. It would cost probably $10-15 million a year more just to hopefully replace his level, plus what you would have to pay Bruce. It makes zero sense. Bruce's best season wasn't as good WAR-wise than Q in 2014, and that was several years ago. I would imagine he can still hit, and his fielding probably took a hit because of injury, but man, Jose Quintana, if you really look at it, is one of the best starters in baseball right now and is ridiculously cheap. There are better ways to take advantage of financial flexibility than giving that away. Hahn as KW's assistant was responsible for signing Q as a minor league free agent. And for signing him to this couldn't be more team friendly extension. There is no chance he would piss that away unless maybe someone like Bryce Harper became available.

QUOTE (beautox @ Nov 21, 2014 -> 04:07 AM) I'm not against moving Q but it has to be for the right deal, but Bruce to me isn't enough. The trends on his numbers worry me, as others have said 5 straight years of BB% decline 6 straight years of K% increase. He's got 25.5 guaranteed the next three years and 37.5 total if they pick up his option. Players like him and Cargo are the right type to target but I'm against giving up such a huge piece of the sox core and taking on their respective contracts while giving up so much. Don't worry. The White Sox will not trade Q for Bruce. Q is a more valuable player and is owed less money the next 5 years than Bruce the next 3. If you are trading Q, with his contract, if you are going to take on over $10 million a season in additional payroll, you don't do it on a player trendind downward like Bruce. This whole idea is silly. Q is a core piece. He is going nowhere unless blown away. Jay Bruce doesn't blow anyone away. I have seen it suggested the Reds include a guy like Latos. Why would the White Sox take on an additional $20+ million per year to downgrade their rotation and hope that Bruce bounces back? Q put up a 5.3 WAR in 2014 and will be paid $800k more than Zach Duke the next 3 years.

Call me skepical of this"inside source". Rock, I believe.20 minutes afte mlbtraderumors comes up with Jay Bruce being available, this comes up. I would bet my home the White Sox wouldn't offer Q straight up for Bruce, let alome Q+. He is playing you guys.

There is nothing wrong with guys profiling as relievers especially these days.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Nov 20, 2014 -> 03:10 PM) He had 2 good years, one with a 3.6 WAR the other 4.6. I really don't see his Dad as much of a problem or his own attitude, If he can produce 2 decent years in the past he can do it again. The list for improving the team with decent defensive OF's is very short who also provide offensive upside. I think some of you guys are being way too conversative . Too much money, daddy is an issue . Would any of you ever pull the trigger on FA's without getting a great deal ? That is just not how FA works. DA I know you wanted VMart so we agreed on that so to speak since yrs and money might've ultimaely led to not wanting him and I know you disapprove of the Duke signing so just who are you interesting in getting ? I'm just throwing things out there that have the potential to be creative ways to improve the team . Risk is part of the equation and if we're all looking to minimize risk it sure isn't going to come from free agency. That leaves trades and where is the hope there with so little to trade currently on the roster ? I'd try one of the Dodgers OF. If the Sox sign Melky, I wouldn't be opposed. I used to be a PED, no way guy, but at this point, I gave that up. LaRoche would be OK. It would be interesting to know who all the good players available in trade KW was referring. As for Rasmus, the Sox could have had him before, when he younger and cheaper and they didn't want him. I just can't see JR signing a guy who hates Tony LaRussa and Tony LaRussa hates as much as him. His dad said you can't even say Tony's name around him without Colby getting angry. And you really wonder if the guy enjoys playing. He seems to enjoy doing well, but it is a game of failure and you have to deal with it a lot. We will probably never know to what extent growing up in a baseball bootcamp affected him. In some way, reading these articles, I feel kind of bad for him. I always assumed he was a jerk, but he seems like a decent guy who probably has some father issues.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Nov 20, 2014 -> 03:16 PM) lets just retitle this thread to "FAVORITE BELISARIO MEMORIES" The game against the Yankees where I believe the Sox lead 3-0 going into the 9th, and Belly blew the game. Soxtalk posters were actually ripping Robin for taking John Danks OUT of a game. Brings a tear to my eye.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Nov 20, 2014 -> 03:18 PM) I like that his name is Ronald. After watching him pitch, McDonald would have been a more appropriate last name.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Nov 20, 2014 -> 03:18 PM) My order would be: Wilkins Phegley Carroll Rienzo One way or another, Rienzo is not going to be a White Sox if what Cooper thinks of his pitching is any indication.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Nov 20, 2014 -> 02:57 PM) I don't really understand the Mitchell move. He had a very good 2nd half last year and isn't a proven ML failure. The Sox just chased Michael Taylor for 1 year of his services. They keep such luminaries as DeWayne Wise clone Jordan Danks on the 40 man (the Sox are a sentimental organization). They must just not like the guy. What does it matter? He makes Adam Dunn's contact rate look like Victor Martinez.

3.69 xFIP. He deserved an extention. He actually did have a bit of a hot stretch for a while, but then he got Dylan Axelrod bad.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Nov 20, 2014 -> 02:47 PM) So "fluff" pieces we can't trust but pieces knocking him can be ? Why is it pieces that look for the postitive in things are "fluff" any way ? There is something more fascinating or more true about negativity ? I gave it to you in the previous post. Your article was spring training fluff 2012. He was awful in 2012. In 2014 he blamed his BABIP. It was .294. His career BABIP is .293. In 2013 it was .356. There is your outlier. The guy said he has a love/hate relationship with baseball. It is great he is being honest, but that really isn't the type of guy you want to pay millions to play, and then if he struggles, Steverson tried to help him out, but................... And why deal with the father when he is not such a good bet to be any good? His defense was bad last year. He blamed the turf. He blamed shifts for his lack of hitting. He blamed the Blue Jays for firing the previous hitting coach, If he is this way when he is a major leaguer, I could just imagine what good old dad was like when Colby was a kid. It is so Todd Marinovich to me. Deep down, Colby probably isn't a bad guy. I saw him throw some balls to fans at USCF. I just think his head is screwed up. His dad wants to blame LaRussa. I think it probably started much earlier than that.

Here's an interview with Rasmus' dad in August. If he was a star, you deal with it. When he could just be horrid, why put your staff through it. http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014/08/05/...is-father-says/

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Nov 20, 2014 -> 02:07 PM) I just want to move away from his "head" and more into his talent and fit with the Sox . His upside, if realized, is very high and a potential 4.5 WAR guy who's done it before and is only 28 can't be ignored . If I had to pick one or the other sure it would be Cabrera but I'm greedy I want both unless it costs the Sox a chance to add a quality starter. He doesn't seem like a bad guy and he knows he is to blame more than anyone. http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/201...y_la_russa.html LaRussa too has his critics but if wins are the most important things then I guess that makes his personality a winner too. SO simple so in depth. That was a fluff article was from the Spring of 2012 In 2012 he hit .223/.289/.400 His dad being more "positive" and his being more "comfortable" didn't help that season.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Nov 20, 2014 -> 01:44 PM) Because rolling the dice represents the only solution we have. I acknowledge all the risks you are bringing up. But you've also made the point that if we aren't ever going to take any risks, we aren't ever going to win. The reason it's easy to like is that it's a risk where it is relatively easy to swallow the worst-case outcome. While Miller/Robertson are surer bets to perform, I'm not sure they're THAT much surer, and their cost/terms will hurt us so much more if they bomb. In other words, I think it's a good balance of risk and reward, thanks to its low cost. I do think you take risks, but there are some risks you just do not take. It just seems the sample size of Zach Duke's success is so small, and his performance such an outlier, when I read all the people, not just here, but writers and others who think he is now good to go for several years, it just confuses me. The other thing is since he changed everything around, his arm angle, his pitches, maybe some of his earlier success can be tied onto really not having a good scouting report. He was different. Eduardo Perez said the best time to hit is when you just get called up because they don't have any reports on you. I would imagine it's the same pitching-wise, especially for a veteran who has changed things around. The guy still doesn't average 90 on his fastball. I can't see how his k-rate doesn't slide dramatically, and those are going to increase the balls in play, and maybe a couple out of play. If it was for a year, I would think it was an overpay, but OK. The length, I just don't understand. But if they are good with taking this much chance totally blowing $15 million, it could bode well for the rest of the payroll. The funny thing is, I sort of wanted the White Sox to give Duke a shot a few years ago.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Nov 20, 2014 -> 01:39 PM) I don't think anybody is saying you have to like it, just that there's not a lot of reason to be upset about it. You can feel, as I know you do, that Duke is a fluke and it won't work out, but I think this will at least provide more utility than the Keppinger signing as he can be, at worst, a swingman for the Sox and at best he is going to be a nice set up guy. We did think Keppinger would be able to play around the field a bit better, but he seemingly lost all usefulness after that first year. FWIW, I think that signing ultimately ended up being worse than the Dunn signing, all things considered. It would all depend of what else, if anything, they would have used the funds. Since the Sox didn't really win with either, Dunn's $56 million vs. Keppinger's $15 million would lead you to believe Dunn. But they may have blown that $56 million on another bust, or maybe they then have extra funds to land Soler, a guy they supposedly came in 2nd or 3rd place. and maybe the $15 million they used of Keppinger would have been used for someone better. We really will never know unless someone writes a book.

I really don't think the White Sox want a guy who won't listen to their coaches when he is struggling. LaRussa and Rasmus hated each other. LaRussa and JR are tight. I am sure if there is some interest, that probably is a call that is made. I really doubt JR pays this guy 8 figures.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Nov 20, 2014 -> 01:13 PM) But that's the point -- a big part of why RPs are difficult to predict is because everything you see is small sample data, even though it FEELS like more than that. I am really not trying to start anything, but if this is how you feel, how can you say in another post we HAVE to like the deal when it is for 3 years for a guy who if he pitched the other 38 innings like he did his last 20, even with a nice xFIP, would be lucky to get much more than $1 million guaranteed? I'm sure there are players out there that if they had one good year, you wouldn't like it if the White Sox gave them $15 million for the next 3. It's not a ton of money relative to baseball players, but I can't see how anyone can come to the conclusion there is a decent chance this guy is pretty good the next 3 years.