Dick Allen

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 08:35 AM) When his only value to the team is what he brings back in a trade, yes. Players that don't show they can play have no value. The guy got hurt at a bad time, but to try to place blame on an injury like that is beyond silly. Pitchers get hurt on every team.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 08:15 AM) What would you consider a heavy workload for Crain? He is a one inning pitcher, so multiple 3 games in a row appearances, he had one but not in June, and lack of a breather after back to backappearances, those would be heavy. June 1 was the backend of him appearing 2 in a row, he got 3 days off after that. He got 4 days off after the next one. 7 days off the one after that, and 5 days off his last one. Are these guys museum pieces that are just there for people to look at?

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 08:10 AM) I'd like to know the reason why Crain was given such a heavy workload. 10.1 innings in April 13.2 innings in May 12.2 innings in June Just abused

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 07:35 AM) If you looked at his pitches thrown over the last month before he went to the DL, he had thrown about 100 more than any set-up guy in the Top 20 for holds at that time (right hand, not LH loogy types). He definitely had a huge blip up for about a two or three week span where he had more pitches thrown than anyone in the AL out of the bullpen. The 12 innings pitched per month stat is just an average and not a realistic look at the actuality of his workload this year compared to seasons past. He threw 230 in June. My first look was Tampa and Peralta threw 173 in June. Not quite 100. It is funny, if someone gets hurt, the manager or a coach is an idiot, he shouldn't have played. If the same player doesn't play, people get all upset about that. I pointed out DRose. People wanted Thibs fired for having DRose in a game they thought was clearly decided and he wasn't needed. Later, they are upset Rose isn't playing in games when the team realistically has no shot at a title. The only difference is the second part they weren't blaming on the coach. Crain pitched 12 innings in June. If that is too much, he is worth very little on the trade market. I think if you asked trainers, the 230 pitches over 11 appearances is not all tht relevant as he is only throwing about 20 at a time, not really enough to get all that gassed, which is what I believe causes problems with starters throwing too many pitches. IMO, the danger zone isn't necessarily overall pitch count, it is the individual games. If you are conditioned for 110, throwing 140-150 probably can hurt you. If you are conditioned for 20-25, as long as you are still getting rest, 12 innings in a month,manager abuse isn't the reason your shoulder is sore. Every team suffers from pitcher injuries. It's hard to believe with the success the Sox have had in that area, and knowing Robin goes with the organization's philosophy, how people want to blame him for this. Pitchers get hurt.

QUOTE (JohnCangelosi @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 05:31 AM) Interesting that Juan Uribe is a) still in the league and b) a bit above league average. I'm a big Urine fan. But I suspect his contract is up.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 08:04 PM) People had been saying it when he was being overworked, when he got injured and now. Crain was injured in spring training and we know that wasn't from overwork because we have been told the White Sox didn't do anything in spring training but hang out by the pool, while Ventura was working the grill. He also went on the DL last year after pitching 7 innings. JESSE CRAIN AVERAGES 12 INNINGS A MONTH. HIS INJURY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OVERWORK.IF 12 INNINGS A MONTH IS OVERWORK, HE ISN'T GOING TO BE WORTH A DECENT PROSPECT ANYWAY.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 08:02 PM) Stone's got a fever. It's Mike Huff, Northwestern grad and former OFer in the early 90's. Might I add he is terrible. Drinking game: take a shot for every time Huff says, "Oh my gosh." Anyone else notice in the promos it's "Josh Phegley and the White Sox take on the Royals Sunday." The normal guys might be traded, are already gone or are Paulie. Oh my gosh, you would be dead.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 06:46 PM) I agree with you but the conversation I was replying to DA had chose to ignore those injuries. I'm not, but are those injuries from overwork, and why hadn't one person said anything about Crain being overworked until now?

You may want to check Crain's gamelogs before you make outrageous claims of him being overworked.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 05:49 PM) In 2012, he was hurt from April 20 to May 16 and June 23 to July 23. That's a third of the season, hardly a far comparison. Was it from overwork?

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 03:10 PM) I am not sure why all this matters? You seem to be ignoring Jesse was out for two full months last year and a month (so far) this year. Still, he's pitched 36 innings. Its like 12 a month. It's not overwork.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 02:48 PM) I hate to say it, but I agree with Marty. Crain was overused and several posters had acknowledged that in those stretches in May and June where not only his appearances and innings were up but his pitches were at crazy levels. Ventura has a certain lack of foresight. Whoever had said RV has a track record is full of it. And after Crain pitched a couple games in a row, there were people complaining in the gamethread when Ventura wasn't using him the next game. It's funny how it works. You are supposed to manage every game like it's the 7th game of the WS and if you don't you are a fool. If you do and guys get tired or get hurt, you are a fool. Fans for the most part are not very realistic. Since Ventura has been the manager, Crain has pitched 75 innings. 36 this year. If that's overwork, and Ventura is to be blamed for his injury, the Sox better be asking for pitchers for all their guys. They will need about 40-50 to get through a season. And just so you know, all the innings at "crazy levels" in reality, 285 pitchers have pitched more innings than Jesse Crain this season.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 11:57 AM) It hasn't been "Debunked". You pointed to one article on them working on fundamentals the last day of ST. Whatever they did...IT DIDN'T WORK. So yes, I blame the players making mental errors on the manager, just like I gave last year's manager credit for how focused the team was. If Robin Ventura isn't to blame for the complete collapse of the player's fundamentals, focus, and mental performance on the field, fine, then we're at the "There's no reason to retain him because he really doesn't do anything positive or negative so why does anyone care" point? Take Alex Rios. He dogged his way out of Toronto. He dogged it and Ozzie benched him. He dogged it and Ventura benched him. I guess that means the problem is with the 3 managers. It's their job to get Alex to hustle, correct?

This is genius marketing. The Sox are about to make changes. They know fully well this team is not well liked, and they certainly aren't going to ask for opinions on how to shape the roster. But they send this out and a lot of fans will actually think they are making moves because they told them to do so.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 11:57 AM) It hasn't been "Debunked". You pointed to one article on them working on fundamentals the last day of ST. Whatever they did...IT DIDN'T WORK. So yes, I blame the players making mental errors on the manager, just like I gave last year's manager credit for how focused the team was. If Robin Ventura isn't to blame for the complete collapse of the player's fundamentals, focus, and mental performance on the field, fine, then we're at the "There's no reason to retain him because he really doesn't do anything positive or negative so why does anyone care" point? Hawk mentioned it, said they worked on it "a ton", even more than last year. Hahn mentioned it. Ventura mentioned it just yesterday or the day before, said it was just one of those things that snowballed. I know we live in an era where everything you do wrong is pinned on someone else, but the problem is, if you don't actually change the real cause of the problem (players) you really won't solve the problem. The Sox offense is horrid. Is that Manto's fault?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 11:38 AM) I'd be thrilled with Ventura's quiet demeanor if it seemed like it was having a positive impact on the players. It is and it has. You blame players making errors on the manager. You also claim they took it easy during spring training. That has been debunked. They spent just as much time doing the same drills they did last year. It just all fell apart. Blaming that on the manager is crazy. I will bet 100% of the people who blame Ventura when the players screw up, if they are managers in their line of work, would never understand taking the fall if one of their underlings screwed up.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 11:17 AM) I don't need a guy to be loud if his people play solid baseball. Of course not, but when people criticize Ventura for his quiet demeanor, and then mention Dave Martinez as their choice to take his place, it would be nice if they realized he is more quiet than Robin.

People do realize Dave Martinez makes Robin seem as loud as Ozzie don't they?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 25, 2013 -> 04:20 PM) It is going to be Jake's last start in Chicago as a White Sox and he wanted to give him some love from the fans, and give the fans a chance to give him a standing O. I get it. It is a classy move from a true players manager to recognize Jake and his impact on the team, players, and fans. I've got no problem with it. That is what it was. If they still were playing by the old rules he could have pulled him after he warmed up, but you have to face a batter now . Why so many are enraged is beyond me. Just like the poster who thinks Ventura is "losing the team" based on the Rios and Sale incidents. Letting Rios get away with that could lose the clubhouse. Rios' head is so far up his ass, he has been pulled before for the same thing and still thinks Ventura embarrassed him by pulling him from the game after the next half inning. No Alex, you embarrassed yourself and your team by loafing again, behavior he even said was unacceptable.As for Sale, the first thing he did after the game was talk to Robin and apologize. He understood he was wrong. Players know Robin will treat them like grown men and he has their back.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 25, 2013 -> 08:15 PM) Turn it the other way. What possible benefit is there from running him out there? Give me a cost/benefit analysis here. Maybe the cost hasn't gone up much, but what's the reward? Are you going to run him out there the whole inning and throw him 135 pitches? They weren't just leaving him out there for a righty to bring in a lefty for the next batter since a righty came in anyway. The bullpen didn't need a 1 batter shorter outing, they're not that tired? What on Earth was the goal? He had been dealing. As far as I know Jake didn't get hurt so all the complaining is about nothing. What if Hahn doesn't trade him before his next start? Should he be skipped? Everyone is always so worried about guys playing and the potential to get hurt. Thibs was criticized for having Rose in the game when he got hurt, when as the people who complained said, the game was pretty much decided. Now those same people complained when they knew the Bulls had less of a chance of winnng a championship as they had in losing the game when Rose blew out his knee, for Rose NOT playing this past season. Everyone up in arms over Peavy coming out in the 8th would be a lot more effective if, you know, he actually did get hurt,.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jul 25, 2013 -> 03:28 PM) That is not the point. He finished with a K and several pitches over 100 to end the 7th. So what is the point? If he is done with the White Sox and winning doesn't matter this year, and his value isn't affected, exactly what is the point?

Take a breath and ask yourself, does that one AB do anything to damage Peavy's trade value?

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jul 25, 2013 -> 03:21 PM) Those two starts against Minnesota, awesome. Way to earn that $14.5 million I think Sale was worse against DET than Peavy last year.

QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 25, 2013 -> 03:04 PM) Tigs fans on MotownTigers freaking out about Verlander. That contract looks horrible, but they're saying s*** like he's their 6th best starter, shouldn't be in their playoff rotation, etc So it's a lot like Soxtalk. It's every board actually. I was reading some board when Toews was having that horrid game in the playoffs against Detroit. They were saying Q should be fired for putting up with it. One guy said if Q was anything but worthless he would take the trainer with scissors with him to the penalty box and cut the C off Toews jersey (sweater)

QUOTE (winninguglyin83 @ Jul 25, 2013 -> 03:03 PM) Verlander horrible. Trade him, Tigers. He either should retire or the Tigers should just swallow hard and release him.